Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Millicent]

If there's no "look" what's the motivation or impetus for body shaming? I can't think of any other explanation. 

[Ondine]

6 minutes ago, Millicent said:

f there's no "look" what's the motivation or impetus for body shaming? I can't think of any other explanation.

 

Some people like to exercise power and control?

 

I really don't know what makes bullies tick. 

 

 

 

 

[Pas de Quatre]

In business, the supply of goods and services there is the legal concept "fit for purpose".  Is this applicable to RBS? 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

8 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

I doubt that talented home grown students are actually cynically booted out on some pretext or another in order to have an influx of competition winners.

 

But what is obvious is that admission to White Lodge isn't all it could be, if the majority of the intake is 'assessed out' after not too long. I can't think it's simply a money making scheme.

 

I just saw photos of the new first year upper school students. I could be mistaken but of the 15 girls I saw,  I would guess only one is British and only one was at WL from Year 7.  Obviously quite off topic but my DD was recently in an RBS intensive and of almost 30 girls I’d say less than a handful are British (I could actually only see 2-3, one was my DD). Predictably, at least two were offered direct entry for next year’s intensives, both YAGP winners from overseas. My DD confirmed she found both were amazing, and very advanced for their age. To be fair, my DD was just in awe to be there and of everyone there as she’s just more a recreational dancer.

 

This is, of course, quite off topic for this thread and perhaps can be episode 2 of a Panorama mini-series.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Kerfuffle]

There are multiple factors involved in the exodus of British in WL. The present year 11 I think were the first to experience the major assessing out  at the end of year 9, having come to the end of the foundation course. In the old days it was a yearly thing, a slower trickle out. 

 

I don’t believe there is any reason why RBS  should be any different to Paris Opera Ballet which has a majority of French children. We aren’t that different as a nation or culture, fundamentally. 

 

YAGP creates baby ballerina celebrities - Instagram queens (and kings) who have huge followings. Because they are ambassadors there’s a natural expectation for them to win. These competition schools offer extremely intense training and the scholarships set up means their constant stream of foreign talent appearing at the affiliated schools in Europe. I guess the contrast with slower teaching is stark. 
 

I hope that Panorama is the starting point for improvements for British dancers. They (and their families) deserve better. 


 

 

 

 

[Peanut68]

2 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

In business, the supply of goods and services there is the legal concept "fit for purpose".  Is this applicable to RBS? 

On various previous topics myself & others have said similar things… where is the auditing? Where is the holding the management accountable? This has to be from the teachers right up to senior management & trustees…and government also as they provide the funding through MDS/DaDa & Arts Council funding & bestwing of charitable status & also recognising the role & possible control played by sponsors (individuals or corporates…I think here of recent sponsorship by a Japaneses corporate to encourage attendance of Japanese dancers at RBS….why???!) 

If an academic school consistently has failures (hate using that word but here I am likening ‘assessing out’ to failing or below average scores in national curriculum exams like SATS or GCSE’s or key stage progression) then surely individual teachers, subject heads, school headmasters & school/trust business leaders would all be directly looked at & held accountable…. And for any safeguarding or pastoral issues too! Why are the vocational dance schools not seemingly similarly judged? 
I guess we ‘the paying public’ maybe need to vote with our feet…. But those dreams (fed from the legacy of ‘better days’ or perhaps even lack of knowledge of what just went on then & now) will forever mean we go gooey eyed at the prospect of our youngsters being ‘Royal’ or similar! 

Any school receiving government funding in my opinion should be answerable to the same standards in all areas as any other government funded school or institution….and any financial arrangements similarly assessed for suitability…. 
But again, if viewing as a business…what are we judging as success? Where is the ROI (return on investment) for the many millions pumped into government backed vocational dance schools if the vast majority fail to even make it through the schools training programme let alone secure a dance job in UK thus becoming tax payers putting back into the system? 
If selection is poor - then challenge this’d selecting? Clearly not up to the job! Though of course we’ve discussed here too about ‘changes’ which will of course lead to sone natural attrition… but the massive  % of dancers assessed out or not asked to continue to next stage at RBS is surely above what could be deemed ‘normal’ or acceptable. So, challenge the selection criteria & people creating/judging it!

