Not vocational training.

[NotadanceMa]

I thought it was interesting that the new system now in place from Y7-Y9 at RBS is no longer called ‘vocational training.’

It looks to be an extension of the JA training; a development program, pre-vocational with vocational starting at the next stage.

 

This would be more in keeping with training abroad and Vaganova/Russian training programs that only consider vocational training from Y9/10, up until then it is pre-vocational.

They wait for body changes and hormones to create strength and shape before progression to the training proper so to speak.

I mention it from personal interest, my child Y9 has really only just recently secured a perfect single tour en l’air, no wobbles, really good height, landing etc, they could do them from Y5, however they now understand what is expected, what they are doing and why. They have strength, coordination, control, understanding of how to move on from this. 
 

There is a lot to be said for slowing down the process of vocational training until the child’s body and mind know if they are a fit for the rigours of classical ballet training proper. 
 

Managing expectations become easier also for the child because they know they are still in the development phase of learning to dance, and as much as we might think we know what our child really really wants at age 10/11, they don’t really. Especially boys 😁, my Y6 and my soon to be Y10 child is a completely different person. At Y6 it was a magical thing, at end of Y9 it is exhausting, painful, an endurance test but with moments of love and passion and also a realisation that dance enhances their quality of their day, their brain works better because dance is part of it.
Do they want to dance professionally??? They still have absolutely no idea, and err on the side that it is extremely unlikely given how Covid and Brexit has impacted performing artists in the U.K. 

For me it has been useful to be as harsh and realistic as possible. Spending time training with the Russians really helped focus the mind, they don’t pull any punches, they tell you all the time just what to expect and IME were transparent from the get go.

 

I think possibly the revising of the RB lower school training program might bring about a positive sea change for ballet training in the U.K. and other schools may follow suit. To me it makes better sense, it is a more transparent process and allows for puberty changes and recognises that vocational training at Y7 is just too young.

 

It tells the child you are not on that path just yet…it’s a maybe 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

The new system I remember was met with mixed reaction.  Most thought it was just a change of name of the levels but it does make it clear what can happen in Years 9 and 2nd year upper.  I do still think of it as full time vocational training from Year 7, I suppose it’s hard not to. I also noticed a big spike in “pre-vocational” branded training schemes run by various local dance schools in the last few years precisely aimed at children and parents who wish to get targeted training to prepare them for Year 7 auditions. It’s a very different arrangement and feel to say, Paris Opera Ballet School’s Stage 6 or the first few levels of Dutch NBA. Especially for the latter it doesn’t feel like full time vocational training as such because the students still live at home, not boarders and away from their families. I remember receiving a registration packet for the local academic school where the younger Dutch NBA students attend. Academics were done separately from dance training so the kids were still very much a daily part of their community, doing activities and schooling away from their training. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[NotadanceMa]

I think it will take a while for the new system to bed in and for people to realise the difference, and there is a difference.

of course people now are used to the old system and will be invested in it still being FT vocational training from Y7, however if you research the program it clearly isn’t. It’s not meant to be.

 

Changes like this are huge and mixed feelings are very understandable.

Dance and sport science is also realising that intensive training starting from a young age is not a good thing re injury and burnout, and associated mental health issues, evidence underpins waiting for bodies to develop especially strength, shape and facility, young brains to be more rounded and resilient etc 

 

As the new system goes forward and new children join I believe it has the opportunity to reframe peoples understanding, attitudes and expectations about what is on offer; especially when the last of the old system is no longer at RB.

 

I am a huge advocate of children remaining at home wherever possible to continue dance training keeping their lives and friends intact until either Y9 or after GCSEs. (I would rather have waited until US but money dictated choices for my child)

With the current cost of living crisis, ballet training would have gone out the window for us.

 

 We managed it until Y9 and whilst it has been an ok decision for my child, it has definitely not been without problems.  
 

I realise now after what feels like a lifetime of ballet conversations that no vocational training residential or otherwise is without its issues or problems. Some surmountable some not. Again I believe as the systems change and more rigid traditional approaches to training die out with new evidence supporting these changes, culture will also be revisited and reframed. I hope that ballet training can take a deep breath and enter the 21st century. It is long overdue.

