How important are exams??

[Pointe-less]

I was just wondering if anyone can shed a little light on the importance of exams for a DC wishing to go to vocational school? I've been scouring the forum and can see that it's often commented that it doesn't matter what grade you are on, but that left me wondering if it mattered at all about exams if you have a very good teacher and are getting the right kind of training, could you leave out exams? I know of people who train with very good teachers who are ex RB principles and then send their dc to another school for their RAD exams, so from this I would assume the exams are important else surly they would just drop the exam class being as they are training with such good teachers? But what if financially you couldn't afford both? Would it be detrimental to the dc if the RAD class was dropped?? Thank you

[theodore]

Pointe-less, my DS was offered WL, Elmhurst and Tring without ever taking an exam of any kind. He had a wonderful teacher, which is far more important in my opinion.

[Tulip]

My daughter dropped her RAD classes once she was at vocational school. She got a distinction in her exam before advanced one, is that inter foundation and didn't bother after that. Exams may be needed if you want to teach I think.

[Pups_mum]

Yes, if you want to train as a teacher, the various examining boards generally mandate that you need to have passed at least Intermediate in whatever genre you are planning to teach. Of course not all teachers are affiliated to a particular board or enter their pupils for exams, but if you want to take that route you need to have the exams yourself.

Paradoxically, I think exams are more important for students who don't want to go to vocational school and/or dance professionally. The higher level exams attract UCAS points which are sometimes useful, and they act as a kind of shorthand to people outside of the dance world to indicate that a student has reached a given level of proficiency, even if they don't really understand the field themselves.

Other than that, they are just a guide to what level a dancer has reached, so it's handy sometimes to be able to say that you are working at Intermediate level, or whatever - but actually  having the certificate isn't going to make any difference to whether a student is accepted onto a course or a professional gets a job.

And some people enjoy the process of learning the work and passing the exam of course.

[Pointe-less]

Thank you both for your replies, Theodore you must have a very talented DS and be extremely proud!!. Tulip if you did want to become a teacher at a later stage could you not just take a teaching exam? Or do it need to have moved through all the lower exams first?

[Pas de Quatre]

No need for ballet exams at all for Vocational school entry - most of the rest of the world doesn't do them anyway.  At any audition it is what the dancer shows on the day that counts.  

 

Exams are useful in providing a target for the dancer to aim for, and to provide a syllabus to help the teacher teach. Even though there are some famous competitions run by exam boards, in general the exams are more for those who are not going to be professional.  (I had started this when your reply flagged up Pups_mum.)

 

If anyone wants to qualifiy to teach using a particular board's syllabus, then generally they will need Intermediate, but boards will accept other people if they can prove they have achieved that standard of dance previously e.g. ex professionals.

 

Edited for typo

Edited August 5, 2015 by Pas de Quatre

[anondancer_15]

I would say that non syllabus classes are much more useful and valuable than exam work, as I think it better prepares you for auditions where you have to pick up combinations etc.

[invisiblecircus]

Pointe-less, I love your username in the context of this thread!

 

As others have said. Exams absolutely not necessary for entrance to vocational school or to be a professional dancer.

 

If you want to be a registered teacher of a particular exam board, you usually need to pass intermediate plus teaching exams. You do not have to take the lower grades but I think that most if not all of the major examining bodies require you to pass intermediate before taking the teaching exams.

 

Sometimes, summer schools or youth companies will ask you to state what grade you're in when you apply, but this is just to get a better idea of your level.

[pas de chat]

My view on exams is that they help get you the interview/audition then the job/school place is purely down to how well you perform on the day and more importantly IMO whether they feel you are the right person for them. 

[Kate_N]

A member of my family was admitted to one of the world's top training schools with no ballet exams. They didn't like the students studying for syllabus-oriented exams once there, as they felt that this was too restrictive & didn't prepare students for professional life as a ballet dancer. My relative had a very good career!

[Pointe-less]

Hehehe invisiblecircus yes my name is proving quite relevant looking at the answers everyone has given ????

 

This has been very interesting reading, thank you everyone for your replies!!

[Waitingmum]

I would certainly agree with the above thoughts.

