High arches and vocational training

[Crazylifecrazykids]

Hi

 

Another question from a newbie dance mum 😂... Ballet feet, my research tells me that high arches (banana feet) are desirable, so when it comes to vocational schools is this a 100% must? Or do dancers get in with nice but strong feet but not necessarily very high arched. Just trying to manage DDs expectations lol 

[meadowblythe]

 

There are no 100% musts for anything - every ballet school will have exceptions to every "rule."

 

If you can cope with rejection there is no harm in trying for anything.  Be guided by your teachers, and associate teachers if appropriate, as to the reality of the chance of success.

 

And to quote King Lear, regarding results and second guessing

 

No, I will weep no more. In such a night

To shut me out? Pour on; I will endure.

In such a night as this? O Regan, Goneril!

Your old kind father, whose frank heart gave all—

O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;

No more of that.

 

Good luck to your DC.

 

 

 

[Anna C]

Have a read through this thread, @Crazylifecrazykids

 

 

[Derin's Mom]

not at all.

Strong and flexible feet is completely enough.

There are sooo many aspects of a good dancer. If she can articulate her normal-looking feet and use her other best sides and musicality it will be all fine.

[Crazylifecrazykids]

1 hour ago, Derin's Mom said:

not at all.

Strong and flexible feet is completely enough.

There are sooo many aspects of a good dancer. If she can articulate her normal-looking feet and use her other best sides and musicality it will be all fine.

Thankyou... I was told she doesn't have "banana"  feet and after some research of pics of high insteps and arches, she does not have these type of feet. I want to support her to follow her dreams but worried it's hurdle that she simply can't do anything about. She has long Achilles and a very deep plie, her feet are strong and she can make a bridge when she's doing her doming excercises  but I don't know if that's enough. I don't have a dance background so it's all a bit tricky for me lol 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Crazylifecrazykids
Spelling

[Pas de Quatre]

I think the term banana feet is frequently misused/misunderstood. It isn't something desirable as it denotes flexible but overly bendy feet lacking strength. Yes they can look lovely but need a lot of work to make them strong enough.

[Anna C]

5 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I think the term banana feet is frequently misused/misunderstood. It isn't something desirable as it denotes flexible but overly bendy feet lacking strength. Yes they can look lovely but need a lot of work to make them strong enough.

 

I agree.  Actually, I find extremely high arches slightly distracting during a performance; obviously this isn’t the dancer’s fault though.  There are feet of all shapes and sizes in the Royal Ballet - Osipova, for example, doesn’t have particularly high arches and often wears fake arches (distracting when they slip).  

 

At the end of the day, as long as feet and ankles are strong and sufficiently flexible to dance properly en pointe, that’s all that’s needed.  

[Peanut68]

2 hours ago, Anna C said:

 

I agree.  Actually, I find extremely high arches slightly distracting during a performance; obviously this isn’t the dancer’s fault though.  There are feet of all shapes and sizes in the Royal Ballet - Osipova, for example, doesn’t have particularly high arches and often wears fake arches (distracting when they slip).  

 

At the end of the day, as long as feet and ankles are strong and sufficiently flexible to dance properly en pointe, that’s all that’s needed.  

I totally agree how overly arched feet are distracting! It actually can ‘cut’ the overall classical line.....

And am horrified about the whole concept that pro dancers are wearing fake arches!!! Have heard rumours (& indeed have wondered when watching some dancers where I look at the feet & they seem insanely - & IMHO -  hidiously overarched!)

RB & other companies should ban this practise as it is misrepresentation of ‘the product’, setting very poor example to those in training & potentially leading to dangerous practises such as wearing fake arches (can’t be good - particularly when still training), using invasive ‘torture’ foot stretchers (again cannot be advisable to a growing foot?), over training in specific areas to produce ‘desirable’ (??) high arches, & the worst thing in my opinion is how the OP & others are questioning wether it’s even worth their hold continuing to pursue the idea of ballet as a career if by a certain age they don’t have these (awful - IMHO!) ‘banana feet’.

 

Derrin’s Mum has it spot on!!

4 hours ago, Derin's Mom said:

not at all.

Strong and flexible feet is completely enough.

There are sooo many aspects of a good dancer. If she can articulate her normal-looking feet and use her other best sides and musicality it will be all fine.