 

 

 

[Kerfuffle]

It makes sense that proper vocational training needs to take place later, once you know the instrument you are dealing with. This goes the same for singing - you can’t mature a body before it’s ready, so young singers have to wait sometimes until they are ready, and in a similar way have to deal with voices breaking then settling. This  pre-pubescent hothousing in ballet  really needs to be put on hold. Hormones make a huge contribution towards becoming a dancer, boys develop the fire power for their jumps and girls can gain flexibility and bone strength through their menstrusp cycles. It also enhances their brains, and it’s at this point that they can dance with real feeling and start to understand better romantic ideas and relationships. And ages 11-14 are particularly difficult for most children in terms of emotions, body image and general changes brought about by early puberty. Of  course up until that age it’s great to develop a sound classical technique, and the foundations for pointe work in the case of girls but it doesn’t have to be this crazy arms race. None of this makes parents’ decisions any easier when it comes to training choices though , and unless living in an area like London where there are lots of pre-vocational opportunities but in my opinion Europe/USA have got a better system where children stay at home for longer. We need serious investment into CAT schemes around the country or something similar, perhaps greater hours offered by Associates. 

[NotadanceMa]

My child started on the CAT scheme in London when they started JA’s, of course it has a contemporary focus in London, so they only did a year as they were ballet obsessed. How I wish I had encouraged them to stay put and wait, now at 14 whilst enjoying ballet has a strong pull and keener interest in contemporary dance.

 

All that said the CAT system of training in our short experience was absolutely excellent. Slow steady build focusing on technique, but also individuality, with increasing attendance and training progressing with age, recognising the physical and mental changes that come with puberty. Actively encouraging the child to maintain links to school and social groups where they live. Diverse and inclusive. Nothing has exceeded its format and philosophy to date for me. If there had been a ballet CAT in London, child would still be there now.

 

Also again of note is the wonderful full day pre-vocational training offered by places like Rambert, the amazing full day associate pre vocational program offered by Central to enhance existing dance training.

 

 

 

 

[Kerfuffle]

That does excellent, keeping options open while showing a proper understanding in adolescent development. I think they need more of those also offering a classical programme nationwide. Nothing like that exists here either, but I’ve heard the one in Leeds is really good. Your comments about really understanding what you’re committing yourself to at 11 also resonates with a mother of a DD, it’s an extreme lifestyle that involves a lot of sacrifice and dedication. Kids need to develop their sense of identity in a loving environment, be able to accept rejection/failure with support around them. They need privacy to lick their wounds sometimes too! I know boarding school wouldn’t have worked for my DD at 11, it’s too intense and too much of a bubble. 

[NotadanceMa]

Just now, Kerfuffle said:

That does excellent, keeping options open while showing a proper understanding in adolescent development. I think they need more of those also offering a classical programme nationwide. Nothing like that exists here either, but I’ve heard the one in Leeds is really good. Your comments about really understanding what you’re committing yourself to at 11 also resonates with a mother of a DD, it’s an extreme lifestyle that involves a lot of sacrifice and dedication. Kids need to develop their sense of identity in a loving environment, be able to accept rejection/failure with support around them. They need privacy to lick their wounds sometimes too! I know boarding school wouldn’t have worked for my DD at 11, it’s too intense and too much of a bubble. 

Boarding is the aspect of training my child likes the least. They miss me, their life and their friends, they are spending the summer deciding ... And absolutely it is an extreme lifestyle. I used to refer to classical ballet fanaticism as a cult 😊 I still hold somewhat to that now. 

If I could turn back time I would run away screaming and never have taken my child down this path. And it is absolutely us adults that initially take our children down it. My teen has said a few times over the last 18 months I wish I had never started ballet in the first place because now it feels impossible to give up, what would I be without it. 😞 
Funny old world this forum shines a light into.

[Kerfuffle]

I feel for you both, it’s really tough. I was a boarder in my teens at an academic (non vocational)  school and that was hard even then, without having the pressure of striving to be a dancer, with only other dancers around!  It sounds claustrophobic. It’s so easy to get sucked into the cult of ballet, especially once your child looks like they have potential. We’ve been lucky and my daughter (who is 15)  has only just started being properly and  intensely trained in the past year. She has exceptionally supportive teachers who challenge and encourage her so she’s flourishing. The next step really scares me though, I dread to think where it might take us! Whatever your son decides he’s lucky to have you understanding his situation, and supporting him. It can be a difficult addiction to give up. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Kerfuffle

[taxi4ballet]

This is all very well, but I can pretty much guarantee exactly what will happen. Slow and steady does not win the race, certainly not for girls.

