Swan Lake - various productions that you have seen?

[Lizbie1]

4 hours ago, assoluta said:

@Lizbie1

I know of at least four legendary Soviet ballerinas who substituted, usually piqué manège, in place of 32 fouettés because they were so uncertain of their ability to perform the latter. Two of them are still alive. I wouldn't mention by name any single one of them, but you brought up Plisetskaya, incorrectly believing she did not perform the prescribed fouettés in Swan Lake for some unclear "artistic reasons". This why I thought I better correct it now, before such a view spreads throughout the waves of the internet, with all the consequences. The only reason why all those brilliant ballerinas didn't perform the fouettés was always their inability to do them without a serious risk of "ending up in the wings", "falling into the orchestra pit", or some other disaster (incidentally, I am almost quoting one of those celebrated dancers). I know this as a fact. I verified its veracity with the people who are authorities on the history of Soviet ballet, who knew personally, sometimes closely, those dancers. Plisetskaya herself writes about it in her book, saying, in particular, that before the ballerina arrives at the fouettés in the coda of the Black Pas de Deux, she is already exhausted, and Plisetskaya, admitting she never had learned the proper technique, decided to substitute piqué manège to relieve herself from the fear of failure. She made her decision very early, likely before 1950, soon after her debut. Concerning your video "proof", be aware that film served propagandist goals to demonstrate how the "People's Artists" toil for the Working Classes of the "Happy and Friendly Family of Nations of the Soviet Union". In those Soviet films practically everything was staged: what looks like a live performance was usually shot without any audience, the audience shots and the applause were recorded separately. You can make any number of takes, you are filming scene by scene, and only some scenes, not the whole show, etc, etc. Maximova, who was a perfectionist, once held the crew for 9 hours before she finally was happy with just a single number. Those artists really wanted to look best when recorded, they knew that this is how they will be judged by the future generations.

 

I imagine that there are very few Odiles out there who have never feared falling out of those fouettés: I never claimed that Plisetskaya preferred not do do them "artistic reasons" - my point was rather that she amply demonstrated that she could do them if required, therefore her preference not to (for whatever reason) has a different cast to when this decision is made by those dancers who are more likely to fail than succeed.

[assoluta]

Every single artist who at a major company is ever given "Swan Lake", passes the "exam" of fouettés in the rehearsal room. So, yes, every one of them can, with some luck, on a good day, do them well enough. I saw many times ambitious corps de ballet girls working on the fouettés with the pedagogues shouting at them (everything is taking place so fast that even normally very nice and able to restrain oneself people become explosive). The Odette/Odile part is one of the most daunting roles a ballerina can think about. Very few ever are given to perform it on stage complete. Whether Plissetskaya herself "amply" demonstrated that she can do the fouettés, I am not aware of "ample" evidence, her early decision to substitute the fouettés in "Swan Lake" was certainly not an easy one for her. If she happened not to be so successful as an artist later, we would likely never hear from her that admission 50 years later.

[assoluta]

30 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

I imagine that there are very few Odiles out there who have never feared falling out of those fouettés:

 

Actually, there were and there are ballerinas who whip fouettés at their will, up to 64. I think that they really enjoy being able to do that, with little stress, YouTube allowed us to see that their numbers are not so small. Some of them may struggle with nearly every other element of the ballerina technique, but this is a separate story. When you learn the proper technique, the rest is just a matter of exercise, unlike some other things that are infinitely harder to learn: if you want to do 32 fouettés with flying colours, in the class you do 64. There is a catch though: such exercises pose a serious threat to dancer's feet. Due to anatomic differences, some are a lot more vulnerable than others. For a ballerina, foot problems are very serious and chronic foot problems are a calamity. Several of internationally acclaimed and still active dancers experienced such problems. You know them.

[Orlandau]

I have found it very interesting to read about Swan Lake and the appearance or non appearance of the 32 fouettés. Way back in the 1980s when I first became interested in ballet I read about Swan Lake and the  fouettés, wanting to see this exciting phenomena for myself I duly booked tickets to see a performance by Sadler's Wells Royal Ballet. How disappointed I was when Act III came along and Galina Samsova substituted something else in their stead. I still haven't recovered!

[Fonty]

11 hours ago, MAB said:

For the record I've seen Fonteyn perform 32 and on one occasion 40, carrying on after the music stopped. 

