Royal Ballet Pictures - Not Good News

[Bruce Wall]

Restor, I suspect part of the reason for this move by the RB (and I assume the overall policy of the ROH) may be the ACE cuts whose coming has been known for some time.  In commercial theatre in the States (on Broadway, say, - or even at the Metropolitan Opera - the largest subsidized cultural institution in the US with a budget far exceeding the ROH's) the photographs/photographers are controlled by the specific producers/institutions themselves.  In this way, the photographs that are used by reviewing publications/sites are always different - in that the publications are given different pictures rather than a selection of their own choice to ensure variety in overall coverage.  Any photograph/s that are desired by the general public for ANY other uses short of commercial ones (e.g., for the artists themselves) can be requested and purchased.  There are also certain leading artists who have approval rights over any images used.  Please know that even the artists themselves have to pay (as I believe they should) for the production shots.  (These things do not come for free - much as the artist him/herself was fiscally rewarded for their artistry by the management.  Oh, occasionally one is gifted with a picture - say after a final performance - but that becomes - as it is - a gift and the weight of its value can only be enhanced in such circumstances.  Even there, though, permission has to be given by the management to the photographer, or, indeed, their commission paid if the photographer so demands.  Also - given the paperwork that comes with any of these images - it ensures that the photographer will ALWAYS be credited for their work.  (I remember my own thrill at being able to buy a print of the first Hirschfeld drawing that was done of me.  For me this was a mark of achievement.  I didn't buy a copy of the latter two as these things were VERY expensive ... but I so cherish the one I have - and was thrilled when I was able to get Mr. Hirschfeld to sign it for me.  Sadly even acknowledgement for the photographers work often does not apply I see on the web; well, certain web sites. (Certainly I purchased a goodly number of pictures of myself over the years in different Broadway/Off Broadway productions.  Ironically these were frequently from different producers who often used the same noted photographer(s).  Sometimes I lent these copies to publications to publish in an interview say, but even then - as was heavily stamped in legal instruction on the back of the said photographs - the publication had to get permission for usage from the original management and photographer and more often than not I'm sure an appropriate commission paid.  This gives the original producing institution (i) quality control over the images they are responsible for and (ii) also allows them to gain them some income which is understandable as they are the ones contracting (and thereby responsible for) the photographers in the first place.  Without such protection all photographers in this regard ALL would remain devoted amateurs.  In this light some would think the allowance of three images from non-in-house sources was most generous.  I wonder too how long that will be maintained as more and more margins become squeezed.    

Edited May 27, 2013 by Meunier

[zxDaveM]

Who are the photographers - Relatives or friends of someone in the company or professionals?  I assume amateur ( i.e. unpaid, not necessarily poor quality) photographers undermine those who are trying to earn a living . With a good digital camera it is not as skilled as it used to be to take a photo.

 

Perhaps they are concerned that the photographers who are not commissioned by press are just making money by selling them without paying the dancers or the venue or indulging their hobby at the expense of the venue.

 

If you are commissioned by a publication to take photos of dancers which promote the show that is one thing but to take photos for the purpose of making money by selling them or for self promotion at exhibitions etc when you have not paid the ballet company or the dancers is another.

 

However it is hard to understand why any company would want to restrict the use of good quality photographs to publicise their event - though as many shows sell out they don't perhaps need so much coverage given to them by non commissioned amateur photographers.

 

Just wanted to correct a couple of points - I'm pretty sure none of the dancers get any money if they are in the pictures, no matter who takes them. In fact, they (or parents) have to pay for them. You assume wrong about most photographers allowed into ROH. A couple are paid by ROH to get the production shots, that end up in programs, posters, and the website. Others will only get paid if they get their shot published, which is not the same as being amateur. ALL the top pros now use digital. The contract we sign, prohibits random sales and self promotion uses, without express permission from ROH. On one hand you're concerned that some photographers selling pictures, when on the other the likes of myself are depriving them of a living. Well, I'm not, as I'm not competing with them for the same paid work. I have have in the past sold a few pictures - but mainly to ROH publications, and then only because they saw my photos, which if only publishing 3, they won't anymore.