 

Years 10 & 11 will be stuffed with international students who have already been intensively trained elsewhere and pushed hard from an early age; and who have done well at YAGP and other international competitions. Home-trained students will not get a look-in.

 

Training elsewhere in the world is completely different to what it is here. Some years ago, DD went on a summer course and shared a dorm with some Japanese girls. The Japanese girls were all easily capable (at the age of about 12) of doing triple pirouettes on pointe and doing them very well. They had all been on pointe for several years already, and were considerably further on in their training than DD was. Yes, I know that it is frowned on to put girls on pointe that young, but what I'm trying to say is that training in other countries is years ahead of what we offer in the UK. That's why ENBS holds nearly all its upper school auditions overseas. Because they don't expect to find what they are looking for here.

 

If RBS is not going to call years 7-9 vocational training, then what is it?

 

 

[Kate_N]

And then we have someone like Ms Miko Fogerty,  trained in this way, who reached high levels in competitions, and had a very short career ... the push, push, push system doesn't guarantee a career either.

 

 

[taxi4ballet]

No, I agree, but what it does do is prevent the slow burners from accessing training at the highest level in the first place.

 

Why is it that the AD of RBS goes to the Prix instead of attending his own US audition? Why is it that the dates have clashed on more than one occasion? Why is the audition date not moved to a different day? I'll tell you why. Because he knows he is going to find what he's looking for at the Prix, that's why.

[NotadanceMa]

24 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

If RBS is not going to call years 7-9 vocational training, then what is it?

It’s called a Developmental Training Program.

 

I think this kind of training creates more possibilities not less.

High profile ballet schools all look to find good students from competitions this is just how it is. 
 

I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB and explore the possibly changing landscape of dance training. It would be good to keep the thread open. 😌

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the first cohort of the new RB program at Y9 and Y11. Until then we just don’t know where the students will come from; not for sure anyway.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

19 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

It’s called a Developmental Training Program.

 

I think this kind of training creates more possibilities not less.

High profile ballet schools all look to find good students from competitions this is just how it is. 
 

I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB and explore the possibly changing landscape of dance training. It would be good to keep the thread open. 😌

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the first cohort of the new RB program at Y9 and Y11. Until then we just don’t know where the students will come from; not for sure anyway.

Aren’t the current Y9s the first to be under that new set-up? In which case someone on this forum had previously mentioned that about half of the girls were not offered a Y10 place and of those staying, only 2 are British. I could be wrong but I seem to recall reading this on another thread, perhaps the one that was locked. I’ve heard of the numbers for Y11 too but would be hesitant to put on here as it’s been pointed out in the past that I don’t have a child who’s gone to that school plus this thread might get locked if it gets too specific. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[NotadanceMa]

1 minute ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Aren’t the current Y9s the first to be under that new set-up? In which case someone on this forum had previously mentioned that about half of the girls were not offered a Y10 place and of those staying, only 2 are British. I could be wrong but I seem to recall reading this on another thread, perhaps the one that was locked. 

No they’re not. The program started in Sept 21

9 girls and 3 boys were assessed out for Y10.

we knew many of them and lots of them will be starting new vocational training places in Sept. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by NotadanceMa

[taxi4ballet]

10 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB 

Yes, I appreciate that. 🙂

 

Negative discussions are just as useful as positive discussions when people are trying to make up their minds about whether or not any full-time ballet school is going to be suitable for their dc. Much was made on a recent thread about people needing to do thorough research into the schools and using that research to help them in their decision-making process. Unfortunately, threads that show vocational training in a less than positive light are often locked, and in some cases, deleted altogether, which doesn't help matters. I can understand (and support) the reasons why the moderators sometimes have to take these decisions, but all the same, we end up losing some of the very information people are looking for at the same time. We are all guilty of having looked at this industry through rose-tinted goggles, and it doesn't do anyone any favours if things are only ever talked about in a positive light.