Then the teachers & ‘curriculum’ that is clearly failing to match to provide dancers of the standard their own schools have established. If it’s unrealistic - then challenge it…. They should be fighting to keep their jobs! If most of their students ‘fail’ then they have failed & should be ‘let go’ - or as I say if it’s ‘the system’ or unrealistic targets then they should feel able to challenge & change this by working with their department & school heads. And I’m now seeing a glaring part of the problem…. The inappropriate behaviour of some heading up organizations. One AD seems more interested in teaching & judging at overseas events/competitions than attending UK auditions or own school assessments/classes….

surely they should regularly teach each & every pupil within their school regularly to keep a grip on how their staff & students are progressing & to know if their ‘curriculum’  & selection process & training & staff are  fit for purpose? any jumbled thoughts here…my own opinions from personal experience of 3 funded schools & knowledge of the fourth from several families with very recent pupils. 
I want our tax payers to get value for money & out Dance industry to get the home born & home trained talent that tax money is supposed to be providing! 
We are all investing…. We deserve to see a return on this!

Edited September 22, 2023 by Peanut68

[Anna C]

3 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I just saw photos of the new first year upper school students. I could be mistaken but of the 15 girls I saw,  I would guess only one is British

I’m not sure how anyone can look at a group of teenagers and “guess” that only one of them is British!  Let’s be extremely careful please that we don’t go down a route of (albeit unconscious) xenophobia - or worse.  
Edited to add:  We also need to be careful about what language we use; “home grown”, “home born”, etc.  A student doesn’t need to have been born here to be trained in the “British” style.

 

And if it wasn’t clear from my post, when I talk about lower school/upper school children being assessed out, sometimes in favour of competition winners, I absolutely do not mean “British *BORN*” students, I mean British TRAINED students.

[Ondine]

A reminder that the Royal Ballet School and the company has always had dancers from countries other than Britain. Lynn Seymour, Canada.  Monica Mason, South Africa.  Many, many others.

 

The founder of the company and school was Irish.

 

Fonteyn received a great deal of her training abroad.

 

It's no different today, look at the current crop of principals.

 

Also, what used to be called the Genee and is now the Fonteyn, there are Royal Ballet stars who have 'won' there.  It's a competition. Leanne Benjamin, Steven McCrae, off the top of my head...  both Australian.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ondine

[Kerfuffle]

Yes it’s always been international  - but this doesn’t justify the lack of success of home trained students into upper school . The truth is that there was only one who got into upper school, from the original year 7 cohort. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[Ondine]

8 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Yes it’s always been international  - but this doesn’t justify the lack of success of home trained students into upper school . The truth is that there was only one who got into upper school, from the original year 7 cohort. 

 

Yes this is the issue.

 

I hope that it is a blip and things are going to change.  If not, all the access schemes, the Associate schemes etc have to be looked at again.

 

I also wonder if we are training too many children too intensely from a young age and giving them false hope of a dance career.  That's probably a separate issue, but one that needs to be considered.

 

Many will fall by the wayside as there are only so many jobs in the end. And the most talented of the talented will be employed.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ondine

[Neverdancedjustamum]

34 minutes ago, Anna C said:

I’m not sure how anyone can look at a group of teenagers and “guess” that only one of them is British!  Let’s be extremely careful please that we don’t go down a route of (albeit unconscious) xenophobia - or worse.  
Edited to add:  We also need to be careful about what language we use; “home grown”, “home born”, etc.  A student doesn’t need to have been born here to be trained in the “British” style.

 

And if it wasn’t clear from my post, when I talk about lower school/upper school children being assessed out, sometimes in favour of competition winners, I absolutely do not mean “British *BORN*” students, I mean British TRAINED students.

My apologies, perhaps it was the wrong use of the word “guess”. A majority of them are quite recognisable from social media however, it was wrong of me to imply they aren’t British. Perhaps they have British passports too. I have no intention of being xenophobic, especially as I’m not from this country originally either. It is going to be tricky if we are to be very strict with terminology. Home grown/ home born / locally trained / resident in the country / national / passport holder - it’s a minefield as someone, for example, who has ever applied for funding will find out. In any case, I would love (my outsider’s observation) to be proven wrong. Perhaps someone with a child in the first year cohort would know.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[taxi4ballet]

14 hours ago, Ondine said:

It's also worth looking at the final destinations of those who graduate from RBS Upper School. 

It is also worth wondering why so many of those who start training in upper schools (not just RBS) and don't graduate because they are shoved aside to make room for twinkling stars coming in for a final polish.

 

How come, after years of training at a supposedly world-class school, are they not good enough to compete with dancers trained elsewhere in the world?

[taxi4ballet]

1 hour ago, Kerfuffle said:

I don’t believe there is any reason why RBS  should be any different to Paris Opera Ballet which has a majority of French children. We aren’t that different as a nation or culture, fundamentally. 