 

Hope that clears up a few things

[Ian Macmillan]

Dave:  Thanks for your intervention.  It serves to make that point that the ROH's delay in publishing a rationale for its decision is permitting all manner of comments to be made, some more focussed than others.

[Lynette H]

It is all the more bizarre when you consider that the ROH in its new revamped web site still does not have pictures or biographies of the dancers.  These used to be available on the old web site.  There are however, pictures and bios for the management. Who I wonder, is the public more interested in seeing ? 

[Bruce]

Good to see people thoughts.

 

I await the ROH public statement which hopefully clearly crystallises out the issues. For the record I don't see anybody using press taken pictures (which is what we do, if in a modern way) and making big wads of money on the back of them. Now if somebody set up www.royalballetphotos.com and surrounded each image with loads of very dubious advertising I might see a concern. As Dave says the images themselves can't be sold on for commercial use without their agreement (and which is a fair and reasonable contract term I think).

 

I don't think this has at all been widely known for some time and certainly not by all the potentially impacted parties, let alone fans and those who 'consume' them.

 

Change is good when it adds to the joy of nations but I still can't easily see how this change does that. But we respect rules and that's why we immediately moved to comply even when it wasn't clear that all were aware or where this might go.

[Don Q Fan]

I wonder if one could set up a private gallery ie where you have to be a member and sign in with a password to view the photos much like a private blog?  I would think that ROH could do little about that as it would not be in the public domain like an open gallery/blog.  Just a thought.

[lakeylakes]

Typically British and elitist. Compare Library of Congress USA ( Come on in their your books ) to British library ( you must be a specialist to read our books ). ROH elite think real fans are swivelled eyed loons.

[EllenWestROH]

Thanks all for your comments on this topic. Members of our Press team will be in touch with all of the photographers and websites to have expressed anxieties. Our main concern is the representation of The Royal Ballet's productions and artists, and we hope that changes that we are making will only increase the quality of what is online.

[Anna C]

Hi Ellen, welcome to the forum. I do hope the ROH will make the right decision. I've booked last minute tickets on the strength of Dave's beautiful photos and as a ballet fan I feel it would be such a terribly backwards step if we couldn't continue to enjoy all his beautiful photos of RB productions.

[bangorballetboy]

Typically British and elitist. Compare Library of Congress USA ( Come on in their your books ) to British library ( you must be a specialist to read our books ). ROH elite think real fans are swivelled eyed loons.

What balderdash. Anyone with two forms of ID can get a reader pass allowing full access to the British Library collections. The rest of your post needs to be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

[alison]

You've beaten me to it, BBB.  And that reminds me, I need to renew mine, so thanks.

[Ian Macmillan]

Ellen:

 

I too would like to extend a welcome to the Forum - the presence here of a representative of an establishment at which many members spend significant time and money each year can only be welcome!

 

On this newly-emerging issue of online photograph galleries, I feel sure that people here will share your concern for the representation of the Royal Ballet's productions and artists.  It is in nobody's interest that these should be adversely affected, and there has surely been enough comment here (and recently on Twitter) to suggest that these galleries have added significantly to people's enjoyment and appreciation of the Royal Ballet by including not only shots of Principals but by going on down to Corps level.  So, it is with all of this in mind that I ask what harm you feel has been done to the Company, its productions and artists by what has been posted till now on sites like DanceTabs (and, by extension, here) and The Ballet Bag? For, if there has been no harm, what has caused the restrictive change in policy?

[jules_skichick]

myself and countless other true ballet fans have very much enjoyed viewing davem and others rehearsal pics of roh ballets - it is a GREAT SHAME that some jobsworth at ROH is now going to deny us HONEST fans that priviledge for no APPARENT good reason!! sounds like some insecure employee flexing his power - or throwing his toys out of the pram!!

