Beezie

For younger families watching the Panorama and questioning the wisdom of vocational schools…. What are the alternatives? What are the pros and cons of keeping your child at home? Having been part of this forum for a while, I remember one or two posters discussing alternate paths….some of which were very successful. Sharing options and experiences now may help parents of younger children make the best possible decision when considering vocational schools.

@Thelittleswans That is worth its own thread, for parents of younger students who read this and specifically ask ‘What can I do to facilitate my child’s interest but not support one of these schools?’

Agree with several things I have heard: Parents can be groomed into complicity. I suspect this actively happens. And I don’t think it is as easy as explaining to your child that they don’t have the genes for ballet. If I were to guess, I would suspect eating disorders equally affect children who already have the classical ballet body, but just a smidge of remaining body fat. And finally, as someone already pointed out: Dance or no dance, eating disorders are serious and can happen in many situations. 20 years ago, I knew of a U.S. sorority who would take permanent markers and circle girls ‘areas of fat’ as part of initiation. Discussions about abuse, healthy eating and positive body image should be a topic in every parents repertoire….because we just don’t know when and where our children will be exposed to some of these behaviors. And didn’t mean to get off the topic of Dance schools. It is disgusting that any teacher is engaging in abuse of any sort. They are in a position of trust. They need to be better, without question.

I also wonder if the narrowness of the school provides students with few graceful exits. It is classical ballet or bust. If these schools widened the view of Classical Ballet to train all Classical Dance Professions, then they could train for non-profit business management, sports medicine, staging, choreography etc. If an 11 year old does not develop a Classical Ballet body, there would still be an avenue for him/her to stay at that school and become a Classical Dance Professional…..though not as a classical ballet dancer. It also gives teachers a talking point beyond “you don’t have the right body.” The discussion can then be “While you aren’t developing the right body for classical ballet, I can see how artistic you are with regard to staging and lighting.” This has long been used in academics, where not everyone makes it as a doctor or astrophysicist. It allows interests to change and better suit the individual, without so strong an emphasis on failure.

Agree with LinMM. In a sport/art that is so synonymous with physical appearance, I’d be interested to hear what ‘good’ looks like. I’ve thought a lot about this topic and still cannot get my head around it. Is it the Balanchine body ideal? …or the fact that dance is inherently about the physical appearance of the dancer, so any ideal will be unachievable to some? Or the historical analogy that the dancer is a quiet and suffering muse, to be molded by a choreographer…..which oozes of disempowerment. Or all of the above?

I once heard that, for pre-pro training, the number of dance hours per week should match the school year (ie Year 5 = 5 hours per week dance.) The majority of those hours should be ballet….but not necessarily all. Don’t know if anyone has heard anything similar. I thought it was quite a clever way to remember the correlation to age and training. ….but as a disclaimer, continental Europe did less hours until 11-12 hrs.

Ugh, social media! Worth its own thread. I don’t know how any child can look at these ballet insta accounts and not feel awful about themselves. And at the same time, there are also some really good technique and stretching videos. ….but the ‘comparison-ing’ is my reason to keep my child off. (You also notice how you rarely see the posters with perfect ballet feet or hyperextended legs actually in videos dancing? It does make you wonder. 🤔. Perhaps photographing gorgeously and dancing gorgeously are different talents. ….but try explaining that to a child viewer and they won’t get it.)

Take a beginners class at Danceworks or Pineapple. They are super fun and accessible….even if you don’t have much of a dance background, or no dance background at all. If you can follow along to an aerobics video or a Zumba class, you’ll be fine!

Oh, how I wish there were more Nutcrackers out there for children participation! We SO miss that aspect of the US - amateur Nutcrackers at quite a few studios. It ranks up there as top-3 lifetime memories for my daughter!

