Academic results at vocational schools

[Pinksocks]

Could anyone tell me which vocational schools offer the best academic teaching.  Interested in knowing more about the quality of academic teaching at moorlands in particular.

[Lifeafterballet]

I think it all depends on how motivated the child is to have a plan B / backup. 
Elmhurst in our personal experience had excellent academic teachers who were incredibly supportive and went above and beyond, especially at A level. The very small class size is a real bonus. The Maths teacher there is particularly fab !! Both my children did very well and this set them up nicely for a change of direction 😊

[Robinredbreast]

Tring is excellent in academics. Pupils get into Oxbridge, medicine etc. Look on their website for student destinations. 

[margarite]

We're happy with the academics at Hammond. My daughter (who was firmly in the middle of the class all the way through primary school and therefore a bit overlooked ) has really benefitted from the smaller class sizes ( approx range 8 to 15 pupils depending on subject). In maths and science in particular she's gone from needing quite a lot of support to being in the top third of the class and is on track to get some really solid GSCEs. Yes, there are less subjects to choose from, but this is balanced out by the extra attention each child gets.

[Blue Box Ballet]

Tring, 

 

https://www.tringpark.com/gcse-results-day-2021/

https://www.tringpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/ACADEMIC-RESULTS.pdf

 

[Janeparent]

4 hours ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

I think it all depends on how motivated the child is to have a plan B / backup. 
Elmhurst in our personal experience had excellent academic teachers who were incredibly supportive and went above and beyond, especially at A level. The very small class size is a real bonus. The Maths teacher there is particularly fab !! Both my children did very well and this set them up nicely for a change of direction 😊

Just bear in mind that class sizes vary a lot - not all the year groups at Elmhurst are small.

[Lifeafterballet]

46 minutes ago, Janeparent said:

Just bear in mind that class sizes vary a lot - not all the year groups at Elmhurst are small.

Ballet classes are getting increasingly bigger but A levels in particular aren’t for every student and compared to the local college my older non vocational son attended they are a lot smaller. My two younger, vocational children, had a more personal experience. They did just as well as their sibling but alongside intense ballet training. 

[Janeparent]

4 minutes ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

Ballet classes are getting increasingly bigger but A levels in particular aren’t for every student and compared to the local college my older non vocational son attended they are a lot smaller. My two younger, vocational children, had a more personal experience. They did just as well as their sibling but alongside intense ballet training. 

I think the original question was referring to lower school academics as well as A levels though? My child’s year group at Elmhurst is as big as it would have been at our local state school, and much bigger than at our local independent school. The teaching is generally excellent, but it is a big class with a huge range of ability.

[Lifeafterballet]

5 minutes ago, Janeparent said:

I think the original question was referring to lower school academics as well as A levels though? My child’s year group at Elmhurst is as big as it would have been at our local state school, and much bigger than at our local independent school. The teaching is generally excellent, but it is a big class with a huge range of ability.

Ds just did A levels, and Dd did GCSEs and A levels. They were both done and dusted pre Covid and I agree that their class sizes were smaller than the current ones. There were a variety of abilities within the gcse classes, where as our older non vocational son was streamed on ability. I’m not sure whether this is a good thing or bad as it’s not my area. All I believe is that if your child wants to learn and is enthusiastic and engages then we found Elmhurst to be fabulous academically. I am very grateful for not only the academic support my children received but the psychological and emotional support at the tough times. 

[Pinksocks]

Thank you everyone- some interesting points - anyone with experience of Moorlands? 

[Dancing unicorn]

Ok so we have a different view of Elmhurst! We found dd had no help at all from teachers academically. 

Whereas Hammond was fabulous and she came out with 9 GCSE’s with good grades, I doubt she would have achieved the same at Elmhurst. 

[Farawaydancer]

Our experience of Elmhurst is that the academic support has been excellent, including meeting SEN. GCSE grades achieved far exceeded what we would have expected from a ‘mainstream’ school. Our experience at Hammond is that academics are variable and they’re struggling to meet the needs of the top end of the class. 