Not sure what age your DC is or where they are hoping to audition for? my dd is starting year 7 at White Lodge this September and there seemed to be quite a variation of exam levels achieved by audition time. The most interesting thing was that all successful candidates, except for those from abroad, were all JAs!!

[Harwel]

I actually like exams. I think there are far too many teachers out there who are under qualified and just set up a school and begin to teach. I think a regulated structure is important for young children and it gives a base to develop from. I also have a problem with people thinking that ex professional dancers are the best teachers. In my rather lengthy experience this is not necessarily the case - a gifted dancer is one thing a gifted teacher is something else entirely, they do not necessarily sit well within the same person. There is a huge difference between giving a class and teaching a class. I do not look for principle dancers teaching my son, I look for industry experienced teachers with exemplarary qualifications in teaching and a proven track record of successful, happy children.

 

It is of course true that to be a professional dancer, you do not take your exam certificate on stage with you but all those dancers have gone through a training regime which is thorough and well thought out. RBS no longer do exams, but they have a set structure with assessments which children either pass or fail. For students not under such a specialised training scheme, set exam boards offer an important structure and thorough assessment structure. A distinction at advanced 2 at 16 is absolutely no guarantee of professional sucess as it takes no account of the look of the dancer or certain physical attributes, which like it or not is essential to a career in ballet.

 

Being a JA is also no guarantee of future sucess as a professional nor not being a JA as detrimental. I was only speaking to a lady at the weekend who's dc is at WL and was never a JA and I know of a dc going to upper school who was refused JA let alone a place at WL.

 

Find the best teacher for your child, go with your gut instincts and try to drown out the chatter around you. If your child is happy and progressing well, with self confidence then they will do the best they can.

 

I also think that unset classes are essential so as not to become set in a rigid format. Being able to pick up choreography quickly is vital and needs to be developed from a young age. Best mix is exam work with free work classes and plenty of point work for girls so that they develop strong feet and ankles.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Harwel

[annaliesey]

How disheartening to read this thread .. All this time and money spent towards working for exams when ultimately it doesn't seem to matter much

[Harwel]

Good training matters a great deal and mostly, in this country, up until the age of 16 that would mean following a registered teaching body syllabus with a caring, knowledgeable teacher. This changes slightly if you are at vocational school. After 16, with full time training there is no real need to continue with exams unless you like the process of exams and may wish to teach in future with a registered body. And let's face it, a huge percentage of children do not set out to be dancers or have the ability, so to achieve exams along the way is good for self esteem and self development.

[angel]

Exams are good for younger and non vocational students because they give a goal to work towards and feedback from someone from outside of the ballet school.

Vocational students have assessments at least once a year which indicate what the DC's strengths and weaknesses are. Exams and assessments serve as a way of having a snapshot of technique, performance and musicality etc at that point in their training showing areas to work on.

It is never time or money wasted.

[Kate_N]

Harwel, your points are of course absolutely right. But there are big "howevers" in following the exam route.

 

There does need to be a balance of free work and syllabus work. I see young adult students who've only done syllabus work in a very regimented way, and they fall apart in an open class. They don't get enough training in picking up combinations and so on.

 

I'd also say, just from my own experience in doing class for longer than I care to say   that a teacher trained through any of the syllabus systems, but with no professional experience, just doesn't cut it for me. I think it's probably different with young children, but I've done class with both (for example) RAD trained teachers with little or no professional experience as dancers, and retired professionals with little or no teacher training, and frankly, the latter are far better teachers. But as I say, this is probably different for children and young teens. However, there are then difficulties in the transition to more serious work, if there are ambitions for vocational school and professional training.

 

Cross-threading, the lack of experience of a teacher in the profession might lead to the difficulties of knowing where one's child places in terms of achievement re going to vocational school.

 

Caveat - I think my view is influenced by first learning ballet from one of those little suburban dance schools with a teacher who had the RAD Solo Seal, but absolutely no professional experience, and a very limited view of ballet really. When I started doing open class while at university in professional studios, I had to relearn so much.