Great article! The thing I dislike most about ballet: It can make slim, beautiful and strong girls (and boys) feel inadequate…..because they aren’t meeting this genetic standard that perhaps 0.01% of the human race can achieve. Just a comparative breakdown: Basketball players: tall Gymnasts: flexible, short Model: thin, tall, memorable face (but maybe not traditionally pretty) … Ballerina: thin, strong, no chest, no hips, long neck, average height, flexible, fully turned-out hips, high arch, high instep, generally pretty face. The physical requirements to excel are like 10x more specific than any other sport I can think of. And then, honestly, I watch dance teachers get all gooey-eyed over those ‘perfect ballerina’ physical attributes. If a dancer has them all, a lot of leeway seems to be made for her actual talent. Or, at least, she is provided with every avenue of training up until she fully and thoroughly demonstrates a failure-to-progress. (Conversely, a normally proportioned/jointed girl may struggle to access all the same training opportunities regardless of strong musicality and art form.) No wonder our young lady and men dancers have body issues! As audience members: Let’s celebrate the movement and emotion, and struggle against our human inclination to focus on the physical body shape. We need to remember that art is making beauty out of imperfections.

On ‘internet search criteria’ alone, the name change should help. As we were researching London ballet schools, YDA never popped up. I had to hear their name from this forum, and then expressly search for them.

Oh, this post brings back memories! @dancefaye Terrible situation. I’m sorry. If I view my original post into the ‘older and wiser’ mentality…. I think I was more upset by these behaviors than my child because adults should do and be better. That said, I should have also been wiser than to fall into a ‘drama trap.’ I’ve come to think that coaching at 7 and 8 is more or less meaningless in the grand scheme. The teachers that promote it are probably trying to earn some extra income. That favoritism and competition soon has all moms booking ‘privates’ for their kids too. We have tried more professional schools. The teachers there are very candid about my child’s needs and potential. They will also say ‘no’ to coaching unless it is very specifically necessary to work out an issue that cannot be resolved in class. All that said, ‘favorites’ don’t disappear in more professional schools. However, you can recognize why the child is a favorite….and it is usually some genetic ballet super-skill like flexibility, hyper mobility or feet. While that seems more palatable to me, I don’t think it is more palatable for my child. Favoritism at other schools, in my kid’s eye, was just a mean and unfair situation. However, favoritism now seems to be based on skills/attributes my child can see but may not possess. ….but that seems to be the ballet world for you. Of your situation: I would be most concerned that the teacher doesn’t have their own ‘rules of engagement’ ironed-out regarding the scheduling of lessons. Even if it wasn’t an overt lie, they were clearly wasting your time and your child’s time. That is a big ‘no no’ when we are all busy and juggling priorities.

Paint and bedazzle them, then sell or donate to little girls. They’ll love them!

@drdance Maybe all these young men and women getting degrees in dance can propel higher levels of amateur dance. I continue to think it is a good business model. The ‘dance studio’ realm may be a bit overcrowded in some areas. But there is still a lot that could be done with regard to amateur productions. When I see this done in the US, parents pay the equivalent of class time (hrs rehearsing charged similar to class hours.) I also think amateur performances may be more rewarding for teens and teachers. The teens have a final production that feels like an accomplishment, in and of itself….and get to live out a bit of the dream they’d otherwise strive for in a professional career. The teachers get to try their hand in choreography and large-scale show production….which seems like it would be a resume builder for many other things. Think I’ve planted this seed before in a thread, but I’d completely do this if I didn’t have my current job! (Not the choreography….I’m not a dancer. But I’d pull together the business model and pair with a couple talented dance graduates.)

Or perhaps said better: I wish there was a way for dancers to feel accomplished and fulfilled in the middle ground between recreational and professional.

@Neverdancedjustamum I have exactly the same thoughts. My daughter is starting to scale back in pursuit of things that are more academic….coupled with realizing she is no longer the best in her ballet class. She is so smart! It is the right decision. But had she kept throwing herself into ballet, I think I would just follow along in a Mama-bear you-can-do-anything manner…..and continue to spend large amounts of time and resources to do so. I still wish there was a middle ground between recreational and professional. My daughter really wants to participate in productions (beyond recital)….but it is hard to do that unless you are fully committed.

