Friends Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 My point about self serving relates to the vocational schools record at obtaining placements for their students at the end of year 11 and year 3 at 6th form. Can anyone give me the % of students achieving places within the 6th form of RBS and Elmhurst having gone through their respective systems since year 7 please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Don't know exact figures at all but I know categorically that having done year 7-11 does not guarantee a place in 6th form. One advantage will be they know the student so if they are having an "off day" they are able to see beyond it. But so many bemoan the fact that they don't get automatic entry to 6th form. At my son's elmhurst auditon every other boy was White Lodge who had not got into 6th form. In his intake the make up was, 1 hammond, 2 non vocational (my son being one), 4 Elmhurst, 2 or 3 white lodge and one Japan. I think this is correct but this is a few years back. But it needs to be remembered that Elmhurst was in its early days in Birmingham so many of the lower school were actually from Camberly and therefore possibly more MT orientated. Others more recent will I'm sure have more up to date info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nana Lily Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Although children at a vocational school may be offered a sixth form place, they may not necessarily take that place up. Remember If they have been there from aged 11 they may wish to spread their wings and try a different environment. To be on the same Campus from 11 to 19 can for some be claustrophobic. So though you may be able to look in end of year show programmes to see who is still there at 6.1 v year 11, it's not actually representative of those who were offered places at the end of y11 for sixth form. So think your question is impossible to answer. NL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Too true Nana Lily as each year is different. My ds year had the lowest intake to Upper School since he joined- the following year was high in comparison. Fewer than half reached Upper School and only eight had been there from year 7. As a parent I'd expect the school to be proactive in helping their existing students secure further training, this they did and my ds year was unusual in that all the students in yr11 that time chose to continue training. But in other years quite a few students have decided against continuing- a lot can happen in 5 years. The percentages are a reflection of this. Once again I would point out that some of ds friends that year failed the first round of Elmhurst auditions but got offered DaDas for ENB and got to final Upper School auditions. Its really not that unusual to be unsuccessful for one school but wanted by another. The students were really lovely dancers and yes, it was a shock that they were not invited to Elmhurst but they obviously did not fit the criteria for that school - it didn't mean they were unsuitable for a ballet career.. The time for a dance student to really re evaluate the situation is if every school (and I don't just mean the "big 4") turns them down. Bearing in mind that even students at RBS have trouble getting jobs , a student in this situation should really accept that they are unlikely to get classical ballet work.( And all Ballet Students should be realistic, be as versatile as possible and ensure that you at least get basic academic gcses.) Different schools look for different things, just as dance companies do. And a young dancer auditioning for a professional contract will probably travel pretty extensively and get plenty of rejections before getting that wonderful first job. Although a director will look at where a dancer trained, at the end of the day past history doesn't matter to them, the audition does. And it goes on, once in a company you can be overlooked for a role you really want but may have to dance something you detest! To be brutally frank very few Ballet Students actually become pure classical dancers- I am talking worldwide here so I would urge all aspiring dancers hoping to train vocationally to really think seriously about it. Do you really love Ballet enough to continue with it even if you never become professional? Are you prepared to push yourself mentally and physically to the limits? Life as a dancer can make the most unsympathetic schools seem like cosy livingrooms! There are NO guarantees of work wherever you've trained. Just as there is no guarantee of a 6th form place if you been in good quality training beforehand wherever that may be (either full time or part time.) But on the otherhand the dance world would be a much poorer one if individuals had not perservered with their dreams after being unsuccessful at auditions or being assessed out or being told they'd never make it... I know of many with such stories. I also wonder how many dancers the world has been deprived of because someone has been told they are wasting their time. I certainly know adults who have bitterly regetted not being given a chance to at least try even though they had successful careers in other fields earning far more money. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I probably have a different perspective, speaking as the parent of a child who has never auditioned for a vocational school and probably never will, but I do find it terribly sad to read talk of students "wasting their time" if they are not being successful at auditions. Probably it's not meant the way it comes across, but I think it's a concept that needs to be challenged. To my mind, if someone enjoys dancing and it brings pleasure to themselves and to others, how can that ever be a waste of time? Of course it is wonderful for those students who are ultimately able to earn their living doing what they love, but there is so much more to it than that. As previous posters have said, only a tiny percentage of students will "make it" as classical ballet dancers, but that doesn't mean that the rest have wasted their time. If my DD is anything to go by they will have had numerous life enhancing experiences and brought a great deal of enjoyment to other people along the way. I think that sometimes in the fiercely competitive world which many students inhabit, it is all too easy to forget that ballet is an art form and to see a lack of progression to the next desired stage as "failure". I really don't think that's true and think it is marvellous that so many young people are filling their lives with this beautiful art form, wonderful music, physical effort and artistry. When you think of all the bad press that youngsters get nowadays, it's brilliant that we have such hard working, expressive and dedicated children. Whether they end up as principals in internationally famous ballet companies or dancing on stage in a local theatre, or just in the studio for their own pleasure, ALL of our children are wonderful and none of them are wasting their time. 