Quite. It is extremely difficult to get into POB school unless you are French, and almost impossible to get into POB company unless you were trained in their school.

 

So if POB school can manage to produce exactly what POB are looking for from home-trained talent, why can't RBS?

[Ondine]

1 minute ago, taxi4ballet said:

How come, after years of training at a supposedly world-class school, are they not good enough to compete with dancers trained elsewhere in the world?

 

I suspect there are many young people in dance schools in countries other than the UK who are not ending up dancing as a career, who are 'assessed out', or not gaining jobs dancing at 'top' level. (There are rewarding careers to be had re dance / dance related but if you want to be the Sugar Plum Fairy in a major company there are only so many who will make the grade.) 

 

Perhaps those who make it to graduate from elite schools are really the elite and the most determined.

 

Ballet is a strange calling. Unlke sport or playing an instrument, you train and train but there are so few real opportunities to actually get beyond the training.  Not many local dance companies performing at local level to join. Yet that's what it's about isn't it?  I appreciate there are people who simply go along to class as they enjoy class, but for those who want to do the training as they want to get into that tutu and perform choreography, in a theatre, to an audience? Not a lot.

 

No simple answers and the dance world is certainly in a constant state of change.

 

 

 

 

 

[Anna C]

10 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Perhaps those who make it to graduate from elite schools are really the elite and the most determined.

I will never, ever, knock those students who graduate from our top ballet schools.  That said, as we’ve seen both in the media and on here, determination (and even talent) is NOT enough in ballet training.  Not thin enough?  Too long in the torso?  Too “soft”?  Too curvy?  Not the right feet?  Trained too “cautiously” (even at our own lower school) so you’re not as exciting to watch as someone trained elsewhere?  Sorry, bye.
You either don’t make it to Upper School, or you do, but get assessed out before graduation year (or worse, asked to leave “quietly” during graduation year, so you don’t “spoil” the graduate employment stats.  And all for things you can do absolutely NOTHING about.
 

Being the elite and the most determined (and talented) works in sports, academics, and even other art forms like music, singing, the fine arts etc, but in ballet, it’s simply not enough.  

[academicdancer]

15 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

I suspect there are many young people in dance schools in countries other than the UK who are not ending up dancing as a career, who are 'assessed out', or not gaining jobs dancing at 'top' level.

 

 

 

There is definitely a lot of turnover at the Vaganova school before the upper school. There is a fair % of the 2023 graduating class who did not start at the academy in the first year (and there are even some who did not start in the first year of the upper school). This information can be found on their Instagram, where they are posting about their graduates (when they started, prior training, achievements whilst at the school etc., graduation destination) every so often, and you can also see the graduate destinations of their international pupils on their website. I know less about other international ballet academies so cannot comment on them, but I am sure many are the same.

 

I'm not saying that it is right, but that White Lodge/RBS is certainly not the only place that does this.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I think other art forms are also extremely competitive. Fine art for example often has fads where however talented you might be your work can be ignored for not being in vogue. Classical instrumentalists have to be devoted from a very young age. Sport also is a tricky area, I only know a bit about tennis which is extremely demanding, expensive with only a tiny proportion making it.
 

What’s important is that young people feel supported and if need to can adjust to a different path. How many JAs make it through to upper school? I would guess very few, but they will still have had an enriching experience. Obviously the earlier you are in your training the lower the odds of making it so keeping children’s identity broader is a good idea - they don’t all have to be professional ballet dancers. There are so many related and unrelated fields to explore.

[capybara]

So many strands here to pick up on but I will take just one.

 

Thinking about the Principals and Soloists at the three companies with which I am most familiar (BRB, ENB and RB) I cannot discern a particular body shape among either the women or the men. Indeed, the top dancers seem to come in all shapes and sizes.

 

What I do see in most of them, however,   in addition to their inate talent, is application, determination to push forward whatever the circumstances or challenges, taking full ownership of their own progress, a love of the art, an appreciation of the achievements of their colleagues, and a willingness to keep learning, regarding suggestions and corrections as plusses in the process.**

I could go on and on. But these kinds of qualities seem to indicate that a positive attitude of mind and accepting responsibility oneself are key to success.

 

Maybe there is a need to help students and their teachers to better understand this?

(** Based on first hand acquaintance with some dancers as well as observation of many more on and off stage.)

[alison]

1 hour ago, capybara said:

Maybe there is a need to help students and their teachers to better understand this?