Can we name & shame these Pros wearing fake arches? They are causing immeasurable harm in young dancers striving to measure up to these ‘cheats’

and spiilibg the artistry & elegance as beauty is replaced by freakshow!! Again....my opinion & personal taste; I realise others may like a different look!

[Anna C]

23 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Can we name & shame these Pros wearing fake arches?

 

As much as I dislike the use of (and the need for) fake arches, professional dancers are adults and are allowed to make their own choices, so I don’t think we want to encourage a “name and shame” trend.  I didn’t mention Osipova in order to “shame” her; the only shame is that she has been made to feel that straight feet are undesirable or unfashionable and should be disguised.  The only reason I know she has worn (or still does, I’m not sure) fake arches under tights is that they are visible, especially up close, onscreen or if they’ve moved or slipped.  

 

Overall though, pretending ones feet are more arched than they really are is akin to photoshopping and I do agree that it doesn’t send the right message to young dancers.  I don’t know where the idea that ballet dancers must have “banana feet” has come from - Artistic Directors? Critics? Schools? Wherever it’s come from, I wish the message would get back that audiences don’t watch ballet just for feet, they watch the whole body, the technique, the lines, the grace and the acting.  

[Peanut68]

1 hour ago, Anna C said:

 

Overall though, pretending ones feet are more arched than they really are is akin to photoshopping and I do agree that it doesn’t send the right message to young dancers.  I don’t know where the idea that ballet dancers must have “banana feet” has come from - Artistic Directors? Critics? Schools? Wherever it’s come from, I wish the message would get back that audiences don’t watch ballet just for feet, they watch the whole body, the technique, the lines, the grace and the acting.  

That’s a good analogy - likening fake arches to photoshopping! 

I sense a comment coming from my 92 year old father about the ‘fake appendages’ that he is sure many male ballet dancers use to enhance a particular region of their anatomy.....😱

I couldn’t possibly comment....🤣🤣🤣

[meadowblythe]

 

To be fair, a lot of it is the lighting - it can be very unfortunate.   

 

I warned a student at my school about the need to double underlayer given the style and colour of the bottom of his costume (grey lycra).  He didn't believe me.  But his parents were seen placing a Prime order during the interval of the first performance!

[alison]

3 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I sense a comment coming from my 92 year old father about the ‘fake appendages’ that he is sure many male ballet dancers use to enhance a particular region of their anatomy.....😱

I couldn’t possibly comment....🤣🤣🤣

 

Socks from M&S, I remember being told once ...

 

Thanks to Anna and Peanut for revealing the existence of fake arches.  Now I know of their existence, I shall look at certain dancers with different eyes.

[Peanut68]

I’d said to a friend how I disliked a certain dancer as I felt her look & performances were spoiled by over exaggerated massive arches that were just distracting & drew the eye, completely breaking what would otherwise be a perfect Classical line of this beautiful talented RB Principal....

The friend is apparently is ‘in the know’ with ‘connections’ & told me about this dancer wearing fake arches....yuck. 

Its as bad as the Instagram trend for oversplits..... a 180 degree flat line Grand Jete is truly a stunning feat..... but as soon as the angle goes beyond with straight legs drawing a semi circle line with feet above the base of the torso is not actually attractive to look at imho. Yes one can go ‘wow - how do they do that?’ And ‘gosh they are stretchy’ but does it look nice???

NO!!!!

Again, opinionated me expressing my own viewpoint! 

[Pas de Quatre]

I do wonder if the fake arches have a practical purpose which is why some dancers wear them even if they already have good feet.  In some contemporary pieces the dancers wear knee pads to avoid problems. This is considered normal.

 

What you may not realise is that in classical choeography dancers frequently have to pose for a long time,  or land from pirouettes, on one knee which can become painful. One way to mitigate that is to take some of the weight on the top of the foot that is on the floor. This can also become painful with a heavy load of rehearsals and performances. So having a nice arch pad to cushion the foot sounds very tempting.

[Peanut68]

Choreographers should compose to the real limitations of real bodies imho 

[Bluebird22]

@Pas de Quatre do you know if they actually work to reduce pain? I’m working to a massively tight deadline so I’m choreographing constantly and it’s really taking its toll on my feet, some extra cushioning would be bliss! 