 

[NotadanceMa]

1 minute ago, taxi4ballet said:

Yes, I appreciate that. 🙂

 

Negative discussions are just as useful as positive discussions when people are trying to make up their minds about whether or not any full-time ballet school is going to be suitable for their dc. Much was made on a recent thread about people needing to do thorough research into the schools and using that research to help them in their decision-making process. Unfortunately, threads that show vocational training in a less than positive light are often locked, and in some cases, deleted altogether, which doesn't help matters. I can understand (and support) the reasons why the moderators sometimes have to take these decisions, but all the same, we end up losing some of the very information people are looking for at the same time. We are all guilty of having looked at this industry through rose-tinted goggles, and it doesn't do anyone any favours if things are only ever talked about in a positive light.

 

Problem is there is a lot of negativity directed at RB and we have all taken part in those discussions many times over, we know them off by heart by now. however if we can open out our discussion a bit maybe we can keep the thread going for a while and look at how things might play out in a more creative way.

 

it’s the first significant change in any training program for a long time.

[Lifeafterballet]

This new system and the statistics of how many children leave a particular school at the end of year 9 supports my personal belief and from experience that 11 is far too young to start vocational training. It’s a complete waste of money too 😏 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

38 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

It’s called a Developmental Training Program.

 

I think this kind of training creates more possibilities not less.

High profile ballet schools all look to find good students from competitions this is just how it is. 
 

I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB and explore the possibly changing landscape of dance training. It would be good to keep the thread open. 😌

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the first cohort of the new RB program at Y9 and Y11. Until then we just don’t know where the students will come from; not for sure anyway.

In that case, I might be in the minority here but I find it hard to think of Y7-Y9 as not vocational rebranded under a new name. After all, isn’t RBS a vocational school and its JA programme perhaps the pre-vocational (non-full time) scheme? I’m pretty sure I’ve also seen dance schools post about their students who will be starting vocational school in September. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[BalletBoysDad]

Reading both positive and negative opinions on the vocational route can indeed be very helpful food for thought when making immense decisions about your own child’s future. Any well researched or well intended parent should be doing that, as no one has a crystal ball.  The majority of the parents I know accepting their offers for WL (and other vocational schools) have not done that ‘in awe of the name’ or lightly. In the same way people who have chosen to decline their offers (or not even audition) and not go down this route also gave it immense consideration .
 

However, the frequent reality seems to be, in my short time on the forum, any mention of vocational training immediately comes under immense critique. Accusations from ‘hothousing’ our children at one end of the spectrum, or sending them on a ‘massive sleepover’ at the other. It feels like no one can proactively and with good intention discuss their participation in the path without being made to feel foolish or immensely naïve. 
 

I am as interested as anyone as to what the full three year foundation programme achieves, and what the results/statistics look like for those entering this year who will have done the full 3 years.  And certainly hope it’s an improvement for the better. 

[BalletBoysDad]

And in the spirit of lively, respectful, dynamic and multi-opinionated debate, I very much hope this thread stays open.

[Jan McNulty]

Just a reminder about the Forum's policy on discussing schools:

 

 

 

[The red shoes]

1 hour ago, NotadanceMa said:

It’s called a Developmental Training Program.

 

I think this kind of training creates more possibilities not less.

High profile ballet schools all look to find good students from competitions this is just how it is. 
 

I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB and explore the possibly changing landscape of dance training. It would be good to keep the thread open. 😌

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the first cohort of the new RB program at Y9 and Y11. Until then we just don’t know where the students will come from; not for sure anyway.

It’s not. It’s actually called “ Foundation programme” 

[The red shoes]

7 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

Just a reminder about the Forum's policy on discussing schools:

 

 

 

Thank you 🙏 

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

We have reality and then we have hope..I love your post NotadanceMa. And I believe in it. I believe in improvements which will benefit these young and vulnerable humans in delivering  their potential. It's good that parents see the nuances in those changes as positive because that is what will eventually change things for the better.
HOWEVER this is a post re 1st hand experience

It is a post about the reality of students suffering NOW. Right now. I don't believe it is a negative post. I believe it to be a helpful way to change the situation so that ALL students receive decent teaching that is positive and helpful to that student because that is the agreement we entered into when we paid a large sum of money to a school to teach our children. It is also the agreement our children entered into when they physically break themselves day after day. They do it to get the feedback they need to improve.