 

Very unusual for her to carry on, surely?  Somehow, the idea of Fonteyn showing off like that doesn't seem to fit with her restrained image!  

[James]

This is how George Balanchine described the 32 fouettes in his "Festival of Ballet":

 

"These relentless, whipping turns, sum up her [Odile's] power over the prince and, with disdainful joy, seem to lash at his passion."

 

I have always felt that putting in doubles or triples detracts from the lascerating effect Balanchine describes, though I have noticed that some Odiles mix it up a bit in the first 16 bars, then revert to single fouettes when the music changes for the second set of 16 bars.

 

Orlandau mentioned Galina Samsova in what is now the BRB's Swan Lake. I remember reading at the time that Samsova was nursing an injury but nevertheless performed in the premiere, substituting, I think, pique maneges for the fouettes. One of the critics remarked that the steps she did perform may well have been more difficult than fouettes.

[Two Pigeons]

Galina Samsova was once blinded by a camera flash while turning and she fell off point and - I think - broke her ankle.   There is no way she couldn't do all 32 fouettes under normal circumstances.  I saw her do them in both Swan Lake and Paquita over the years and she was one of my yardsticks of ballerinadom. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Two Pigeons
Spellchecker

[Sophoife]

3 hours ago, Orlandau said:

How disappointed I was when Act III came along and Galina Samsova substituted something else in their stead. I still haven't recovered!

 

I had a similar experience the first time I saw Le Spectre de la Rose! I had read of the "marvellous leap through the window" and I got a step up onto the windowsill and a low jump off it. Talk about underwhelming! 

[Fonty]

 

On the subject of the fouettes, and how they originally came to be included.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyXq4ChEmc8

 

Towards the end, when Nunez has her turns counted,  while she is obviously a very accomplished turner, watching this brings to mind something I have thought before.  I agree with Balenchine's comment that the endless whipping leg being shown to Sigfried "seems to lash at his  passion."   But by mixing the fouettes with something else, it detracts from that, however many pirouettes the dancer throws in.  And again, not so much in the case of Nunez, but with other dancers, the apparent need to show how clever you are at turning means the dancer gets out of sync with the music.  

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Fonty

[alison]

21 hours ago, MAB said:

For the record I've seen Fonteyn perform 32 and on one occasion 40, carrying on after the music stopped. 

 

Ooh dear!  Did anyone criticise her for doing that?

[MAB]

12 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

Very unusual for her to carry on, surely?  Somehow, the idea of Fonteyn showing off like that doesn't seem to fit with her restrained image!  

 

If I remember correctly it was in 1966, for some reason the conductor was indisposed and she was lumbered with the dreaded Emanuel  Young, his tempi was so erratic she come seriously to grief.  Two nights later I think she felt she had something to prove and whizzed through the 32 carrying on after the music stopped.  I doubt she repeated that.

 

The most fouettes I've seen personally were performed in rehearsal at Jay Mews by Elena Pankova who did 96.  I admit I lost count, but the former Kirov ballerina sitting next to me hadn't and confirmed it was a triple 32.  Pankova was rehearsing Black Swan for a gala in honour of Alicia Markova and Jack Lanchbery asked her how fast she wanted the fouettes, "very fast" she replied.  Lanchbery mischievously commented he could go very fast indeed, she gave a curt nod of approval and that night between them they gave the fastest fouettes I've ever seen.

 

My personal preference by the way is for 32 singles on the spot.

[LinMM]

Something Douglas Allen said in an earlier post when talking about Sibley executing chaine turns " they were staggering because of their speed" resonated with me because I think SPEED is of the essence when performing any sort of turning step as long as not compromising on style. Sometimes really FAST single fouetté turns are more striking than putting in doubles or trebles etc.....especially if the music has been slowed down to accommodate this. 

In terms of execution and effect on the body ....singles are more of a stress on the supporting leg ( or foot) as its the continual pulling up onto pointe from the Demi plié which can stress the foot and of course some dancers have naturally stronger feet than others. 

Although you can get into a nice rhythm with the fouetté turn when executed correctly I wouldn't recommend many dancers practising doing huge numbers of them regularly unless they want to shorten their careers!! 

