Falling at the first hurdle!

[Vonrothbart]

I've seen these situations many many times, when young footballers and rugby players are told they aren't quite up to it, on most occasions their parents are the ones who take it the hardest. It's a tough tough world out there, and I'm sure there will be reasons just why your dd didn't quite make it this time. There is also a lot of quality competiton that your dd is up against, so I'm very sorry to have to say this, but you need to toughen up and just accept that for once your dd didn't quite do the business, and you should encourage her to bounce back and try again if that's what she wants. It made me think a little about your husbands attitude that maybe you've had her on a pedestal, just a thought mind you, but a swan amongst ducks and wanting to threaten the judges, hhhhmmmmmm.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Vonrothbart

[CeliB]

I would have thought that six hours of good quality ballet training WITH perhaps some quality one to one private lesson would be fine. More about quality rather than quantity I think.

 

I have to say this isn't what I've been told on numerous occasions (although I personally know zip about it so am relying on the ballet teachers we have spoken to being right....). Obviously 100 hours of lessons that are all totally rubbish won't get you far, but it's a balance isn't it? Surely if you could get to the same standard with 6 hours a week (plus or minus one or 2 more private) no-one would bother with vocational school and the 25-30 hours they do there?

 

I know we were categorically told that if DS left it to much later than 14 he would have 'missed the boat' - not that he would never be any good or never be a dancer but he definitely wouldn't achieve his full potential. And I always thought this was even more the case for girls as boys can get away with leaving it a bit later.....

 

I know there are always cases of individuals making it from a non vocational route but if you drill those stories down often you find they did do huge numbers of hours, they just had a single teacher 'on tap' (think Daniil Simkins mother for example!). With those who start late etc- yes maybe they do still make it, but maybe that's because they were in the top 0.0001% of people with exceptionally high potential, and if they had studied vocationally may have been even better!

 

Sorry if this makes me sound depressing or negative about non vocational routes, perhaps it's just that we are suffering so much with the loss of our beloved son that I feel have to justify our decision.....so slap me down if you think I'm talking nonsense!

[Spax]

I always tell my ds there is always someone out there better than you. You have to embed this into their brain so if rejected its not hard on them. When he got final at WL he was happily surprised and said...at least I got this far!. He doesn't expect to go all the way. He doesn't want to go to Elmhurst or anywhere else (at the moment) my dd didn't like Elmhurst, she thought it was a bit strange. For ds he talks as if he is back at YDA in Sept. he is under no illusion he will get in.

Ds knows hundreds audition for places, grades do not matter at the end of the day. If you are what they want you will get a place.

I have met parents at Genee comps putting their children on pedestals and when they did their dance it was embarrassing. They make their children believe they are the best and their not. Its so sad.....

[Evie]

My ds danced from the age of 3, by the time he auditioned at 11 he was quite good with lot's of 'potential'! He's a hard worker, loves ballet and has lot's of passion for it. He was a ja for 3 years and his dream was to go to WL. I recognised that he was 'quite good' and let him follow his dream. He didn't get into WL, but did get a place at another excellent vocational school. His friend another ds, who was a ja for only 1 year and had danced for much less time than my son, did get into WL and I could see why. He had natural talent and I think that if he had only been dancing for 6 months, WL would have taken him. There will always be these dancers, who havn't done anywhere near as much dancing as your child, will have never been a ja (this happened last year with a girl who went to WL) either. I have told my ds to cary on doing what he was doing before he went away, working hard and enjoy it, what the future may bring, who know!!!!

[Vonrothbart]

Absolutely spot on Evie, it's not how good we think we are, it's all about potential, it's pointless the judges taking anyone without it.

[taxi4ballet]

It's so hard to be objective, isn't it?

[Spax]

The best tip my ds was given was watch as many ballets as you can. What a difference in him. When on stage at the ROH he could tell you all the moves, who did what and notices mistakes.

I really believe ds wouldn't have got this far without watching ballet dvd's

[Anna C]

 

It's so hard to be objective, isn't it?

Very! I find I'm much harder on dd than other people are - not outwardly, but in my mind. I can see when she's dancing beautifully but I can see any mistakes and I'm under no illusions about how much she still has to learn and how much competition there is. All I can do is support her in her dream and take it one stage at a time. We shall see.