 

Maybe simply "to understand this", even?  How many of them do, I wonder, especially those who don't make the grade for whatever reason?  I believe it's known as being a "self-starter" in HR terms.   

[Anna C]

You make excellent points, Capybara.  I think the first thing we need to do in our ballet schools is to remove something that both Luke Jennings and Dr Alison Stuart said, and that is Fear.  An artist cannot thrive in an atmosphere of fear.  In fact nobody, child or adult, is at their best, and can express themselves naturally, when scared.

 

I think I’m remembering rightly (please do correct me if not) that some years ago, both Carlos Acosta and Christopher Powney commented on different occasions that British ballet students were - not lazy, certainly - reticent, maybe?  Backwards in coming forward? “Lack motivation”, was a term I think Christopher Powney used.  
 

I disagreed then, and I disagree now.  I think what ails British ballet students is fear.  Imagine how a 16 year old could thrive if she knew that in her first week at Upper School, she wasn’t going to be body shamed?

 

Imagine having the confidence and stability of knowing that (serious injury and change of path notwithstanding) you could settle into a routine and actually *enjoy* being taught in some of the world’s most beautiful studios, by wonderful, knowledgeable, inspirational teachers, that you would be corrected but not bullied, that at the end of each year you could look forward to next year; that shame, humiliation, and most of all FEAR of being  - let’s call it what it is - expelled just before the final hurdle, was not a part of your life in training.

 

Have end of year exams/assessments by all means, but only to identify strengths and things to work on.  Not as some sort of elimination, “one in, one out” scenario.  No artist is able to be herself under those circumstances.

[capybara]

I have just looked at Vadim Muntagirov's recently published autobiography From Small Steps to Big Leaps to see whether he says anything about his training at the RBS. One has to remember, of course, that he arrived at the RBS via the Prix de Lausanne and from a brutal teaching regime in Perm - and that he was ultra talented.

 

Nevertheless, he comes out with a few telling statements about the interpersonal relationships between staff and students, for example: "I really felt that (X) cared about us all"; "approachable teachers"; "feedback including compliments"; "discipline and high expectations combined with support". Then, when referring to his joining ENB in the first instance: "I have always felt that the people around me at the time had my best interests in mind".

 

https://shop.roh.org.uk/products/vadim-muntagirov-from-small-steps-to-big-leaps-book  among other retailers, of course.

 

 

[DVDfan]

As a taxpayer, I feel that the apparent failure of WL and RBS to produce world class dancers from British students, is important and should be addressed. There cannot be a smaller pool of talented, motivated children with suitable physique who are willing to work their socks off to achieve their ambition here than in, for example, France. 

However, this discussion is tending to move away from the primary issue which is that some teachers in top dance schools viciously bully students until their mental health has been broken. Whether those students are part of an 'elite' is irrelevant - the school has offered them a place and should be giving them good training in a supportive, safe environment.

My father was 40 years a university teacher and did his best with all the students in his classes, regardless of their probable grades - he did this because he was a naturally good teacher. However, quite rightly, a high level of failure and drop out would have harmed his career, the reputation of his department and his university. So why do we allow ballet schools to get away with it?

[Ondine]

Why does being British matter?  As I said above, the Royal Ballet has always been an international company.  I'm not sure restricting the schools to an intake of only those with a British passport will solve other issues.

 

Has anyone any information about how many French students are taken into the POB school each year, how many move from the POB school into the company each year, and how many of those who don't make it find work elsewhere?

 

The system is different. I note international competition prizewinners are accepted for a year's training too.

 

https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/artists/ballet-school/admission 

 

I also note that students appear to have competitive exams and are admitted a year at a time?

 

I'm assuming then that students who don't pass the exam are 'assessed out'.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ondine

[DVDfan]

 

I am not saying that RB or any other company should restrict its contracts to British dancers, but I think that the nationality of students at schools funded by British tax payers does matter - where are talented British students supposed to go if British schools don't take them? Not every parent of a talented child can afford fees and expenses to go abroad - after all, one of the main reasons for seeking a place at WL is that it is fully funded.

The other issue is that WL does not seem (from the posts on here) to offer training that is good enough for students to graduate to RBS. As a tax payer this worries me.

 

But none of this worries me half as much as the main issue of this discussion and of the Panorama program, which is the deliberate and avoidable destruction of student's mental health by teachers. Nationality of the students is irrelevant, but the fact that this is happening in British schools is not.