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

As someone who has highly arched feet they have been a curse to me all through life. As a child I was considered clumsy as I was always falling over and spraining my ankles due to the weakness. 7 years ago and 10 years after a very bad sprain which my GP on numerous occasions insisted would just take time and physio, I was fortunate enough to see a locum who referred me to a consultant. He decided 5 procedures needed to be carried out to try to give me some sort of relief to the constant pain I was in  but they had to be done in 1 operation otherwise it would have been counterproductive. It was decided that my heel bone would be broken, bone shaved and repinned to try to lessen the effect of the arch, my achilles was cut in 3 places as it would found to be very tight which was impacting the way I walked. Ligament restructure was carried out to remove 1 that had ruptured and splitting of another to make 2. I also had an arthroscopy to clean up the joint. It took a year of intensive physio and hydrotherapy to get to the point where although still in pain, it was such an improvement. Sadly though I've now developed arthritis in the joint so I am still in pain although nowhere near to what it was prior to surgery. My advice to anyone with such feet is to make sure they keep their feet and ankles strong. I only wish I'd had awareness of this when I was a child many (very many) years ago.

[Peanut68]

Gosh that’s quite a tale... poor you to have gone through all that. 🤞🏻🤞🏻For long term improvements 

I too have recently been told my foot pain may be arthritis (🙁)....any advice on care/relief etc as really want to keep dancing wouid be much appreciated! 

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

8 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Gosh that’s quite a tale... poor you to have gone through all that. 🤞🏻🤞🏻For long term improvements 

I too have recently been told my foot pain may be arthritis (🙁)....any advice on care/relief etc as really want to keep dancing wouid be much appreciated! 

 

Oh you have my sympathy Peanut. I would say that dancing is one of the the best things to do if you can continue. I do a very gentle beginners adult ballet class which I find is helping me. Supportive shoes help too. I wear Skechers trainers and shoes as often as possible and have ballet shoes with shock absorbing heels. (I've consigned my high heels to the back of the wardrobe in the hope that one day!!) You should also be able to have orthotics made for you by your local podiatry department. I have them but due to very high arches, struggle to get them into all but 1 pair of chunky trainers. They do help though. 

I do calf stretches 3 x daily consisting of 30 seconds on each leg and heel drops on the stairs or at times on escalators to keep the achilles from tightening and then slow foot rises, rolling through the feet throughout the day whenever I can, ie waiting for the kettle, standing at the sink etc. I also swim 4 times per week so do the foot rises in the pool as well. 

The consultant who diagnosed the arthritis said the only solution to being totally pain free is to have the ankle fused but that is a very long recovery period as you are 6 weeks non weight bearing and after last time, which was 2 weeks non weight bearing and 14 weeks on crutches, I'm reluctant to undergo the operation. Also the amount of pain relief I had to take in the 2 weeks following the op was quite high with morphine, codeine, paracetamol and ibuprofen and having to inject a blood thinner twice a day, as I was an older patient having lower limb surgery, wasn't pleasant. All things considered, I'd rather just cope with the pain at the moment. I hope some of this is of help to you. 

Apologies mods, I've just realised I've gone somewhat (totally) off topic so if you need to delete this, I will PM Peanut.

[Pas de Quatre]

2 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Choreographers should compose to the real limitations of real bodies imho 

Peanuts68 - it is the 19th Century Classics I am talking about here, not modern choreogaphy.

 

Bluebird - I have only seen the fake arches, never tries them on, but they appear to be made of gel.  I wear a gel insole in all my teaching shoes, whether Jazz shoes (Bloch slipstrea) or traditional plain leather ballet flats.  It helps!

[Peanut68]

Am really struggling to picture any female choreo where asked to land on one knee from a pirouette as OAS de Quatre refers to....men yes....usually after spinning multiple turns to create a stable landing rather than a stood but stumbled one! And it’s female fake arches worn for ‘aesthetic’ reasons I was referring too....

[Pas de Quatre]

Giselle Act 1 solo

 

Here is just one example - around 1 minute 23 seconds.  If you look closely, she first of all makes contact with the floor with the top of the foot before sliding down onto the knee.  But also being in the Corps de Ballet is extremely hard on the knees.  While Principals are dancing, the Corps are often left decorating the back and the side of the stage in a pose.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Pas de Quatre
Clarity

[Peanut68]

That’s a pertinent example you found Pas de Quatre & I see she does rather go thump down onto her arch in motion to kneeling position....

Couod only view on phone but did notice very exaggerated arches....wonder if real if fake???!!!