She also talks about leaving SAB when her body was identified to not be developing in the right way. Of course, made me want to google her picture. She is an absolutely beautiful, thin, willowy looking young lady. Granted, I know, I cannot see flexibility, turnout, feet. But still!!! It’s amazing how much the ballet world can expect from someone! You can completely look the part and still be told you don’t have the body for it, I guess. Maybe it is these directors that have a bit of body dysmorphia. I still go back to the competitiveness of so few professional spots. If ballet were much more mainstream, with productions as common as community theater or football leagues, maybe it would be possible to feel a sense of accomplishment without someone finding fault in your body where it probably doesn’t exist (at least, not in the real world.)

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/features/alice-robb-new-york-city-ballet-ballerina-princess-thin-b2294936.html Stumbled upon this, and it is quite thought provoking. Now I want to read her book! I like how she discusses that only the success stories are shared. But every aspiring dancer has a story to tell, even if they never ‘make it.’

At the end of the day, I think ballet barely pays a living wage in most countries and even in the best companies. In the US, the most corp members can hope for is a subsidized dorm room (similar to college), small monthly subsidy, pointe shoes….and hopefully several years of fabulous memories. Even if you make principle, you are barely at a comfortable wage. (It may seem high for Europe, but remember that US workers should probably be saving the delta for retirement.) Always good to remind all aspiring dancers that they need ballet and ‘something else’ as a career choice. It’s a sad truth. The chances are probably the same as becoming a pro sports player. However, a pro sports player ends up with several years of a quite lucrative salary. Life’s not fair.

Yeah, I second the cost-of-living comment. Some cities in Europe are surprisingly affordable. If she is okay with 1-2 roommates, she may be able to make it work. That said, she’ll still have to be quite frugal.

Interesting thread. I share a lot of the sentiment: We’re also finding moderate flexibility in ballet if no longer enough. (I think it used to be.) Back flexibility and past-90 leg extensions are also the trouble point. DD loves ballet but hates flexibility training. She looks at the hyper mobile girls in class and says she knows she’ll never get there. Perhaps she is wise, and this is just self-selection. She has so much artistry and grace that it makes me sad to hear this….but there are also other areas where she can nurture these talents. We also have the awkward puberty phase going on. She has some areas where she is a late bloomer, so holding out hope. But the back flexibility is one I just don’t see changing much. With all of the above, we’ve slowed down on ballet vs doubled-down….though still trying to maintain just enough training that the decision isn’t irreversible. I used to wish we were going through this experience 30+ years ago where extreme flexibility wasn’t such a differentiator. I love seeing old ballet clips; but the ‘greats’ of past eras were quite different, stylistically. All things evolve, I guess.

Of course boys too. Sorry for the oversight.

Being non-Uk, I can perhaps help with why further explanation is needed as to the idea of an Associates program: Many countries (US and Eu) discourage taking classes outside their studio. If you ask them why, it is usually a combination of: 1) Our training is pre-professional, and there is no outside teacher that will do better. 2) A dancer needs consistency of training, so adding different styles of teaching may hurt and slow your child’s development. 3) We know your child best. A new and infrequent teacher won’t know their strengths/weaknesses or care. I find these opinions a bit of half-truths. There is clear financial benefit to the studio from this message. The studio will also have consistency in their pupils (probably easier for the teachers. I’m not certain it is better for the girls.) Anyway, if a parent buys into this message, then the idea of an Associates program is quite foreign. It may also lead the parent to ask why the dancer isn’t receiving high enough quality training at their local school. Not making and judgements here….just pointing out why a non-UK family may struggle to transition from their ‘known’ studio structure to the UK variety. We’ve now moved a couple times, and each new location is ‘ground zero’ with regard to relearning ballet instruction. You have to sort through different country standards AND different quality standards. There is rarely a right or wrong, just a very different way of doing it.

You are all super brave! I couldn’t do it! Though, as a child, I probably thought I was ready to leave home around 14-15yrs. In my experience, kids know what they can handle. They may be the best guides regarding age and maturity for such an experience.

Just thought I’d add - I had an interesting discussion with the dance teacher. She was of the opinion that RAD training method can build flexibility slowly in dancers with limited initial range. (Whereas I presume, methods like Vaganova pre-seek high flexibility from a young age.) I thought it was an interesting comment, and very helpful as selection between studio curriculums is always a bit of a black-box to me.