We are the grown ups. We are beyond worrying if our child is a favourite. We are beyond worrying if our child is chosen for performance opportunities. All we are asking is that the teacher nurtures and teaches our child to the best of their ability so that our child can reach their potential. They may never gain a contract in Classical ballet and that's absolutely fine!  We understood that on signing them in. It is not news. What is NOT okay is systematic abuse of students( however small the numbers) belittling students, humiliating students, ignoring students ( no corrections for a very long period of time, sometimes a whole year) and never praising or giving any sign at all of any development or positive feedback ( for 1 entire year) despite the students working like Trojans at the few corrections initially given.
As parents, and fellow humans please ask yourself if you care enough to understand that this situation is happening today. 
When I read posts re certain schools, what strikes me is how black and white the situations appear. It is just not like that in reality! It is a confusing, uncertain picture with many chaotic examples and references. 
I have just given you some above. But for some students in that same class, it is an entirely different scenario. They receive praise when they improve. They are helped and nurtured. Next year, with a different teacher, those students may be the ones who are not getting the help and nurture and waste a year of precious time.

Its this inconsistency that is worrying and creates tension and anxiety for everyone.

This is only my first post, there is more, because it's important to discuss scenarios that are happening right under our noses. And not to do that, would mean collaborating in something that is wrong.

And although this post is referencing a certain school, I know for a fact, it goes on in them all.

[BattementBatty]

6 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I feel for you both, it’s really tough. I was a boarder in my teens at an academic (non vocational)  school and that was hard even then, without having the pressure of striving to be a dancer, with only other dancers around!  It sounds claustrophobic. It’s so easy to get sucked into the cult of ballet, especially once your child looks like they have potential. We’ve been lucky and my daughter (who is 15)  has only just started being properly and  intensely trained in the past year. She has exceptionally supportive teachers who challenge and encourage her so she’s flourishing. The next step really scares me though, I dread to think where it might take us! Whatever your son decides he’s lucky to have you understanding his situation, and supporting him. It can be a difficult addiction to give up. 

Out of interest what hours of training is she doing?  My daughter is going into year 9 and looking being ready to apply to US. Financing this is looking to be a nightmare! 

[BattementBatty]

2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

This is all very well, but I can pretty much guarantee exactly what will happen. Slow and steady does not win the race, certainly not for girls.

 

Years 10 & 11 will be stuffed with international students who have already been intensively trained elsewhere and pushed hard from an early age; and who have done well at YAGP and other international competitions. Home-trained students will not get a look-in.

 

Training elsewhere in the world is completely different to what it is here. Some years ago, DD went on a summer course and shared a dorm with some Japanese girls. The Japanese girls were all easily capable (at the age of about 12) of doing triple pirouettes on pointe and doing them very well. They had all been on pointe for several years already, and were considerably further on in their training than DD was. Yes, I know that it is frowned on to put girls on pointe that young, but what I'm trying to say is that training in other countries is years ahead of what we offer in the UK. That's why ENBS holds nearly all its upper school auditions overseas. Because they don't expect to find what they are looking for here.

 

If RBS is not going to call years 7-9 vocational training, then what is it?

 

 

This is the issue though isn’t it. I totally agree that it is better to start a bit older but the girls in the USA and Asia are being hothoused.

[Jan McNulty]

1 hour ago, valentina said:

We have reality and then we have hope.

 

Just another reminder about the rules for discussing schools:

 

 

And the Acceptable Use Policy:

 

 

 

[NotadanceMa]

1 hour ago, The red shoes said:

It’s not. It’s actually called “ Foundation programme” 

I read in the literature it was a development program so my mistake however definitely not vocational anymore.

[FlexyNexy]

On 14/07/2022 at 16:50, taxi4ballet said:

This is all very well, but I can pretty much guarantee exactly what will happen. Slow and steady does not win the race, certainly not for girls.

 

Years 10 & 11 will be stuffed with international students who have already been intensively trained elsewhere and pushed hard from an early age; and who have done well at YAGP and other international competitions. Home-trained students will not get a look-in.

 

Training elsewhere in the world is completely different to what it is here. Some years ago, DD went on a summer course and shared a dorm with some Japanese girls. The Japanese girls were all easily capable (at the age of about 12) of doing triple pirouettes on pointe and doing them very well. They had all been on pointe for several years already, and were considerably further on in their training than DD was. Yes, I know that it is frowned on to put girls on pointe that young, but what I'm trying to say is that training in other countries is years ahead of what we offer in the UK. That's why ENBS holds nearly all its upper school auditions overseas. Because they don't expect to find what they are looking for here.

