amos73 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Physio also said if someone had true hyper mobility syndrome that would be a major problem too and would make them unsuitable for vocational training as it is a medical condition with many attendant issues. Did that 9 point test on my DD and she had 5 out of 9, (not fingers or knees though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I think someone said it upthread, but it's worth repeating: hyperextension of joints is different to hypermobility syndrome/s. Or indeed, a phrase my physio used for me "hyperflexible" - but that was in a 'civilian' sense, not a dancer's. Hypermobility syndromes (such as Ehling-Dahlos) are quite different from flexibility & hyperextension. And often - as far as I have seen with a couple of colleagues - dance training can be quite bad for hypermobility long term, if the hypermobility hasn't been recognised or diagnosed. I have a colleague who will need to have a series of joint replacements because of intensive training on top of an undiagnosed hypermobility syndrome. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Yes, Kate_N, there is a big difference between joints which happen to have a larger range of movement than normal, and where the tendons and ligaments around the joints are too flexible and aren't firm enough to hold everything in position properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 This is all sooo confusing! Surely if you're hypermobile you will hyperextend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) I'm not sure about that, Piccolo, but hyperextension and hypermobility are not the same thing. Hyperextension maybe a result of hypermobility, but it is not the same thing. (Think of a Venn diagram). And I imagine that hypermobility does not always or necessarily lead to hyperextension in balletic terms -- although a medico or physio would know more about that, I think. DrDance may have the medical knowledge about this. Edited February 6, 2016 by Kate_N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Actually, thinking about my colleague with hypermobility - as far as I can see, they don't have hyperextended knees. But their dance training is not ballet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Ah, sort of getting it now... Maybe hypermobility and hyperflexibility leads to hyperextension. The plot thickens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 My dd has hyperextended ankles, but not hyperlaxity so she doesn't have a tendency to go over sideways at all. What she does have though is a high arch and ankle joints that naturally straighten beyond 180 degrees when pointed. All these 'hypers' are getting confusing now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) What is hyper laxity taxisforballet? My dd is forever going over on her ankle and spraining them. She is a very active sporty child and quite competitive when attempting to do sports and join in stuff in the playground she probably isnt built for. She is always injuring herself she has a badly sprained ankle at the moment after attempting basketball with boys at school I hope she's finally learnt her lesson this time. Is hyper laxity extra flexible ligaments kind of thing and hyper mobility simply having joints have more range of motion than usual? I am wondering if a wobble board may help. Edited February 6, 2016 by Snowflake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 But - again, as far as I understand it - hypermobility and hyperflexibility are not the same. Hypermoblity is a physiological syndrome, and there are various specific forms. The one I know about it Ehling-Dahlos (EDS). It's often a deficit or genetic thing to do with connective tissues and cartilage etc. I think - but a medico would know - that "hyperflexibility" is simply a term to name "extremely flexible." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 NHS website: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Joint-hypermobility/pages/introduction.aspx http://www.thehypermobilityunit.org.uk/index.php/what-is-a-hypermobility-syndrome And I've got the name wrong -- it's Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome http://www.ehlers-danlos.org/about-eds/types-of-eds/hypermobility-ehlers-danlos-syndrome/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Oh my goodness that sounds really serious Kate N. I've never heard of that syndrome before. What an awful thing For a child to suffer with and be brave enough to still dance. Thankfully my dd only has the general common type. I am not sure is hyper flexible tbh as she's quite muscular too, just her joints can make funny broken shapes when she locks them out completely X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) What is hyper laxity taxisforballet? My dd is forever going over on her ankle and spraining them. She is a very active sporty child and quite competitive when attempting to do sports and join in stuff in the playground she probably isnt built for. She is always injuring herself she has a badly sprained ankle at the moment after attempting basketball with boys at school I hope she's finally learnt her lesson this time. Is hyper laxity extra flexible ligaments kind of thing and hyper mobility simply having joints have more range of motion than usual? I am wondering if a wobble board may help. As I understand it (and I am in no way an expert in these things) hyperlaxity is where the ligaments/tendons are too soft and stretchy and don't hold the joint together properly. Ligaments are what join the two ends of the bones together, and tendons are what attach the muscles to the bones. It is all to do with how much collagen a person naturally produces in their body. They often have loose, stretchy skin as well - like cats do. Edited to add - Perhaps your dd's teacher might be the best person to ask about ankle strengthening exercises? Edited February 6, 2016 by taxi4ballet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Oh thank you so much taxisforballet, I had only ever heard of hyper mobility before, not hyperextention or hyper laxitity or hyperflexibilty. it makes quite interesting reading. Dd has been advised to get a wobble board ages ago, just never got round to it, could imagine it just after a couple of uses being not used again, didn't know if they really are that beneficial x Edited February 6, 2016 by Snowflake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowiththeflo Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Not ballet related at all, but a schoolfriend of mine had Ehlers -Danlos. She would regularly dislocate her shoulders(not on purpose!) , had swayback everything, and she could do this thing with her fingers whereby each fingertip could touch the back of her hand , kind of like making a claw/fist, but backwards..???? She coped with it all incredibly well, and taught us all how to hold her arm & position ourselves so she could 'pop' her shoulder back in whenever necessary!!! ???