 

Please ROH when will we get back the biogs of all dancers - whatever level - which were on the website a few years ago - put the old ones back if no one has time to do new ones - many dancers are still the same - but PUT THEM BACK please - we enjoy seeing who is who and finding out about new dancers- it is easy information to display and is SADLY LACKING now - you said you would do it several years ago!!!

[MAB]

Never mind the professionals, how about putting a stop to all those amateurs that blind you with flashes at the end of performances.

[zxDaveM]

Never mind the professionals, how about putting a stop to all those amateurs that blind you with flashes at the end of performances.

 

What - by confiscating phones? That might have the added bonus of stopping people txting/twittering I guess, though wouldn't like to be the people implementing that... And getting in before curtain up would be worse than in the days of bag searches!

[Nina G.]

myself and countless other true ballet fans have very much enjoyed viewing davem and others rehearsal pics of roh ballets - it is a GREAT SHAME that some jobsworth at ROH is now going to deny us HONEST fans that priviledge for no APPARENT good reason!! sounds like some insecure employee flexing his power - or throwing his toys out of the pram!!

 

Please ROH when will we get back the biogs of all dancers - whatever level - which were on the website a few years ago - put the old ones back if no one has time to do new ones - many dancers are still the same - but PUT THEM BACK please - we enjoy seeing who is who and finding out about new dancers- it is easy information to display and is SADLY LACKING now - you said you would do it several years ago!!!

ROH has the bio's of ALL the dancers, they use them in their programmes - when dancers have important roles -  so putting them all on their website cannot be that time consuming. Why are they so resistant?

The Principals do not need PR, they are already known. Anyhow, it's the career of the up-coming dancers I am interested in following having seen the Principals/1st Soloists many times over (I still enjoy them but it's more of a thrill to see the upcoming ones, especially as I am closer to their age . DaveM was a great "visual voice" for them but sadly this is now all being denied to us fans. So terribly cross with ROH.

[EllenWestROH]

On the old ROH website we had a page for each member of The Ballet Company. It was limited to the profile from the programme, some performance details and a small image. We always intended to publish profiles of our artists on the website and it was simply time pressure that prevented us from doing so. We wanted to move away from the static pages on the old ROH website and do something more dynamic, pulling together a profile, images, videos, links, forthcoming performances and other elements.

 

We’ve been doing development work on these profile pages alongside many other changes on the website and are nearly at the point at which we can publish them – we will be showing the artists the templates soon and will be publishing material in phases. We hope that you will find the new pages a real improvement.

[Anna C]

Ellen, will all the artists be featured? Corps dancers as well?

[lakeylakes]

What balderdash. Anyone with two forms of ID can get a reader pass allowing full access to the British Library collections. The rest of your post needs to be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

How long has this applied. Off topic a bit so I will not say much, but CSPAN USA hundreds of free quality progs on line. BBC only Melvyn Bragg truly free and online. Royalty and the house of Lords speak for themselves. Thank God for Wales Scotland, Cornwall and the North of England.  Only Good thing in the South is The Royal Ballet really the British Ballet because we pay for them not the Royals thats for sure. 

[Anna C]

Off topic indeed. Can we keep to the original topic please?

 

Thank you.

[MAB]

What - by confiscating phones? That might have the added bonus of stopping people txting/twittering I guess, though wouldn't like to be the people implementing that... And getting in before curtain up would be worse than in the days of bag searches!

 

No, by the staff reprimanding people that do so.  It works at the Coliseum so why not at Covent Garden?

[Bruce]

A brief update on where we are on this. I spoke to @EllenWestROH last night and it's agreed there will a joint meeting of photographers/websites and ROH. Nothing is cast in stone (or why meet!) and of course we all, in our different ways, are keen to do work that adds to the joy of nations and also reflects well on all concerned. I'm sure at the meeting we will all have lots to say, but publicly I think those are the headlines for now and we look forward to a constructive meeting.