[Pas de Quatre]

You can compare dance exams to music exams in a way.  My class pianist also teaches piano pupils privately.  Some of them she enters for exams, and some prefer not to take exams or to learn the set pieces.  In both dance and music there is a whole world outside the exam system.

 

Most of the professional dancers (current or ex) that teach at summer schools have no formal teacher qualifications from the exam boards, but they are among the best teachers around.

[Ballet_Is_King]

Exams are useful, but ultimately not important as a prerequisite for vocational training to work in the profession.

 

I prefer to use syllabus in a balanced way, with a mix of syllabus and freework classes. For a hobby or pre-vocational dance school, I believe that produces the best results.  Anyone with an understanding of Cecchetti will agree with me that his methods are still very much relevant to the dance profession today. And as the maestro taught, the best way to train a dancer is with a combination of set work and free work (unseen enchainements), a principle that underpins all good ballet teaching methods.

 

So the set work, which in my case is the syllabus, allows the children to focus on the body. Once they have learnt the sequences securely, they are then able to completely concentrate on using their technique and working their body to the fullest. Free work then trains the mind, teaching the children to learn quickly and be adaptable and mouldable. And that's not only about learning enchainements quickly, it's also being able to listen to and respond to music, finding the correct tempo and rhythm for an exercise. Then they also have to put the correct artistry on top, thinking about mood, presentation and so on.

 

I have to say though, that I would never criticise any dance teacher who only teaches syllabus/exam ballet. Some people would say it is easier, but to do it well, it is not! A good syllabus teacher can produce results just as outstanding as someone teaching only free work. Their skill lies in taking the structure the syllabus provides and putting the meat on the bones. They break down the exercises into their component parts and then come up with ingenious ways to teach and develop the technique, free of the burden of having to create the enchainements themselves. I've seen syllabus teachers with no other ballet experience who have been outstanding and I've seen professional ballet dancers who are absolutely shocking as teachers. Does professional experience help, yes, but not having it will not stop a great teacher from being great.

 

But back to the point... and syllabus exams are useful as a marker for a child's training level, and even vocational schools do give them a nod. When they see an application form with an Intermediate exam pass, they know they can safely assume that the 'candidate' has been taught X, Y and Z, irrespective of the exam board. Sometimes this can be a better guide than simply knowing how many years a dancer has been training for. It's nothing more than a benchmark, but vocational schools do appreciate it. And certainly for a vocational musical theatre school, there are Brownie points for having Intermediate exams under your belt.

 

I've often had conversations with people about the relevance of syllabus/exam dancing and I look at it this way. If you take the RAD as the example, over the last 10 years it has seen an unprecedented level of growth in membership numbers. The biggest growth has been from new members overseas, not in the UK! So while Britain remains one of the few countries to have an established tradition of syllabus/exam dancing, other countries are catching on. The RAD is already big in Japan and now it's new major market is China. There is a well established tradition of ISTD exams in Canada, in fact the training at the National Ballet Schools used to be based on the ISTD syllabus, and the children there still do ISTD exams. And whilst British syllabus has never been widely used in America, the new ABT curriculum has been a massive success since it was launched a few years ago. 

 

So all in all, I think syllabus/exam dancing is growing in importance these days. 

 

Sorry for the long waffling post, just find this a particularly interesting topic.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Ballet_Is_King

[Vonrothbart]

The answer to the OP question, has to be no, of course not. A dancer who's intention to go to a vocational school, will surely be either successful or unsuccessful depending on the audition and what the panel see and decide. I personally don't think exams are a complete waste of time, as it gives the child a little experience, a bit like an audition, only you do get feedback. I also believe that in any sport, an ex professional certainly won't always make the best teacher, although some will if they have the talent to pass on their knowledge.   

[Harwel]

It is a fascinating subject and I'm sure we are all influenced by our own personal experiences. Some of the best teachers I have had where those that didn't find everything easy, they had to find ways to make things work and they treat their students as a puzzle and search for answers. These can be ex professionals or not.

 

I do think a distinction needs to be made between children learning from the ground up, vocational students of 16+ and adults taking open class. All will need, and be looking for something different. A serious ballet student of 11+ should also be attending a good associate scheme at the weekends so they can mix with other tallented students and work outside of a syllabus.