And true too about Corps having to often hold uncomfortable poses etc....

Still, all those former generations completed the classic choreography - often 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day....without these fake arches....what are clearly designed & marketed as an ‘enhancement’, not as a comfort or health & safety aid 

[Pas de Quatre]

Yes - and we suffered! 

[Peanut68]

For your art....hope it was worth it all....am sure your audiences appreciated your gifts!

[Pups_mum]

16 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I do wonder if the fake arches have a practical purpose which is why some dancers wear them even if they already have good feet.  In some contemporary pieces the dancers wear knee pads to avoid problems. This is considered normal.

 

What you may not realise is that in classical choeography dancers frequently have to pose for a long time,  or land from pirouettes, on one knee which can become painful. One way to mitigate that is to take some of the weight on the top of the foot that is on the floor. This can also become painful with a heavy load of rehearsals and performances. So having a nice arch pad to cushion the foot sounds very tempting.

I'm all in favour of anything that improves dancers safety and comfort. I don't believe that there is anything good about avoidable suffering, particularly if that suffering can lead to permanent damage. When you look at the evolution of footwear, clothing and equipment that has occurred in just about every other physical pursuit in the last, say,  100 years, the ballet world seems rather reactionary. Tradition is all well and good but we shouldn't make dancers suffer unnecessarily just because previous generations had no alternative.

I'm currently bedbound thanks to post operative problems in my own troublesome foot so thought I would look into these arch enhancers to pass a bit of time. Interestingly I couldn't find a single advertisement or testimonial that referred to any comfort or injury prevention benefit of the pads, though I can see how they might have such properties. (And of course I haven't read everything ever written on the subject! )

But they do seem to be marketed soley on aesthetic grounds. "Like a push up bra for your feet" was a phrase I came across more than once. I would have thought that the manufacturers would be promoting them as a comfort/safety item if they felt they could. Surely selling them as "foot protectors" would make the product more generally acceptable as dancers could say "oh the top of my foot gets bruised and painful without them.....the fact they make my arches look fabulous is just a side effect" 🤣

But no, both manufacturers and users seem to be totally up front about the fact that they are purely to improve aesthetics. Is that a bad thing? I'm undecided really. On one hand, a large part of the performing arts is about people pretending to be something they aren't. Are these things really any different to costumes, make up, false eyelashes, coloured contact lenses and the like?

But somehow it sits uncomfortably with me. From observing how much pressure young dancers are under and how they strive to achieve a largely unattainable physical perfection it seems wrong that people are pretending to have physical features that they don't. It reinforces the idea that you can only be a successful dancer if you possess very specific physical attributes. It would be so much healthier all round if people could see that you can be a beautiful dancer with "good enough" feet etc, you don't have to tick every box on the physique front. It also seems to me that the "ideal" is getting more extreme in many ways - thinner, bendier dancers with extremely high arches, and capable of insanely high extensions etc. Its often said that many of the great dancers of yesteryear would not have made it today because they had the "wrong" physique, yet they were renowned for their great artistry. What a loss they would have been. I wonder who we are missing out on nowadays, and, even more importantly, what physical and mental damage the pursuit of this particular aesthetic is doing to our young people.

So are arch enhancers just harmless bits of silicone, analogous to a set of fake eyelashes or are they symptomatic  of a worrying trend whereby even some fantastic professional dancers believe that their bodies are not good enough and need to be artificially enhanced? I'm really not certain, but my gut tells me that there is something wromg about them.

[Beezie]

I know this is an old post, but thought worth a comment.  My almost-11 year old has gotten a bit of a foot growth-spurt.  Her arch has increased a lot.  And with the length of her foot increasing, she is also able to flex it more in the middle.  This shows a hint of an instep, which wasn’t visible before.  
 

I was surprised how quickly this happened and without any special training/excercise.  Sure enough, some medical articles say that a percentage of late bloomers don’t develop their full arch until 11-13yrs (and even later for boys.). It just goes to show that the body is an incredible thing.  Placing too much emphasis on physical characteristics too early may be misleading, at least some of the time.

 

As a side note, it also reinforces why to wait on pointe.  Who knows if pointe would affect that development, but maybe better to let nature run its course.

[taxi4ballet]

With increased flexibility comes the need for extra strength, so hopefully her teacher will give her a lot of foot strengthening exercises to do.