 

Personally I'm not that bothered whether I see them or not .....sometimes they can look quite ugly...and other turning combinations can be more exciting .....although recognise that in Swan Lake in particular there may be an artistic/choreographic need for them....though who cares how many fouettés a dancer can do if they haven't been the convincing temptress in the Odile role up to that point!! 

 

Apologies for being tempted to join this discussion on fouettés to be or not to be.... as the original poster was asking for discussion on Swan Lake productions people have seen but I can never remember the names of them .....who did the costumes who did the sets etc but I do tend to prefer more traditional versions myself ...a  Gothic setting and tutus for the swans ....though love Matthew Bournes including the costumes! 

The version I would most like to see right now though is Ratmansky's .....probably more even than the new production coming up for the RB. 

 

 

[Jan McNulty]

23 hours ago, assoluta said:

 

The 32 fouettés form a part of the prescribed choreographic text, so, in fact, any alteration, simplification, by a performing artist, is always an admission of weakness. 

 

I was under the impression that they were not part of the original choreographic text but were introduced by Legnani as they were her party piece.

[CHazell2]

3 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I was under the impression that they were not part of the original choreographic text but were introduced by Legnani as they were her party piece.

Maybe Legnani did the fouettes as her contribution to the choreography

[trog]

12 hours ago, alison said:

 

Ooh dear!  Did anyone criticise her for doing that?

 

Fonteyn's fouettes were described as "a cooks tour" (meaning they were all over the place) by the press of the day.

[trog]

23 hours ago, assoluta said:

 

Actually, there were and there are ballerinas who whip fouettés at their will, up to 64.

 

Suzanne Farrell said in her autobiography when she was 14, she was able to do 114. Old editions of The Guinness Book of World Records said that Rowena Jackson had done 121 and that she stopped because she "got bored". One dancer that I spoke to told me that there was no secret to 32 fouettes, just get on with it. I never saw her miss them in Swan Lake or Don Q.

[assoluta]

24 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I was under the impression that they were not part of the original choreographic text but were introduced by Legnani as they were her party piece.

 

If we are talking about the Ivanov-Petipa "Swan Lake", then they were. That version was produced for Pierina Legnani and by that time her 32 fouettés were already part of her ballerina craft. It was a normal practice then, as by the way was also a practice throughout much of the 20th Century, that a choreographer making a new ballet for a specific ballerina, tried to showcase her. This provides an answer to questions like "why there are only 21 fouettés here, and not 32?" The answer is: "because the (famous) ballerina for whom this particular ballet was made couldn't do more".

 

It may be worth to remember that Legnani was not the first ballerina to do the fouettés, although she probably was the first one to do 32, in public. Emma Bessone, the second of Marius Petipa's Giselles, already was doing them earlier. Legnani was very short, with her anatomy and her legs, it was much easier to perform such tricks than for modern tall and slender ballerinas with elongated feet and X-curved legs. However, her pointe shoes were also much more pointed than many of the shoes worn today (just compare beautifully stylish, pointed shoes of, for example, Alicia Markova, with the ugly sabot-like modern shoes of some of the dancers we see today).

 

Those feats of Bessone and Legnani had been made possible by the evolution in the construction of the pointe shoe that took place around 1880, when the bloc reinforcement was introduced. This, in turn, accelerated changes in the ballerina technique, making acrobatic tours de force that were earlier reserved to a few Italian wizzard-ballerinas, accessible to a much wider group of dancers. Ivor Guest expressed, and not once, grave reservations about how beneficial were those changes, believing them to contribute to the demise of a classically refined ballerina, and I have a great sympathy for his views. The active choreographers were, in turn, under pressure to incorporate those changes into their ballets and this is why we have them.

[MAB]

25 minutes ago, trog said:

 

Fonteyn's fouettes were described as "a cooks tour" (meaning they were all over the place) by the press of the day.

 

Exact source please.

[assoluta]

Fonteyn's own memoirs is perhaps the source. Alastair Macaulay quotes Fonteyn (in an article discussing Copeland's inability to do more than 16 fouettés), as follows:

 

Margot Fonteyn (...) laughs in her memoirs about how an American critic described her wandering path during them as her “Cook’s tours of the stage.”

 

(I don't have her memoirs around to check the exact quote.)

[assoluta]

54 minutes ago, trog said:

 

Suzanne Farrell said in her autobiography when she was 14, she was able to do 114.