 

If RBS is not going to call years 7-9 vocational training, then what is it?

 

 

I have to agree.

What is different from some European boys or girls from our children? Why our kids are falling off from double pirouette and boys don't have the strength, poor jumps and wobble? Are we made differently?

 

As a parent of nearly 20 years old child who went through British (non vocational) and overseas training it is very important to listen to both sides and experiences because vocational schools will tell you what parents wants to hear and looks good on social media. 
It is like researching the right secondary school for your non dance child. The best feedback you get in front of the school gates, what is coming out of them and parents standing by the gate. Not on Ofsted report for which teachers prepare days in advance before the inspectors come. Talking of boys, had the chance to see junior boys in Europe, Latin America and Caribbean and their training is far more advanced than I saw in British schools and while watching many of end of the year school programs. I am not talking talent. But the balance, core strength, technique is incomparable. I do feel that our schools are letting down their own home-grown talent by not bringing the training up to the speed it is elsewhere. The boys in Cuba for example are like ninjas. No fancy studios or equipment, concrete floor and you almost feel they are born to this world spinning. They don’t take privates, they are simply driven by solid technique, physical education, and on top driven by poverty that dance is for many the ticket and way out of the country. 
So, get this, bring him to fully airconditioned studio with proper floor for audition, then compare the “drive” to kid you and I have. Incomparable.  

Yet again this is my opinion and what I saw with my eyes and lived through with my own DD.

I too have been naïve, until my own DD opened my eyes, and she has seen the level of training on her 1st ever European easter or it was summer school. But it all came with age. It was easy when she was primary age. Many opportunities, danced with companies as kid extra, did the lot. She must be around 13 when something clicked in her and realised that she would never be able to “compete” with the girls outside unless she joins them. No one is interested in your associates and small primary years productions on your CV. Neither her dancing with Mariinsky is mentioned on her CV as no one looks so far down. What is important in my opinion is what you do 15 +

I have two of my daughters’ overseas teachers on my Facebook as “friends”. I sometimes post snippets of shows where my daughter danced as a throwback in her younger years and/ or share posts from other schools and their dances. I was forced to delete so many of my own home videos because the critique the teachers innocently wrote on poor technique of the dancers and mainly no strength could upset some dance mums I have as friends too and out of respect.
We need to stop being blind to this fact that our children are not very well-trained comparing to dancers that you see in Europe. Upper school students are mainly international dancers trained elsewhere. Why is that?

My post is not to offend our British talented kids, but maybe to start wondering as mothers/ fathers why we all pay huge fees, live in a car driving up and down UK and when it comes to upper schools, our own kids are not taken up.  
Why my own daughter was “forced” to leave home and seek better training elsewhere. 
The school my daughter was, the kids start from pre-schoolers, then they move to primary all the way to secondary, then they graduate and get straight 6 months practical in an own associated company or are distribute to second national ballet company in the country. During the 6 months, the best dancers are kept and rest will continue do teaching master degree or get jobs elsewhere or leave dance.
The assessments are strict, you get warning for weight, strength, and academics…and if you do not pass end of year exams, you repeat a year. If no improvement is done, you are out. 
They tell you straight in the audition, if you do not get into their competition team (that does all the national and international prix etc), you will not find success in the school or the associated company. At least you know where you are from the start. They only audition nationally and if they have spots left, they take international applicants. Nationals are priority and you can feel it throughout the year. Homegrown kids are prioritised when taking part in the company productions (Nutcrackers and similar) and other festivities. They also have extra academics and international kids would only have fraction of it due to language barrier, I guess.
The year my own DD auditioned; she was the only foreign girl they took on. They took about 5 international boys. 

 

The first thing they did, they striped her off tbe bad technique she was taught here. The head of year asked her if she ever danced, why her muscles are developing in wrong places, that she need to loose weight and they stood her up on scale in front of the whole class (they do not really care how they speak to you).
After graduation only 2 boys were accepted to the company (mainly due to covid and company just does not have space). No girls at all. When I looked at some girls, I thought, wow, they would take spot in any EU company straight away. Well, 2 I know are soloists and barely 16.