 

Some teachers have a great ability to understand physical requirements and potential. They do not have to have been a professional dancer to do that. They have to have a good eye, awareness and go around a lot, looking at students at vocational schools, watching associate classes etc. Some ex professionals have no idea of potential, if it's not there in front of them, they wouldn't know how to bring it out - I am thinking of a very dear friend of mine particularly who was a wonderful dancer but thank the Lord realised teaching was not for her!

[Guest]

You can compare dance exams to music exams in a way.  My class pianist also teaches piano pupils privately.  Some of them she enters for exams, and some prefer not to take exams or to learn the set pieces.  In both dance and music there is a whole world outside the exam system.

 

Most of the professional dancers (current or ex) that teach at summer schools have no formal teacher qualifications from the exam boards, but they are among the best teachers around.

 

There is some truth in this as there are many parallels in dance and music. But, and its a quite a big but, there is no equivalent to vocational exams in music, only the grades and its not unknown for a talented musician to achieve grade 8 distinction standard by the time they leave primary school, especially if they began playing at an early age. They may say that they don't bother with exams when what they mean is that their development as a musician has gone way beyond the examination system, and what they really care about is getting in to NYO or to RCM associates. With dance, especially ballet, rate of progression is also driven by physicial development, such as the age at which girls can go on pointe so its not quite the same.

 

As for dance exams, of course they matter to non vocational students, as, if nothing else they provide a focus to ensure that the material has been properly learned, and a good exam result is always a great confidence booster.At the same time I don't think anyone would suggest that 'just doing the syllabus' is the same as learning to be a great dancer anymore than passing your driving test will earn you a place in a Formula one team. Most children dance recreationally and do a lot of other activities, but for the crazy hard core ballet kids (and you know if you've got one of those), then the syllabus work alone would never be enough for them anyway.

[JulieW]

Very interesting thread.

 

I agree with the points that if students are going to vocational school, hoping to be professional dancers, then exams don't really matter.

 

But just wanted to add that from my experience with my younger two children who didn't go to vocational school, or want to be professional dancers, one of them loved doing exams (enjoyed the preparation, the buzz from the actual exam, and then the feeling of achievement when she got her results) and the other couldn't see the point of them at all and carried on throught some grades without taking the exams.  They were exactly the same about their music lessons.

 

Eldest (who is now a professional dancer and went away to WL in year 7) did take some RAD and Cecchetti exams while at voc school, but really only so they were eligible to enter various competitions where that was a pre-requisite.  His intermediate levels would be useful if he wants to go into teaching I suppose (he doesn't at the moment!), but having a distinction in an exam doesn't make him a more employable dancer.  (My daughter's an example of that too I suppose, but the other way round - fantastic exam results, but there's no way she'd be able to be a professional.  Her exams and festival experience however did look good on her UCAS statement for vet school applications!!)

 

Sorry - I've gone off on a tangent 

[Pas de Quatre]

Actually I would disagree that there is no equivalent to Vocational exams in music - music Grades 6, 7 & 8 are very advanced and more of a parallel to Vocational ballet exams, than to ballet Grades 6, 7 & 8.  These higher ballet Grades are really are only aimed at recreational dancers even if some people do take them alongside the Vocational exams.  The RAD introduced them for once a week pupils who couldn't achieve the standard for Vocationals but still wanted to take exams, whereas to reach the standard for Vocational exams more classes per week are necessary (but not all syllabus ones).

[RuthE]

Actually I would disagree that there is no equivalent to Vocational exams in music - music Grades 6, 7 & 8 are very advanced and more of a parallel to Vocational ballet exams, than to ballet Grades 6, 7 & 8.  These higher ballet Grades are really are only aimed at recreational dancers even if some people do take them alongside the Vocational exams.  The RAD introduced them for once a week pupils who couldn't achieve the standard for Vocationals but still wanted to take exams, whereas to reach the standard for Vocational exams more classes per week are necessary (but not all syllabus ones).

 

I'll start by saying I know nothing about ballet exams so hope this isn't too off-topic!