[Balletmummy18]

When my dd was at WL ( left June 2021 ) academics were excellent and she left with the top grades in all her GSCES- indeed her ex- maths teacher is still tutoring privately for ALevel as she’s doing a diploma course. Pupils were set by ability in some classes which of course were small due to overall year numbers. However the turn over of staff was and remains very high so I can’t comment on current standards this year . 

[Lisa O`Brien]

4 hours ago, Balletmummy18 said:

When my dd was at WL ( left June 2021 ) academics were excellent and she left with the top grades in all her GSCES- indeed her ex- maths teacher is still tutoring privately for ALevel as she’s doing a diploma course. Pupils were set by ability in some classes which of course were small due to overall year numbers. However the turn over of staff was and remains very high so I can’t comment on current standards this year . 

Hi. Was interested in what you said about the turnover of staff at WL being very high. Do you mean just academic staff? And do you have any idea why this might be?  ( Just thought i'd ask as it might be useful for prospective/current parents to know).

[NotadanceMa]

15 hours ago, Dancing unicorn said:

Ok so we have a different view of Elmhurst! We found dd had no help at all from teachers academically. 

Whereas Hammond was fabulous and she came out with 9 GCSE’s with good grades, I doubt she would have achieved the same at Elmhurst. 

I can only add to this anecdotally, we have friends that removed their Y7 and Y8 children from Elmhurst because the academic and unfortunately ballet training was so poor in their experience.

I was also advised not to send my child there for Y8 place offer by a vocational AD well known for their training program outside the main schools. 

There was also a post on here recently that said a member had removed their child with Dyslexia because they were offered not a scintilla of learning support from Elmhurst despite it being offered as part of their SEN policy.

Again anecdotally Tring has the best reputation for academics, it makes no distinction IME between vocational training and academics pushing the students to achieve excellent grades alongside vocational excellence. Recognising that dance and performing arts are cut throat worlds getting even harder to break into.

I attended an Open Day there and was very impressed by what the school offered, the success of there GCSE’s offered and taken, and the calibre of the teachers on the academic faculty. I also liked their honesty and transparency about why they pushed academics as much as the vocational training.
The Royal Ballet historically has never been associated or chosen for outstanding  academics, mostly offering soft subjects, with their focus understandably on the vocational training.

Don’t shoot the messenger, we have a number of friends with children in all these schools, except Hammond and my child is also in one of them.

My comments are based on my current personal experience and my friends past and current experience; it is not casting any negative aspersions on any particular school just relaying my real-time  experience.
 

[SissonneDoublee]

As a secondary teacher I have monitored DD’s academics since the start of Year 7 without concerns. There have been teachers that I have been very impressed by, and some less so, but all very much in line with what I would consider normal. I am aware of adjustments made for students with SEN that have been well outside what a state school would have been able to offer, although these have not been needed for DD. 

Be wary of anecdotal tales of friends of friends that have removed their child for XYZ reason. In my experience parents that remove their child from vocational school often delay doing so until they or their child are so unhappy that they have a plethora of reasons why it isn’t the right school for them. What we have seen in this thread so far (and I’m so many other threads) is that when it comes to academics or artistic training, different schools suit different children. ‘Vocational’ teachers not attached to a vocational school can also have their own axe to grind.

 

Look at the GCSE and A Level results from 2019. Anything since then is unreliable. Parents of children currently in Year 10 haven’t had a full uninterrupted academic year since Year 7, so this is another thing to bear in mind when hearing opinions. Using the 2019 data, the four main vocational schools get good results. Not in line with highly academic private schools, but then highly academic private schools don’t have the pressure of (or success rate at) getting children into 16+ ballet training. Tring has a wider selection of A Levels on offer than Royal or Elmhurst, but presumably with more students in each year group (given that they have dance and MT) this is easier to timetable. 

 

Look for a school that suits your child academically, artistically and pastorally. All three areas are equally important. And then hope that they are what the school is looking for too! It’s a difficult fit to get just right, and needs lots of monitoring and supporting along the way.