 

I think our schools are yet to learn a lot. No matter vocational or non.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Jan McNulty
A sentence has been deleted with the permission of the poster

[Beezie]

I know so many ex pre-pro dancers who are doing fabulous in non-dance careers!  It’s worth giving the dance dream a shot, but there is a fabulous life-long non-dance career waiting for each one of these girls and boys too.  (Just to infuse positivity to some of the posters who regret going down the dance path.)

 

And with regard to the US:  It is a big country with a lot of dancers.  I don’t think you are seeing better training.  I think you are just seeing probability x population.  

[Millicent]

For us one of the issues is accessing good quality local training. There are lots of recreational dance schools but they only offer maybe 2-3hrs ballet training a week. There are some excellent private teachers but they are in high demand so managing to get a class (and get there and back) isn't always easy. And that would still only be about 1hr a week.

 

I don't see how it's possible to get local training that is anything near as good as vocational schools can offer. I don't want my DD to go to boarding school but she is desperate for more intensive training and I don't see any viable options for her getting it outside of vocational school.

[Dancedreamer]

1 hour ago, Millicent said:

For us one of the issues is accessing good quality local training. There are lots of recreational dance schools but they only offer maybe 2-3hrs ballet training a week. There are some excellent private teachers but they are in high demand so managing to get a class (and get there and back) isn't always easy. And that would still only be about 1hr a week.

 

I don't see how it's possible to get local training that is anything near as good as vocational schools can offer. I don't want my DD to go to boarding school but she is desperate for more intensive training and I don't see any viable options for her getting it outside of vocational school.

I am in the same kind of boat with my DC they are also thinking about the academic side of things as well as being able to access quality training. The schools round here are weak academically and we have to travel to get decent training, and the prices of coaching is expensive, so our choice took all that into consideration. No parent wants to willingly send their child away to school we will miss our child immensely but we are equally happy with the chosen schools ethos and my child is looking forward to his journey. We are under no illusion that he will stay put there could be a number of things that arise in the next however many years . My hope is that all schools have a healthier approach to well being and the students happiness not just their physicality. 

[Allwrong]

It strikes me that ballet training is going in two very different directions at the moment which seem contradictory. One seems more positive than the other. On the one hand, there is the rise of the hot-housed dancing child. I'm sure when my daughter was around 10, there was not the same industry of private classes and intensive training available to pre-vocational school children, and the pressure consequently less. It's understandable when the most competitive schools are recruiting so readily from overseas where this sort of intensive training is clearly producing remarkable young dancers who can 'oust' locally trained dancers. Social media comparisons also have a part to play. I am glad not to have had this pressure at that point.

 

On the other hand, though, and this chimes with the RBS re-naming of years 7-9, the reality of training for all but the very most outstanding is that it is continuing for longer, with most graduating dancers seeming to move on to a post-graduate year or apprenticeship. I don't think this is just a money-spinning initiative, as the technical level now required of a ballet dancer is absolutely phenomenal and might well require the extra training time. It seems a positive move if the ballet world is starting to recognise the need to give young bodies time to mature and strengthen before extreme demands are placed on them. And perhaps more importantly, young minds too. It would be great to think that new generations of dancers would have been able to commit to the gruelling requirements we now make of vocational trainees at an age much more suitable to make those decisions, and would have been able to combine training from home with a normal family life through more years of childhood. 

 

As my own DD is very academic,  we chose to keep ballet very much as a hobby. However that hobby became a passion, and she is now determined to give it her best shot at making it a career. She says she knows that the odds are stacked against her for not having attended vocational school before aged 18, but does not regret her path at all as, even though she was pretty unhappy at her academic school, her education and home life have been much richer. Her local teacher is excellent, but we are not geographically well situated, so she trained seriously but for limited hours (pretty similar to what Millicent can access). However, at key points along the way we have had lucky encounters with ballet fairy godmothers who have supported us in the idea that it is possible to succeed without conventional vocational training. Her late entry into intensive training has not left her with the training deficit she expected, she feels mentally very grounded, very independent and ready to face failure (being under-trained, there have been very many disappointments along the way!), and we are amazed that she is proving so able to catch up technically.

 

This more slow-burn and less disruptive way may be the way forward in the future for some dancers. These dancers are not the ones who will make it straight into the top international companies, but there might be space for them in less well-known companies where they can flourish. She has dance-school friends going into smaller European companies who she hopes to emulate, which makes it look as though a more modest-scale dream might be possible.