[ballet_dad]

> it's agreed there will a joint meeting of photographers/websites and ROH

 

Although I understand that this meeting is likely to focus on the use of photographs, could I request that another item is added to the discussion (or perhaps EllenWestROH could reply directly)?

 

Currently, there is no visibility of who is performing in the corp for a given performance. I have emailed the box office in the past and was told that the box office staff do not have this information.

 

I doubt if I am alone in timing my visits to try to see particular Artists perform.

 

Would it therefore be possible to make this information available via the website or the box office staff? Of course if artists were to have their own webpage on the ROH site, they could do it themselves.

 

If the ROH were to take the latter route, they could also measure the number of hits that particular dancers achieved. This may provide interesting feedback on the popularity of particular artists.

 

I fully understand that cast changes occur, perhaps more at the corp level than at the principal level (I have no idea). I don't see that that would be an issue.

[Bruce]

Although I understand that this meeting is likely to focus on the use of photographs, could I request that another item is added to the discussion (or perhaps EllenWestROH could reply directly)?

From my perspective it's s a very specific meeting about a very specific issue and needs to concentrate on that I'm afraid.

[Sim]

Ballet_dad, that is a good proposal.  I'd email the ROH direct and ask the question.  Do please let us know what the response is.

[jules_skichick]

On the old ROH website we had a page for each member of The Ballet Company. It was limited to the profile from the programme, some performance details and a small image. We always intended to publish profiles of our artists on the website and it was simply time pressure that prevented us from doing so. We wanted to move away from the static pages on the old ROH website and do something more dynamic, pulling together a profile, images, videos, links, forthcoming performances and other elements.

 

We’ve been doing development work on these profile pages alongside many other changes on the website and are nearly at the point at which we can publish them – we will be showing the artists the templates soon and will be publishing material in phases. We hope that you will find the new pages a real improvement.

great - its a pity that it is all taking so long - many dancers are still there and their profiles could have been avail for about 6 years to inform watchers about them - at then moment this cant happen -static _ is not always a bad thing if the required information is getting to the people who want it - bu thanks for the reply and hurry up

[Bruce Wall]

Wondered if this meeting had now taken place given the pressing concern of a matter of but a week ago ... which in this dear day and age can, it seems, appear (at least on twitter) to have been a lifetime?  Grateful for your kind advice on behalf of all.

[Bruce Wall]

Given that it has been a week since my last posting/request, I just wondered if there had been any advance on this important issue.  Much thanks for anyone's kind advice as and when available on behalf of all.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Meunier

[Bruce]

There is nothing much to meaningfully say on this at the moment. An amicable meeting was held to discuss things and share views. Although it would be nice to know what is happening that is still not sorted. But the next Royal Ballet photoshoot is next season and that is really the deadline for knowing what the way forward is. No more to say I think, other then the views expressed by fans about all this are well known within and without ROH.

[Bruce Wall]

Much thanks, Bruce, for your kind reply.  It is keenly appreciated. 

[A frog]

Thank you for the update Bruce.
I'm not on Twitter, but when checking the link that was supplied at the beginning of the thread, the ROH was then saying they would be supplying an explanation (maybe even press release?) after the weekend, did they say anything apart from the concerns about commercial exploitations and concerns about the representations mentioned in the later comments?
 

[Bruce]

There was no big set of words on all this from ROH - that got superseded by their suggestion of a meeting. I think this was a v good and constructive idea. EllenWestROH has posted here a few times and its really for her to say more when the way forward is clear. Ive looked to be careful with my words around a tough subject and some of the speculation I've read in this thread I don't recognise. But I don't want to get sucked in to publicly negotiating. Not a great place to be I think.

[A frog]

Thank you Bruce.