[Friends]

Dear Vonrothbart,

I can assure you that we do not put our daughter on a pedestal!

Far from it. 

I don't expect her to get offered any places but those around us imply she is good enough.

My surprise was that she could't get through the first round.

My daughter has dedicated much of her spare time to ballet and all I want is someone to say you are wasting your time if this is the case.

We all get sucked into this world which is self serving.

[Lisa O`Brien]

Dear Vonrothbart,

I can assure you that we do not put our daughter on a pedestal!

Far from it. 

I don't expect her to get offered any places but those around us imply she is good enough.

My surprise was that she could't get through the first round.

My daughter has dedicated much of her spare time to ballet and all I want is someone to say you are wasting your time if this is the case.

We all get sucked into this world which is self serving.

From reading this forum regularly now for a few years,I get the impression from MANY parents that they are never told if  their child is wasting their time or not. It would be helpful for both child and parents if this were the case,to avoid years of paying fees,sheer hard work,and rejection.Sadly,I think the only way one can tell if you are wasting your time,is if your child continues to receive rejections again and again;especially after the age of 16.Then it could be time to sit down with your  child and have a serious heart to heart about their future chances of making it as a professional dancer.

[taxi4ballet]

Discouraged - try and console yourself with the fact that those around you know *** all about it!!! There are more talented dancers out there than places at vocational schools, and that's it, really...

[lisadebs]

Hi Discouraged,

 

Just wanted to say that 8 years as an RBS associate would indicate to me that your DD does have potential for classical ballet and I can see why the 'no' from Elmhurst must have been very disappointing and confusing. There are children who are at vocational schools who will also be getting no's to finals, it is a very stressful time  especially when you have both invested so much time, energy and money.  

In our experience, decisions made in the ballet world are often unfathomable, I think all parents of dancing children have at some point been baffled by an audition outcome or exam result. Don't ever feel your DD has wasted her time, the skills she has gained from her ballet training will be invaluable whatever she ends up doing. I wish your DD the very best of luck with any other auditions she has coming up and above all I hope she continues to enjoy dancing.  

[Guesty]

It is always better to have tried for your dream than to have wished you had but never given it a go. Our friend is very successful now in MT but still wishes she would have tried. Just tried. For a classical career. She didnt and still regrets it. Take the lows and know that a high is somewhere close. Its our job as parents to encourage, support and be the constant in our talented creative driven children that we all have.

I dont often comment but read the posts on here all the time and am very grateful for all the good advice and supporr to others that is given.

Its such a tough industry they have found their passion in!

[aileen]

[qote name=taxi4ballet" post="33613" timestamp="1360252685]It's so hard to be objective, isn't it? As parents it's impossible to be objective. At every stage - school entry, contracts with companies, roles and promotions - ballet is competitive and we just don't know what the competition is. Even if your child is successful in local and national competitions and festivals there are many, many talented overseas dancers who are competing for the same small number of places at vocational schools. Having said that, if I were Discouraged I would also be very disappointed and surprised that my DD had not got through the first round of auditions at the first school she had tried for. It does not seem unreasonable to assume that high marks in vocational exams and, more particularly, eight years as an associate denotes a considerable amount of talent and potential. This is not meant as a criticism, but I do wonder whether your DD might lack some core strength because she does relatively few hours of ballet each week. At 16 the schools are not interested in what your child has been doing or how many hours of ballet s/he does; they are just looking at what the applicant in front of them can do and how suitable his or her body is for the aesthetic and physical demands of classical ballet.

[aileen]

Oh dear, I didn't manage to quote taxi4ballet properly. I don't know what happened. I pressed on Quote and then on T4B's words. Is that not right?

[Tulip]

Sadly a few Royal Ballet senior associates that we know did not get any offers for 6th form places. They were lovely dancers but there are just so many dancers out there. I don't know what the schools are looking for, but could one of the items on their list be employability? Discouraged your daughter has only had one no. I know of one girl who got a no for Elmhurst finals and a yes for Royal and ENB in the end she didn't get them but got a Da Da for Tring. Good luck for your daughters other auditions, stay positive and just tell her to enjoy the opportunity of an audition, fingers crossed for her.