[Ondine]

Is White Lodge fully funded for all? Is there an element of a sliding scale, a means test? I thought there was.  I haven't actually delved into all the means and ways that the RB schools are funded, but I suspect it's complex and doesn't totally rely on the taxpayer.  Also as a number of arts orgs have discovered, what can be given can also be taken away.

 

I agree the welfare of students is the main thrust of the discussion, but one of the stresses seems to be 'assessing out' and maybe holding the POB system up as a better example doesn't bear a great deal of scrutiny as each year there are competitive exams. Fail and you're out. You also of course have to compete to get into the corps, and to be promoted once in the company.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ondine

[Pas de Quatre]

The big difference is that the POB system is totally transparent. A jury marks the candidates. It seems that so much in UK is behind closed doors and no clear explanation given.

[Ondine]

I don't know how much feedback is given to anyone 'assessed out'.  I'm assuming there must be some.

 

A jury with a marking system,  a subjective opinion... neither are infallible sadly.

[Ruby Foo]

6 hours ago, capybara said:

I have just looked at Vadim Muntagirov's recently published autobiography From Small Steps to Big Leaps to see whether he says anything about his training at the RBS. One has to remember, of course, that he arrived at the RBS via the Prix de Lausanne and from a brutal teaching regime in Perm - and that he was ultra talented.

 

Nevertheless, he comes out with a few telling statements about the interpersonal relationships between staff and students, for example: "I really felt that (X) cared about us all"; "approachable teachers"; "feedback including compliments"; "discipline and high expectations combined with support". Then, when referring to his joining ENB in the first instance: "I have always felt that the people around me at the time had my best interests in mind".

 

https://shop.roh.org.uk/products/vadim-muntagirov-from-small-steps-to-big-leaps-book  among other retailers, of course.

 

 

There were students in my daughters year ( US) who were getting the tuition they paid for. Who were being given the attention they deserve and / need to progress within RBS. They have a positive experience with teachers who ‘care’ and ‘nurture’

Then there are the few who are not.  Who, from week 3 of 1st year have caught the teachers eye in a negative way and whose difficulties become an issue that cannot be addressed without bullying or being ignored or not given any performance opportunities whatsoever because they simply can’t be shown to represent RBS/ embarrassment. These minority students will have a very different experience. They have already been negatively marked in some way and are no longer worthy of working with in the same context as the students with the potential. 
There will be plenty people reading this who will say the usual stuff about ‘ getting used to disappointment’ or ‘this is the ballet world’ etc etc.

What I would say is that ALL students that have been accepted to US should be given care and nurture and if difficulties arise then then even more reason to address them and to help that student reach their potential, whatever that may be. Young people are not commodities to be discarded when something more attractive appears. This is a school we are talking about. Not a company.

[Ruby Foo]

34 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I don't know how much feedback is given to anyone 'assessed out'.  I'm assuming there must be some.

 

A jury with a marking system,  a subjective opinion... neither are infallible sadly.

 
There is no feedback. No opportunity to talk to anyone.

Its a two line email stating the assessment was unsuccessful.
 

[Ondine]

3 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

There is no feedback. No opportunity to talk to anyone.

Its a two line email stating the assessment was unsuccessful.

 That's shocking.  Dreadful.  Needs to change.

[Ondine]

16 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

What I would say is that ALL students that have been accepted to US should be given care and nurture and if difficulties arise then then even more reason to address them and to help that student reach their potential, whatever that may be. Young people are not commodities to be discarded when something more attractive appears. This is a school we are talking about. Not a company.

 

 

Exactly. Why accept a student only to treat him or her badly? 

 

It's so distressing reading all this.  No young person should have their life blighted in this way.  Even if not the most talented in the group, to have got this far surely means ability way, way above the average?

 

Praise and some positivity and help is what teachers are actually paid to do. A little extra coaching, some love.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ondine

[Kate_N]

22 hours ago, Ondine said:

A reminder that the Royal Ballet School and the company has always had dancers from countries other than Britain. Lynn Seymour, Canada.  Monica Mason, South Africa.  Many, many others.

Ballet is an international art. Always has been - I've just been speaking at a symposium about the connections between English & Danish dance and pantomime, going back to the 1670s. 

[Kate_N]

22 hours ago, Ondine said:

I also wonder if we are training too many children too intensely from a young age and giving them false hope of a dance career.  That's probably a separate issue, but one that needs to be considered.

 

Yes, I think this is worth thinking about. Think of all the young children who play football or netball quite intensively. They are not all on the national team ... 

 

I think this is where dance is a bit different from academic skills & abilities for children & teenagers. It's much more like sport - the body is both the promise and the limitation.