 

I think I'd agree that the upper three grades of music exams (ABRSM ones at least) are seen as falling into a different category from Grades 1-5 - this is perhaps acknowledged by having Grade 5 Theory as a prerequisite to taking them.  On the other hand, I'd tend to think of DipABRSM, LRSM and FRSM (the three levels of diploma above ABRSM Grade 8) as being the vocational levels.

 

On the other hand, I know a lot of musicians at pretty much all amateur and professional levels, and while for instrumental study it's common even for serious amateurs to go through the whole graded process at least up to DipABRSM, most of the professional singers I know didn't get as far as Grade 8 with it but went on to pursue full-time vocational study.  I think the main difference with singers is that serious study tends to start at a much later age than with either classical ballet dancers or instrumentalists, and once somebody has left full-time education it's rarer to continue with strict syllabus study.

[Kate_N]

Nothing to add except that I find myself nodding along with all these posts, even though there are differences of opinion & experience - there's so much knowledge here! Maybe that means that in ballet, as in life, there are no absolutes? That it's not "Exams are the best way to be taught" or "Exams are useless" but a mix and a balance ...

 

Cliches'r'us!

Edited August 6, 2015 by Kate_N

[Miracle]

I think its a question of balance.

Everything in moderation.

Always remember there are many ways to Rome.

Rome was not built in a day.x

[primrose]

My daughter has a folder full of exam certificates from primary to advanced 2 all in ballet, modern and tap. I think each of these exams cost around £30 and more for vocational exams. When she went off to vocational school at age 11 and upper school at 16, none of these exams made a jot of difference. If I had my time over again, I would not spend my money on exams. When I think back to the anxiety of the exam and then the anxious wait of the results. When getting an A or distinction wasnt good enough as other parents would then want to know the actual mark just to see who had done better. I would prefer my child to not attend a syllabus class at all.

[Ballet_Is_King]

 none of these exams made a jot of difference

 

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post as such, because exams are not necessarily going to suit everyone in the long run, but I would never completely disregard the benefits they do bring. I've had this discussion with a friend of mine who has taught at a vocational level and now also teaches for JAs, and she pointed out that when it comes to annual assessments, the kids who have done exams before, always cope much better with the pressure than the ones who haven't and the added confidence does give them the edge. So exams do have their advantages. It's the same with dance festivals. There are some people who absolutely refuse to accept that there is any benefit to be gained from doing competitions. But I have seen it consistently throughout my dancing life, that the children who have done competitions tend to be much better prepared for the demands of vocational training and then the profession, than those who haven't. Does it have its downsides? Absolutely, but again it goes back to the same thing... it's all about balance!

[annaliesey]

Urghhh

 

That's how I feel reading this

 

When I think of all the hours, money, travel, mummy-drama especially ... who is doing exams and when, teacher getting enough students to run an exam session, getting entries in before cut off, meeting the "recommended hours" and remembering the minimum ages for grades

 

... What a load of faff if it isn't extremely useful!!

 

I know you've all said about balance but honestly our whole ballet world seems to revolve around grades and exams

 

Thankfully we've started EYB and CAT scheme starting next month and DD really enjoyed classes at Pineapple so perhaps we are naturally moving away from syllabus .. Maybe it's a natural evolvement but it makes you think about all the effort that goes in to working with syllabus

[annaliesey]

I think each of these exams cost around £30

I think I paid £50 for last RAD exam

[primrose]

Add up the cost of these exams. A child can still follow a syllabus class if they want to without actually doing the exams. The cost of the exams could go towards private lessons and for those talented enough associate classes etc.

[annaliesey]

We don't get much choice with exams to be honest as otherwise child doesn't get to move up to next class

 

DD wants to do exams as wants to have grade 6 at least for teaching (she's 11 but already decided that as someone told her she needed grade 6)

 

There's audotions advertised too as "minimum grade 3" ballet and tap (billy Elliott ballet girls) and I don't know if they mean working at that level approx or if they want to see proof. I don't think it's proof as someone I know wasn't grade 3 tap and got in.

 

I presumed that when auditions say stuff like this that they must have an idea of what's been covered in syllabus levels ?