[Jan McNulty]

If you're quoting the whole post you only need to press the quote button and the post appears in a feature box for you.  I had some problems trying to use a partial quote the other day so I haven't fully got the hang of it yet either!

[Stirrups36]

another football analogy maker! we could start a club Vonrothbart.

 

anyway, yes, it is tough.

 

But one of the qualities of anyone successful is hard work and determination. The first hurdle has a lot of hurdles following (athletics now), and as Gary Player said (Golf now) 'The harder I practice, the luckier I get".

[Julie 2 Milner]

I think the SA thing is interesting. In Martin's year only one even got through to the second audition and he didn't get upper school.  The boys were not taught by a RBS teacher. He admitted he had no idea what the RBUpper school were looking for. Any interaction I had with RBS made me feel they deemed the associate scheme very seperate and cynically I did wonder if it was fulfilling some outreach objective. Don't get me wrong. It is a great thing to have on your CV for future company auditions but I think we parents give it more weight than it holds.

 

Again depressing as it is at upper school auditions they seem to be overwhelmingly disinterested in so much of what the dancer has already achieved. TBH it is similar to so many sports. Its what you do on the day that counts.

 

I really don't mean to cast such a negative shadow but it cannot be overstressed how tough it all is.

 

Not sure I understand the "self serving" comment made earlier however.

[Balletgirlsplease]

Saw this on Facebook today posted by a dance (performing arts) college.

http://www.theportlandballet.org/BalletBlog/?p=556

15 truths about being a professional dancer.

Edited February 7, 2013 by eloise_please

[charlie4dancin]

Thanks Eloise

Cx

[PippinPointe]

Tulip you mentioned about the girl getting RBS and ENB finals but not Elmhurst and this is quite correct, however she did also get finals at Central along with a place, but chose to go to Tring

[Vonrothbart]

I think the SA thing is interesting. In Martin's year only one even got through to the second audition and he didn't get upper school.  The boys were not taught by a RBS teacher. He admitted he had no idea what the RBUpper school were looking for. Any interaction I had with RBS made me feel they deemed the associate scheme very seperate and cynically I did wonder if it was fulfilling some outreach objective. Don't get me wrong. It is a great thing to have on your CV for future company auditions but I think we parents give it more weight than it holds.

 

Again depressing as it is at upper school auditions they seem to be overwhelmingly disinterested in so much of what the dancer has already achieved. TBH it is similar to so many sports. Its what you do on the day that counts.

 

I really don't mean to cast such a negative shadow but it cannot be overstressed how tough it all is.

 

Not sure I understand the "self serving" comment made earlier however.

Julie, why should what the dancer has already achieved be of much use, it's what potential they have for the future that really counts. A lot of dancers like any other talented people only go so far before hitting their max for many different reasons, so it really is irrelevant, although it can be a little soul destroying for the individual concerned and maybe more so for their parents.   

[taxi4ballet]

 

Oh dear, I didn't manage to quote taxi4ballet properly. I don't know what happened. I pressed on Quote and then on T4B's words. Is that not right?

 

 

It's not just you - it's happening to me too... (I can't do paragraphs now either). Something we have to think about as well, is that at 16 they are not just competing with everyone who has been in vocational training since 11, they are up against the best international candidates wanting to train here too.

Edited February 8, 2013 by taxi4ballet

[Tulip]

Hi pippinpoint you are right ofcourse about this student but I tried to only mention what was required as I wented to keep this persons identity confidential as it turns out the young person has now left Tring and chosen another school, I believe she is a beautiful dancer and a lovely girl. It just show what one school doesn't see others will.

[PippinPointe]

Of course Tulip and rightly so . It just goes to show that "one size does not fit all". This runs both ways, for the schools and the students. It's a complex and competitive world out there and can be quite subjective both ways. One school will offer the complete fit for a student in their training and the student may be a complete fit for the school. Sometimes the fit just isn't quite right .

