How important are exams??

[tutoo2much]

Julie W,

I am curious, how interested or impressed are top universities by a pupil's extra-curricular activities? I know your Dd is doing a very competitive course and must have had fabulous academic grades, but I wonder how much of an edge her dance experience gave her. I did read somewhere that top universities discount hobbies like music and , simply because it puts children from less well off backgrounds at a disadvantage.

[Kate_N]

 as other parents would then want to know the actual mark just to see who had done better.

 

This is telling. I suppose if parents know nothing about ballet (or the theatre world generally), there's a security in exams. But the competitive parenting you describe must have been tough (I saw it myself in my youth). It's hard to simply stick with the path that you feel is right for your children & family in the face of such rivalry. But it really is such a waste of energy!

[Harwel]

A waste of energy and completely unnecessary. I never get drawn into that c..p!

[Kate_N]

how interested or impressed are top universities by a pupil's extra-curricular activities? I know your Dd is doing a very competitive course and must have had fabulous academic grades, but I wonder how much of an edge her dance experience gave her. I did read somewhere that top universities discount hobbies like music and , simply because it puts children from less well off backgrounds at a disadvantage.

 

University academic here at a "top" university (whatever that means <grin>) teaching in a humanities subject - we really don't look at the level of achievement, and it certainly wouldn't change our opinion around grades. You still need those A grades at A Levels for us. But we still interview, so if there were something pertinent in the personal statement about the way ballet interacted with the academic subjects (eg a sense of history, learning and appreciating a complex art) for a relevant course, I might ask about that, and probe a little. But the applicant would have to make relevant and pertinent connections. I'm not impressed by a Distinction at Grade 8 etc etc etc I don't teach in a Music degree however; I think there, the achievement of a particular level is indicative of competency for the study of the practical elements of a Music degree.

 

And of course a BA in any kind of dance is going to be different again. But I imagine the audition will be crucial there, as for drama school.

 

All your experiences of the stress etc over exams seems as though the tail is wagging the dog: the point of a widely disseminated graded syllabus (RAD or Cecchetti for example) is to give an indication of the pattern and progression of study. The exams simply offer moments of assessments of progress in the long & complex process of learning this beautiful wonderful challenging art. They're not the be all and end all, but it must be hard to remember that in an exam-oriented school.

[ParentTaxi]

Have read this with interest, as DD is a non-vocational student who takes exams, and is at a school where no lessons (apart from private lessons and 'festival groups') are 'unlabelled' with their level (so there are no specific 'non syllabus' classes).

 

However, on the other hand, it is a wholly ISTD school, so free work is a component of exams at all levels, and it is something that the school takes very seriously.

 

My observation is that the structure of 'ladder of exams' gives a useful 'backbone' to the training, both to the students and to the teaching. The overall average level of exam marks also gives a useful indication of the quality of that training, to those of us who know nothing about dance, because they give an 'outsider's' view of the quality of the dancing. I mean, whether a particular child gets a pass, merit or distinction on a specific day is not really what I'm looking for - but an overall observation that distinctions are very common, merits rarer, and passes unheard of in school A, and that only passes are ever obtained by school B, gives some indication of relative 'rigour', if that makes sense? School B might still fit a specific child much better than school A, but to dance ignoramuses like me, the 'exam profile' is one piece of evidence.

[ParentTaxi]

I should clarify that i know some absolutely excellent teachers / schools will concentrate less on exams and so not have exam results available to compare. And that if you are an 'in the know' parent / dancer, you will have other ways of gauging the quality of the teacher and school.

 

However, for those of us who have no experience of dancing and are learning the process along with our children, exam results are one source of information that enable us to compare available schools.

[t_rose]

DD does exams & has had to pass one to move to next level (at previous studio anyway). She has just moved studios, will still do exams, but they do a lot more performance work which is an area she needs to get more experience in.

I (as a non dancing mum) have found grades useful as I can see progress, expensive (last one was £70+) but I now realise (partly as a result of researching MT post 16 courses and other threads on here) that they are only a guide and there are other important skills that grades won't necessarily teach.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I find it incredibly sad that there are still schools that won't allow children to progress to the next level without taking the exam.

 

I gave up dancing (ballroom & Latin) at age 12 for exactly this reason as I was unable to take exams of any kind for medical reasons.

 

I ended up in a class of much children working at a lower level than I had been used to covering work I'd done 12 months previously.

[tutoo2much]

Thank you Kate N. That is helpful to know and what I suspected. I guess for academics it really is all about the grades,

[Lildancer96]

If I remember right ,RAD Adv 2 was about £120. You get a discount if you are a member of the RAD.