[NotadanceMa]

2 minutes ago, SissonneDoublee said:

Be wary of anecdotal tales of friends of friends that have removed their child for XYZ reason. In my experience parents that remove their child from vocational school often delay doing so until they or their child are so unhappy that they have a plethora of reasons why it isn’t the right school for them. What we have seen in this thread so far (and I’m so many other threads) is that when it comes to academics or artistic training, different schools suit different children. ‘Vocational’ teachers not attached to a vocational school can also have their own axe to grind.

I just want to comment on this part in relation to my post. The ‘anecdotal’ is by way of saying my friends cannot speak for themselves on here. We have to work within the forum guidelines so I am mindful of that when posting.
These parents, my friends did not wait, they removed their children as soon as the problems arose as asked in the OP’s question, and the problems were primarily with the academics offered and taught being weak. They are now in different vocational schools and are happy with the academics offered.

The AD whom I cannot name is well known on here and has no axe to grind working between their own vocational training business and also recently as part of the faculty of one of the main vocational training schools. I am trying to protect peoples identity who are not on here to post for themselves. I would not post these things if I felt it would mislead people reading my posts, or if they were not accurate.

It might be that what you wrote @SissonneDoubleewas not linked to what I posted, but just in case it was I felt it important to clarify any areas of confusion.

This thread is about the quality of academics offered by the schools, not the vocational training as is so much discussed on this forum. The academics between the vocational training schools from my experience are very varied indeed. 

[Kate_N]

25 minutes ago, SissonneDoublee said:

Be wary of anecdotal tales of friends of friends that have removed their child for XYZ reason

 

I think if this thread shows anything for certain, it is that different children respond to the same situation in different ways! This is absolutely normal in any educational setting - ballet, school, hobbies, and so on - teachers know that what works well for one pupil doesn't necessarily work so well for another.

[Anna C]

May I just draw everyone’s attention to this part of our Acceptable Use Policy that refers to discussion of schools:

 

“1.  Posts about schools or courses should report personal experiences only (posted by the student, members of a student’s family, or the student’s teacher with permission). ”

 

Many thanks,

 

Anna C

on behalf of Balletcoforum Moderators

[Whiteduvet]

Aware that this post may get deleted, I agree with Notadancema’s views: I have heard similar. 

 

My personal experience is that at WL  academics are always secondary to vocational, whereas Tring treats both equally. We found this very important when looking at vocational schools, considering the realistic likelihood of success in dance.

[Lifeafterballet]

I think it all depends really on what is most important to you and your child. Academics, ballet training etc ? As has been said before what suits one child and family is wrong for another. There are lots of sacrifices in this business 😒

Nothing is perfect. But my experience is that if your child is motivated and hard working they will achieve wherever they are. Many of my children's friends dropped out of A levels, either opting to do just the one or none at all. Juggling two and vocational training is tough and the school was poor at supporting them and their choice to stop. It was down to us parents to stress the importance of completing them. And boy is my daughter grateful we did that 👩‍🎓 

[Pups_mum]

I think @Kate_N is absolutely right. It's extremely difficult to say that anywhere is "best" because different children respond so differently. It's quite possible for one child to be thriving in the same class where another is struggling.

I think you are wise to look at this aspect carefully though OP as it does often seem to be a secondary consideration and given the probability of a successful performing  career is so small, it makes a lot of sense to do whatever you can to ensure that your DC gets at least a decent set of GCSEs.

I've no personal experience of any of the schools under discussion, but just as a general point, I would look at the breadth of the curriculum as well as the results. Obviously it is hard to predict the future and lots of students change schools between GCSE and A level anyway, but if, for instance, your DC's plan B would be sciences you might be less keen on a school that doesn't offer science A levels. 

As Moorland is primarily a regular academic school with additional ballet and sport programmes I would assume there would be quite a wide range of subjects available at all levels, but I don't think that's the same everywhere, especially for A level so its worth checking.

[Coffeemum]

I have to say that where your child is happy, they'll thrive accross the board. I have experience of two of the schools being talked about here and how my dds are doing/did academically relates to their overall experience. There are always going to be teachers in every school who inspire some and not others. 

Two general points though; I don't find the academics at WL to be secondary to ballet, and yes, one of the maths teachers at Elmhurst is the bees knees... actually saved my daughter from a total breakdown and is still tutoring her through A level. Complete gem.