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 As my husband would say "What she said" ;-) I haven't got time to join in the discussion fully at the mo but wanted to add that I agree with everything Julie and hfbrew have said (which is interesting as we each have children who are now professional ballet dancers!) And pupsmum is right - and I've said it before - your just have to enjoy the ride as noone's got a crystal ball. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lildancer96 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 In 2 years time , my dd will have 3 Alevels and two years upper school vocational training under her belt. Whatever her career afterwards, I know she would rather have danced alongside her A level tuition rather than just attended an academic school. So if she is doing what she loves most for 2 years , it could never be a waste of time. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawberyy Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I remember the talk that Miss Laine gave before the auditions. She spoke about all the auditionees being queen bees at their own dance schools but now things would be different. My DD's dance teacher had also drummed into her that she might be one of the best in her school but it was a big world out there. I sympathise with Discouraged but the ballet world is very harsh. If you think she has wasted her time now how will you feel if she does get into a ballet school but has no job at the end of the course. Will that be wasted time too? I believe the training you get at any of the 6th form vocational schools is excellent and is a good start even if it isn't a career in dance. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Discouraged, the obvious question is: what does your dd's teacher say about your dd's chances of getting into a vocational 6th form? I'm going to be very blunt here and say that your casual reference to your husband wanting to punch a festival judge makes me wonder whether you and your husband are rather scary parents who the teacher would be reluctant to talk frankly with. Of course, no teacher can make exact predictions and some are better placed than others to know what the competition for places is like and what the schools are currently looking for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletgirlsplease Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 (edited) Always look forward to the 'frank' talks we have with our dance teacher! Keeps our feet well and truly on the ground! But I'm glad she feels she can do that with us! Discouraged has your Dd got some more auditions lined up or had any other call backs yet? Edited February 9, 2013 by eloise_please 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 You do need a frank teacher. Martin's last teacher was brilliant. Said it how she saw it. Sometimes brutally saw. lol One of the best lines as well was at the Wells Summer School. Martin was saying goodbye to everyone. He'd had a great time, won something. Gary Avis shook hands said nice stuff then said "But for Gods sake point your bloody toes. Lazy feet". 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friends Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 Just logged on today after visiting my daughter to discover that I am considered "scary". This did make me smile and laugh. I've never considered myself scary perhaps assertive? I like to make informed decisions so make every effort to gather as much information first. Do you really think my dd applied to these 6th form schools before having any advice from her teachers? On having achieved her RAD Advanced 1 last summer with a distinction we were called to a meeting with her teacher to discuss her future. We have a very good respectful relationship with her teachers. They are the experts so am I wrong to doubt their opinion? I am not one of those pushy mums. I do consider some dance competitions a waste of time and MONEY! My dd took part in her one and only dance festival some 8 years ago and it cost me a total of £320 for 4 minutes performance time. Is it value for money? This would buy me 3 full performances of a ballet with the EYB plus rehearsals and lessons. I know which one I would choose. The EYB gives a much better feeling of being part of a company and friendships thrive. The festivals made me experience negative feelings that didn't make me feel good. As a result of this I would only let my dd take part in competitions that involved the competitors being on a level playing field. The comment on waste of time refers to the sacrifices she has made to pursue this dream. Her 2nd love is hockey and has played at county level but had to stop this as it was considered she should dedicate as much time as possible to her ballet lessons. If it wasn't considered a possibility of her obtaining a 6th form place then I wouldn't have invested in the extra lessons and workshops. All of the decisions for my dd's future are calculated. So far she has 320 UCAS tariff points from her dance exams so not bad for a 15 year old. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two left feet Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 My point about self serving relates to the vocational schools record at obtaining placements for their students at the end of year 11 and year 3 at 6th form. Can anyone give me the % of students achieving places within the 6th form of RBS and Elmhurst having gone through their respective systems since year 7 please? My DC year at RBS of the 24 students who started in year 7 only 8 made it to upper school, the majority of the ones that didn't make it are at ENB or Elmhurst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletgirlsplease Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Blimey that was one expensive festival! My DDs first festival cost £3 each, borrowed tutus, they did a duet and came fourth out of four but I was so proud of them for taking part! To be honest I didn't really notice the other kids nor was I bothered what position they came. If it was 8 years ago I presume your dd was about the same as my two then (6 and 8). I wonder what was triggering the bad feelings that you had at the festival? Most of the festivals we go to aren't about the winning, it's about performing your best, learning to cope with rejection despite trying your hardest and sometimes that resulting in a medal, sometimes not. All skills that would help your DD (and you!) cope in the future. I really feel for you if this is the first time she has has had a rejection as that must feel very tough! Ultimately we all want our kids to avoid heartache and sadness but sometimes life's lessons need to be learnt in order to prepare them for future heartache! I'm hoping you both can take this rejection on the chin and keep trying. It's the knock backs that make you try harder! Good luck!! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Discouraged, what did your dd's teacher(s) say about your dd not getting through to finals for Elmhurst? I suggested that you and your husband might be scary parents because wanting to punch someone because your daughter had not been placed in a festival is, imo, an extreme (and unacceptable) reaction. You don't seem to see this, otherwise I think that you would not have mentioned it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friends Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 (edited) Aileen, We would never punch the judge, it was my husband's sense of humour Edited February 9, 2013 by Discouraged 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirrups36 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 PupsMum - exactly, and that brings me back to my football/rugby analogies. Many do not make it into Arsenal first team. some make a good a career at Leyton Orient or others. For the vast majority, a Friday night kick round, Sunday morning maybe as well and a training session or two gives huge enjoyment. Then they go onto coaching and start mentoring the next cohort of young players. Did they waste their time being an Arsenal schoolboy player... probably not. but then while they are training then indeed, aim for the trees. You WILL get told pretty soon if playing first team unlikely to work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friends Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 The good thing about football is that you can still earn a decent living at semi-professional level. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 No you really can't . Semi professional footballers often don't get paid much at all. Apart from the top flight, footballers do not earn astronomical amounts. So Premiership, (ridiculous sums for some) championship and maybe 1st division. The difference is even The Premiership ballet dancers may well not ever earn huge amounts. The Darcy's etc are rare. For them money is to be made from endorsement etc but ballet is not a high paid profession. Not in the UK anyway. Of course as well what is ok for a single corps de ballet member is not so hot for same person with new baby. But we have discussed pay before. No-one goes into it for the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 One of the reasons we went for the student loan. If our daughter is lucky enough to get a job in a company she will never earn enough to have to pay the loan back. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomuchtallent Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Right you lot have defiantly put me off even trying for vocational school for my dd, she can love ballet as much as she likes and can do as much as she likes, I will try and give her the best for her ballet and make sure it makes her the happiest girl in the world but it sounds like far to much pressure for anybody! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 The pressure these children and young adults are under is intense, they live and breath it, will I get picked, does the teacher like me, will I be assessed out, am I good enough? This is the truth from an experienced parent. The rewards when they come are fantastic, but they don't come often enough. As we were always you don't choose ballet, ballet chooses you. For all the pain and knock backs my daughter absolutely loves her ballet training and would not choose anything else. Even if I was to discourage her, ballet for all the knocks is too much a part of her. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porthesia Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 The thing is that it's tough in every walk of life. Non-DD with a Degree in English cannot get a job. My feeling is that if DD can get a job when she finishes her training, however poorly paid, as long as she is enjoying it and is happy in what she does then I am happy. Far too many people work in jobs that they hate. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Sorry I have two sons who are doing their degrees now and funnily enough one last year got his BA in English and has gone on to do one years teacher training. The boys have not been put under the same pressure as their sister, nowhere near. As parents we had to quite regularly put our daughter back together again and build her confidence up. I'm not blaming the school as I know all vocational kids go through this. Honestly unless you have been on this journey with your child you just will not be able to truly understand what it is like. Ofcourse there are all the good things such as it makes your child much stronger, independent, able to make lots of friends from all over the world. I don't mean to put anyone off vocational school, but believe me getting in to these schools really is just the beginning of a very, very long journey. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 The pressure these children and young adults are under is intense, they live and breath it, will I get picked, does the teacher like me, will I be assessed out, am I good enough? This is the truth from an experienced parent. The rewards when they come are fantastic, but they don't come often enough. As we were always you don't choose ballet, ballet chooses you. For all the pain and knock backs my daughter absolutely loves her ballet training and would not choose anything else. Even if I was to discourage her, ballet for all the knocks is too much a part of her.I couldn't agree more. When class isn't on, my dd just isn't herself. Hence I try my best to send her to holiday courses, otherwise she mopes around! She says she "feels like herself again" when classes re-start. Even though she's not at Vocational school, the competition to keep her Associate place is fierce enough. She got a rare "Excellent" from her Associate Teacher today and just about floated home! You are right Tulip - ballet chooses you. Discouraged, sorry if I've missed this, but does your dd have other auditions lined up? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friends Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 We're just preparing for our early start tomorrow for the RBS auditions. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Aw well lots of good luck for your daughter discouraged. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Excellent - lots of luck to your dd. :-) Does she have others lined up too? The nice thing about 6th form auditions is that the choice opens up; there are more opportunities to audition! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porthesia Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 sorry tulip your post came in between the one I was replying to. I know that ballet/dance is tough and we have supported dd all the way and if she doesn't make it then my feelings are that at least she can look back in later years knowing that she gave it a go. I was also inadequatley triying to say that it's tough for all our kids. Umforunately non-dd doesn't want to follow the teaching route, wish she did 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primrose Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Good luck Discouraged with RBS audition. Keep hopeful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Good luck for the audition tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friends Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Thank you for the continued support. It's 6.30am and all is calm at the moment. I wonder how long this will continue? Fingers crossed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Good luck today - hope dd has a great audition - have our fingers crossed for her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now