Many students are successful without ever taking an exam and many with distinctions as Julie said, wouldn't be suitable for a career in ballet. We paid for these to allow entry to various high profile competitions including Genee; insisting that entrants have distinction in RAD exams to enter these competitions does of course mean there is an acceptable level of competence but also excludes many very talented dancers who haven't opted to take exams.

Inter and Adv 1 attract Ucas points which may one day be useful, although many universities ask for points to be from 3 core subjects and don't allow add on amounts .

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I think that its a different issue with regards to Genee. It Is an RAD competition so asking for a certain rad exam to have been passed isn't unreasonable in the same ways Janet Cram is for ISTD modern candidates.

[amum/Cathy]

Inter and Adv 1 attract Ucas points which may one day be useful, although many universities ask for points to be from 3 core subjects and don't allow add on amounts .

Adv foundation attracts ucas points but not Adv 1 as it is too advanced! It counts as a first year higher education qualification - someone kindly posted about it for me on here. I will try to find link. Ds is in process of completing his UCAS form and can only put it in his personal statement there isn't anywhere else he can enter it.

[amum/Cathy]

http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/9887-ucas-pointsnqf-level/?hl=%2Bucas+%2Bpoints

[Lildancer96]

I think the only time those points are likely to count is for courses such as open university where you total up points from different modules.

I wonder if it works in the same way as AS levels which you can no longer use points from if you then do an A level in the same subject . So , if you take adv foundation can you no longer use inter points ??

[Pups_mum]

I think you have to keep things in perspective. Nobody is suggesting that if you are planning to study a subject that requires grade A at A level maths but you get a D, that points gained from ballet exams would make up the difference. Obviously for academic subjects you are going to need the core academic qualifications. But lots of people can achieve those and other ways to differentiate may be required. Certainly in courses that ultimately a training students for people facing careers they are looking for well rounded individuals with interests beyond the purely academic. My DD has primary school teaching as her Plan B and everything I have found out about that suggests that achievement in areas like dance, music,sports and so on are seen in a very positive light when applying for training in that sphere.

I certainly don't feel that what DD has achieved in her dance exams, or her brother in his music exams is pointless, but I'm not deluded into thinking they will get them into Oxbridge if they fail their A levels. As ever, it's all about balance.

[youngatheart]

The overall average level of exam marks also gives a useful indication of the quality of that training, to those of us who know nothing about dance, because they give an 'outsider's' view of the quality of the dancing. I mean, whether a particular child gets a pass, merit or distinction on a specific day is not really what I'm looking for - but an overall observation that distinctions are very common, merits rarer, and passes unheard of in school A, and that only passes are ever obtained by school B, gives some indication of relative 'rigour', if that makes sense? School B might still fit a specific child much better than school A, but to dance ignoramuses like me, the 'exam profile' is one piece of evidence.

 

Sorry but that isn't necessarily the case at all!

 

School A may only permit their "better" students to enter for any exams, so that those students who could have got a pass or low merit were not even permitted to try, whereas another may enter (or offer entry to) every student once they have achieved their "personal best" standard at that Grade.

 

I would only have concerns if there were no (or very few) high merits & distinctions awarded to anyone, which would indicate either that students were being rushed through the syllabus too quickly, or that the quality of teaching was poor.

[Ballet_Is_King]

 

I would only have concerns if there were no (or very few) high merits & distinctions awarded to anyone, which would indicate either that students were being rushed through the syllabus too quickly, or that the quality of teaching was poor.

 

 

This is a good comment and points to the purpose of dance teaching associations and the whole concept of the syllabus/exam format. No exam board has ever claimed that their exams are 'important', at least not to my knowledge. What they do claim however, is that they exist to improve the standard of dance TEACHING, through teacher training and promoting positive and up to date teaching knowledge and practices. Exam results actually do a lot more to reflect the teacher's ability than the child's. We all know that one exam result for one child is simply a snapshot of the level they achieved on that given day, but when you take all the results from a session as a broad picture of the standard of the dance school, they become much more useful. 

 

Of course we are all aware that even if a school offers exams, it may not always be an option for everyone. But even if exams are only offered to the highest achievers in a school, the emphasis is still on the teacher to maintain a consistent standard of teaching to ensure that all those students achieve high merits or distinctions. Again, we all know that some children are born with talent and will likely excel even with a mediocre teacher, but if a dance school is consistently pumping out high merits and distinctions in exams, it's a safe bet that the teacher is at least half decent. And even if those results are only based on the best students in the dance school, it's still fairly safe to assume that the standard of teaching must be at least competent across the board.