 

That looks very suspect to me. Having had a lot of experience with ballet students of that age, it would be a criminal negligence for any pedagogue to allow attempting even the half of that number. It could easily end up in a career threatening foot stress fracture.

[assoluta]

4 hours ago, LinMM said:

Something Douglas Allen said in an earlier post when talking about Sibley executing chaine turns " they were staggering because of their speed" resonated with me because I think SPEED is of the essence when performing any sort of turning step as long as not compromising on style.

 

Speed in not considered the "essence" of turning steps. Slow rotation is MUCH harder and, if done properly, is much more alluring to the eye. It is also much more musical. There are very fast dancers who, without naming them, struggle with slow rotation to the point of simplifying the text in certain variations like, the Scarf Variation in the Kingdom of Shades, where they simply cannot force the fast tempi.

[LinMM]

well doesn't it depend on the type of turn.....so slightly disagree with the musicality comment in your post.

In the scarf variation in Kingdom of Shades isn't that a turn in attitude and therefore meant to show off the beauty of that particular turn....I may have the exact bit you are referring to wrong but .....if it's the bit I'm thinking of its completely different to a fouetté turn.

If I see someone doing Pique turns or chainees I don't want to see slow ones!! But preferably in time with the music which hasn't been deliberately slowed ( this can be a little slowed down or a lot in some cases).

 

When you are learning to turn as in pirouettes you have to master a slower single turn before attempting doubles etc  because in pirouettes you don't want the turns "fudged" as such .....they must be perfectly on balance and rotated evenly ....so you can see each turn beautifully controlled ......with the really advanced turner being able to stop when THEY  choose ....not because the pirouette has got the better of them and thrown THEM off balance or off Demi ( or pointe). 

I prefer fouettés executed fairly fast ( or why bother) .but only if the whipping leg can maintain its correct position each time .....or it becomes ugly looking.....but as I said am not a great fan of the step myself and would hate a really great dancer to be banned from performing Swan Lake because they could for example only reliably do 20 .....instead of 32 fouettés!! 

 

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, assoluta said:

 

If we are talking about the Ivanov-Petipa "Swan Lake", then they were. 

 

Thanks Assoluta.  Great post!

[LinMM]

Yes I meant to say the that the post Janet is referring to is really interesting.

I was interested in the fact that you said Legnani was small because I do think body types do come into this to a degree though there will always be exceptions to any general rule. 

I believe Ulyana Lopatkina  is considered one of the greats when interpreting and performing Swan Lake ....though now sadly retired...did she have a problem with the fouettés as I think she was taller though whether more than 5ft 7ins I don't know but I'm sure it is harder for taller dancers to pull off these 32 fouettés generally speaking especially if  5ft 8 ins or more. But am not absolutely sure .....some people  just seem to be better turners for whatever reasons ....perhaps because they are attracted to this aspect.

[assoluta]

55 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I believe Ulyana Lopatkina  is considered one of the greats when interpreting and performing Swan Lake ....though now sadly retired...did she have a problem with the fouettés as I think she was taller though whether more than 5ft 7ins I don't know but I'm sure it is harder for taller dancers to pull off these 32 fouettés generally speaking especially if  5ft 8 ins or more.

 

Lopatkina was a very astute dancer who knew how to minimize one's weaknesses. Her approach to the dreaded 32 fouettés was "do them in the safest possible way". The price for that was, her fouettés looked more like putting a "check" next to the obligatory "32 fouettés" box, rather than a thrilling culmination of a long ascent through the Black Swan pas de deux.

[RHowarth]

5 hours ago, assoluta said:

 

That looks very suspect to me. Having had a lot of experience with ballet students of that age, it would be a criminal negligence for any pedagogue to allow attempting even the half of that number. It could easily end up in a career threatening foot stress fracture.

It’s been many years since I read Holding on to the Air but from memory, I’m not sure Farrell was talking about doing them en pointe?

[betterankles]

I have known many dancers, ex students of a famous teacher in Australia, who were taught fouettees from a very early age, and made to do them daily - at least 64.   I think from the age of about 12...

Result:  they never feared fouettees... and haven't heard of any injuries because of them.

At the Legat School when in Tunbridge Wells, Madame Legat also had her students do fouettees from a very early age, 9, 10 years old - and again result, no fear!

Of course only students with strong legs - 'horses for courses', not 'particular age for courses'