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 As with most conditions, there are different degrees of Joint Hypermobility Syndrome - now sometimes called Ehlers Danlos Hypermobility type. There are also different "strains" of E-D; some life threatening, some disabling, others not so. The Hypermobility type is a strange combination of factors and again, sufferers have the condition to varying degrees. Most interestingly, someone with Hypermobility type ED or Joint Hypermobility Syndrome can have some joints that aren't hypermobile or that are hypermobile in one direction but not the other - for example ankles that are overly lax from side to side, leading to sprains and over/under-pronating, but don't have excessive range for pointing. It's a puzzling condition but given how many professional dancers have hypermobility or hypermobile joints, it doesn't have to be a disadvantage as long as the student gets to know her body, and the teacher has experience of teaching the hypermobile student safely. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Dd has been advised to get a wobble board ages ago, just never got round to it, could imagine it just after a couple of uses being not used again, didn't know if they really are that beneficial x Was this on the advice of her teacher? I don't know anything about wobble boards, sorry. It might be worthwhile for your dd to see a specialist dance physiotherapist, as they will know which specific exercises will be beneficial for your dd's particular physique, and which exercises/stretching etc she should avoid. Does she do tap? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Thanks taxiforballet it was a dance specialist physio she saw for a bout of Achilles tendinitis after a growth spurt last year. She couldn't recommend them highly enough to help strengthen ankles again after injury or just in general as a conditioning tool, but dd injury cleared up before we got round to ordering one. She's a keen tapper. Sorry everyone for the thread totally taking off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Dd has a wobble board on the advice of her school physio. It's to help with proprioception 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I've quizzed dd and she still remember the exercises she was given, so we may belatedly invest in one. Apologises again for being totally off thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I think it's a case that someone with whole-body hypermobility or JHS would have hyperextended joints but that someone with hyperextended joints wouldn't necessarily have a hypermobility syndrome. Hypermobility syndromes, as stated above, can have all sorts of other symptoms or complications while someone with hyperextended joints won't have these. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lema Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Snowflake my dd is currently under a physio and she was told that if you don't have a balance board just stand one legged on a pillow/cushion for one minute in each leg, sounds easy enough but the uneveness and softness of the pillow is enough to make your muscles have to work hard to keep you upright and balanced, my dd has a balance board but she suggested getting really good on a pillow first and then move into the balance board. Just a suggestion before you spend out on a board, at least she can start straight away with a pillow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 My physio told me that this is about all the tiny adjustments that muscles need to make. One of my teachers has us stand on one leg with our eyes closed. You should be able to do it for 15 seconds minimum. Try it! It's amazing how difficult that is, whereas I can stand on one leg with my eyes open forever! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primrose Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 I have spoken to my daughter this evening and it seems I have made a mistake in saying she was told to maintain a gap between her heels. Infact Royal and Bolshoi told her to keep her heels together, her other voc school told her to have a gap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lema Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 My physio told me that this is about all the tiny adjustments that muscles need to make. One of my teachers has us stand on one leg with our eyes closed. You should be able to do it for 15 seconds minimum. Try it! It's amazing how difficult that is, whereas I can stand on one leg with my eyes open forever! Kate_N you are absolutely right and I should have said that once your confident on one leg you should then go on to do it with your eyes shut, again starting off on the floor and then moving onto the pillow once your well established 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 They would be able to see from the picture of the student standing side on feet in parallel. Wouldn't that only show badly managed swaybacks? If you're standing in parallel surely you should have hips, knees, ankles lined up, swaybacks or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amos73 Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Swaybacks are visible when you stand side on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Not if you're standing properly. If you lock your knees back, yes, but you shouldn't be doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amos73 Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Yes, true, if properly managed hopefully it wouldn't show as much. But I do think some schools are looking for swaybacks for aesthetic reasons! And therefore want to see that line in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TabbyCool Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Gosh, I can't see you, and I'm not your teacher, but you should never "lock" your knees if you're hyperextended. You have to learn quite a different way of working if you have hyperextended joints. They may give a nice line IF ( a big if) the dancer knows how to work with them, but there are general issues of strength and control with hyperextended knees. Definitely NOT a requirement! I've spent my whole life locking my knees when standing, it's taking some undoing! I only started ballet when I was 29 (I'm now 33) and didn't even realise I had hyperextended knees until August last year after switching to a different teacher! I always just thought my calves were too bulky and that was why my heels couldn't get closer together! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baby steps Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 What on earth are swayback legs.? Certainly not what I'm visualizing I'm sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaybackSapphire Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Although aesthetically pleasing to look at, my DD has swaybacks, but with it comes enormous problems too! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 What on earth are swayback legs.? Certainly not what I'm visualizing I'm sure! It is when your knees straighten further than the normal vertical, so from the side it looks like the knees are bent backwards. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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