[ParentTaxi]

"I would only have concerns if there were no (or very few) high merits & distinctions awarded to anyone,"

 

Apologies - that was what i weas trying to describe in my 'School B' example - in fact a smaller number of entrats from a bigger school, but with almost no Merits and zero distinctions.

 

As the list from School A was about 60 students per term from what seemed to be tiny premises (I now know them to be something of a Tardis, but still only 3 studios), although the possibility of only entering selected higher ability students hadn't occurred to me, the simple numbers per term, all at merit / Distinction in all genres, was a decent basis for comparison, all else being equal and me being an ignoramus about all things dance!

[Dance*is*life]

How disheartening to read this thread .. All this time and money spent towards working for exams when ultimately it doesn't seem to matter much

Please don't feel like that!  I put children in for exams because it makes them work harder, gives them motivation and ensures that they really study the technical requirements properly.  I don't know about other teachers, but personally I am much more pernickety when teaching exam syllabi. The vocational exams also give the students a wider vocabulary of exercises and force them to overcome the difficulties of performing challenging exercises.  I always tell my students that it's not the mark that's important, but the process of working for the exam and I always see a greater improvement in those who have taken the exam (whatever mark they get) and those who decided they didn't want to do the exam. 

[Nana Lily]

Of the four vocatonal lower schools with public funding 3 of them do RAD classes and exams and one also does Cecchetti, so there must be some value in following a syllabus and taking exams in addition to vocational non syllabus based work. With such a precarious profession none of us has a crystal ball and dancers may move away from performance careers for a variety of different reasons at any point in time. I would rather have a recognised exam than not so that moving across to teaching is easier for the student.

[Harwel]

Tring certainly do RAD and Cecchetti ballet aswel as ISTD tap and modern.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

That is exactly my thought too nana Lily.

[Pas de Quatre]

But at these Vocational schools the syllabus classes and exams are optional extras which are not included in the main fees. 

[Lildancer96]

At Tring RAD is included in Dada

[Nana Lily]

At Hammond and Elmhurst RAD is covered by MDS too.

At Hammond RAD is part of the general dance timetable during weekly class. There are optional early morning classes for those about to take an exam for extra coaching.

At Elmhurst while on the general information on the website and in handbooks it states that RAD lesions are 'optional' you have to get special permission to miss a Saturday RAD class and unless there are exceptional circumstances permission is never granted to miss the class. Children are automatically 'opted in' to RAD classes. I have never known a vocational student 'opt out'. The school has been an integral part of the development of the new vocational syllabus, being a test bed for the syllabus and students took exams prior to the new syllabus being on general release. They are also in the DVD's for all the vocational grades. The classical variation for Advanced 2 was choreographed on a specific sixth form student as ecsined the the launch of the new syllabus.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

They may be extra in that non MDS students are charged for the exam entry fee at Hammond but they are certainly not optional.

 

RAD classes for years 7-9 are held Thursday & Friday mornings after registration. True, the students also have non syllabus classes each day too.

[Pas de Quatre]

When dd was at Tring (some years ago now) RAD & Cecchetti were definitely optional and the classes incurred extra fees in the same way as singing or musical instruments, which may also be covered by MDS & DaDA.  If I remember correctly, Cecchetti was weekday evenings and RAD Vocationals on Saturdays.  Not everyone did them, however once you had signed up, you were expected to attend every week and not go off for the weekend until afterwards.

[Dance*is*life]

I will never forget an audition that a male student of mine took for one of the training scholarships that an arts foundation gives to outstanding students here.  The boys had to do a classical class in front of a panel of judges and as his teacher I was able to watch (you can't any more unfortunately).  Anyway, they finished the class and suddenly one of the judges said that she wanted to see more virtuoso steps from them.  Grand allegro, tours en l'air that sort of thing and having passed his Advanced 1 my student knew them all.  Then she asked to see grand tours in 2nd and he was the only one who could do them properly, because they had been part of the syllabus.  He had struggled with them, but because they were part of the exam work he had had to stick to it until he could do them.  Needless to say he got the scholarship.......  He always said that he had been impatient working for the exams, but he had to acknowledge that they had contributed to his technique and knowledge more than anything else he did. 

[Harwel]

At present, at Tring, if on MDS RAD is compulsory and there is no fee to pay. Cecchetti is within the normal weeks program of classes, so no extra fee attached.

[Vonrothbart]

A waste of energy and completely unnecessary. I never get drawn into that c..p!

Too right Harwell, my twelve year old grandaughter attained 91 marks in her Intermediate exam, but feel we can't mention it to other dance mums for fear of being drawn in. We fully well know it doesn't mean too much at this stage, as we all know it's all about potential rather than ability now.