[robin64]

From reading this forum regularly now for a few years,I get the impression from MANY parents that they are never told if  their child is wasting their time or not. It would be helpful for both child and parents if this were the case,to avoid years of paying fees,sheer hard work,and rejection.Sadly,I think the only way one can tell if you are wasting your time,is if your child continues to receive rejections again and again;especially after the age of 16.Then it could be time to sit down with your  child and have a serious heart to heart about their future chances of making it as a professional dancer.

DDs ballet teacher told me kindly but honestly that DD would never be a classical ballet dancer because sadly for her, her feet are just not the right shape. Her teachers have praised her determination and hard work and she continues with ballet and is making steady progress. DD had been doing ballet for 10 years at this point. Luckily she is very good at tap, modern and singing so can aim for MT. I appreciated the truth, it has helped us be realistic. You have to deal with the reality of a competitive world and nowadays it is the whole world you will be competing with not just dancers from this country. Even the best and brightest will suffer setbacks so be prepared to grit your teeth and move on and that advice is as much for the parents as the dancers. Sometimes it is someone else's day.

[robin64]

Thanks for the link eloise please. I have saved it to print out for my daughter, it has some good advice to offer.

[Julie 2 Milner]

Julie, why should what the dancer has already achieved be of much use, it's what potential they have for the future that really counts. A lot of dancers like any other talented people only go so far before hitting their max for many different reasons, so it really is irrelevant, although it can be a little soul destroying for the individual concerned and maybe more so for their parents.   

No that is exactly what I meant. Depressing in so far as people seem to find this the hardest thing to accept. Even harder that festival results etc hold no weight at all . RAD exams too. Schools interest is what they see on the day and that is right. I always said to my son his achievements were of use to him to show him his progression but that schools didn't give a monkeys and therefore it was up to him at every audition for schools, then companies to perform on the day to the best of his ability because that is all he would be judged on.

I feel maybe in this discussion I've come across as a bit harsh and banging on with the mantra that it is a tough life as a dancer. Also that I don't have much sympathy. Of course i'm sympathetic but I've just seen it so much. Unrealistic expectations. The biggest jump is from a great everyday dancer to a serious training dancer and it isn't a jump everyone will make for so so many reasons.

 

In most things in life you are only ever as good as your last performance.

[Julie 2 Milner]

Eloise I thought that link was excellent. Should be given to all dancers when they start 6th form.

[aileen]

Julie, I don't think that you are being harsh, just realistic. You are one of the few people on this forum who has a child who has actually secured a contract with a professional ballet company and so you know what you are talking about. As you say, there is a world of difference between a dancer who is regarded as very good locally (ie does well in exams, is perhaps an associate, gets parts in EYB, LCB etc and possibly wins prizes at festivals) and one who really has all the ingredients necessary for a career as a professional ballet dancer. I imagine that this often comes down to the body - and there's only so much that can be done to change or improve it - and to a certain something (star quality perhaps) which is hard to define but which makes the dancer stand out in a group of talented peers. Obviously, it's very hard for boys but the competition for girls' places in schools and companies is particularly fierce. A girl from my dd's ballet school went to WL this year. When you watched the class she stood out among quite a talented group of girls who took their ballet seriously. There was something about her which made you notice her. She looked and moved like a miniature ballet dancer.

[CeliB]

I have to say that whilst I agree with everyone who says one must be realistic about ballet as a career I have much sympathy for discouraged- after all surely if you have been consistently encouraged to believe your child has the potential to be a professional (as evinced by doing well in exams, associates places etc) you are right to wonder what's going on when you don't even pass the first round at 16. It's not as if she is complaining that her DD didn't make principal at RBS is it? One would hope that the succession of teachers who have given this impression have some degree of knowledge/competence, otherwise what's the point of them? In almost every other field of endeavour qualifications and accolades received along the way have real meaning and generally do act as predictors of future success. Sometimes it feels like ballet is pure guess work right up until the point you are suddenly Darcy Bussell or equivalent....(and probably even then you worry in case you suddenly stuff it up and get the sack)!!!

[Tulip]

That is why I have already pointed out this young lady has only auditioned at one school so far. I am sure more offers will come flying in. Another point to add sometimes dance teachers can be surprised when their dance student have not been selected for a certain vocational school.