Joining a grade 5/6 kids class as an adult? Would I be allowed to do this?

[Sim]

As part of my company's CSR, we used to volunteer to help reading at an inner-city primary school once a week here in London.  The kids were almost all non-English speakers, and this programme used to help them a lot.  Although we volunteers were always in a big classroom with all the involved children, and at least one teacher (so we were never alone with any child) we still had to have criminal record checks.  One year the kids missed a whole term of reading because the checks took so long.  Such a sad indictment of our current world that you have to go through all this just to sit in a full classroom to read with the kids. 

[Sim]

Furthermore.....mph.... "you are talking rubbish" is not an acceptable way to address another forum member.  If you believe someone has stated an incorrect fact, "this is wrong, here is why" would do nicely.

[Fiz]

Please don't go, Jane!

[sarahw]

It is disappointing that such an aggressive conversation has developed. I hope no - one leaves over it but maybe the thread should be closed?

[Huddsballetmum]

It is disappointing that such an aggressive conversation has developed. I hope no - one leaves over it but maybe the thread should be closed?

I agree completely.  We have often had differences of opinion but the tone of this thread is very concerning and I think it should be closed too.   

[Pups_mum]

I hope the original poster hasn't been put off seeking advice here. Hopefully having lurked for some time she will know that the vast majority of members are friendly, down to earth types who can generally agree to disagree respectfully if differences of opinion occur. Donastcolombe - I hope you find a class that meets your needs, and please do come back and join in with some more threads. This is by far the friendliest forum that I post on and this kind of disagreement is very rare - please don't be put off.

[trog]

Whether or not you can attend would be down to the teacher, probably. You might have to plead your case - it's very difficult to find adult syllabus classes and this might be your bargaining chip.

 

I used to do a grade 6 class with a group of 13/14 year old girls. They were naturally wary at first, but they quickly realised that I was only there to dance. At the time, I knew the grade 6 syllabus extremely well. The girls used to like me to stand at the back at the barre, so they had somebody to copy when we turned around. They also used to like to follow me across the floor for the same reason. I used to like the silly running about with the cloth (more correctly known as free movement). I often wonder how many chaps have done it?

 

I do miss doing syllabus classes. I found the set structure very useful - I could concentrate on one or two things until I could do them as best as my limited abilities would allow and then move on to the next step. I've never done the exams (never wanted too) but I would like to do more syllabus work. I preferred BBO to RAD (did BBO 3-8 and RAD 1-6, as well as some Cecchetti and IDTA).

Edited January 16, 2017 by trog
added a bit more

[LinMM]

Omg Jane please don't leave over the remarks of mph

I was beginning to find that poster quite aggressive in fact.

 

There are rules around safeguarding .....as a retired teacher I do have active experience of them ......but even with them in place it doesn't mean children are always COMPLETELY safe.

 

Life is a risk!!

 

It is usually around the age of 12 that parents are happy to start letting their kids go " into town" on their own or go swimming on their own or travel to school on their own ( often on the tube)

You could get completely paranoid about what can happen but you have to let go at some point.

Is this going to be 12, 14, 16, 18??

 

In a ballet class situation it is the teacher of the class who has responsibility for the younger people in the class but ironically enough I'm sure in my case (even though it didn't happen) if the teacher had been called out for any reason she may well have called on me to keep an eye.....as a known responsible adult!!

My police check has expired now but I'm sure this would still stand today.....the teacher is not a fool and knows I am a trustworthy adult.

 

I understand where you are coming from mph but you cannot check every adult who is out and about in town for instance but where adults have more FORMAL duties regarding children then obviously should be checked.

[Harwel]

What a very unnecessary turn of events on this thread! What a shame some people can't be civil to others, there are lots of valid points made and no one should be made to feel their view/personal experience is 'rubbish'.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Harwel

[LinMM]

To get back to original posters request my feeling is she will not need a police check to attend this ballet class as the teacher taking the class should have this in place. As she may not know the OP she could ask her to have a check to be on the safe side but am pretty sure thus won't be required by law. Or the teacher may just use her own assessment and knowledge to judge whether OP is "safe" to join her class.

But it is her responsibility to make sure all the students in her class are safe ( and not just from abuse) including us naughty adults at the back.

[RuthE]

If I may contribute something which may be relevant - one of my regular freelance singing jobs is with a boys' boarding-school chapel choir.  They hire women in order to sing the upper parts in choral music with boys whose voices have broken.

 

Although we are effectively staff members, we are in no position of authority over the boys and are employed solely as performers.  While there may be times when we come into casual contact with one or more of the boys without a teacher present - queuing for the water cooler in the corridor, for example - we have separate toilet and changing facilities, and no access to the boys' dedicated areas.

 

We are *not* deemed to be required to be DBS checked.

 

I would have thought something similar would apply.

Edited January 16, 2017 by RuthE

[Nicola H]

Glossary: Substantial Unsupervised Access (to children)

Where an adult has regular or prolonged contact with children, or access to children’s accommodation which provides opportunity for such contact, without another adult responsible for the welfare and supervision of the children being present.

No they don't as there is a qualified teacher present

I do not think you understand the definition  and how it is applied in practice. 

 

as  has been pointed out  by others  it is not as simple  as  there is a teacher present. 

 

 

[Nicola H]

As part of my company's CSR, we used to volunteer to help reading at an inner-city primary school once a week here in London.  The kids were almost all non-English speakers, and this programme used to help them a lot.  Although we volunteers were always in a big classroom with all the involved children, and at least one teacher (so we were never alone with any child) we still had to have criminal record checks.  One year the kids missed a whole term of reading because the checks took so long.  Such a sad indictment of our current world that you have to go through all this just to sit in a full classroom to read with the kids. 

A sentiment  along the ' it is all fun and games until someone loses an eye'  school of thought. 

 

a lot of people seem to have focused on the ' there  will be a teacher present'  ...   which is correct  most of the time  but not all the time . 

[Nicola H]

If I may contribute something which may be relevant - one of my regular freelance singing jobs is with a boys' boarding-school chapel choir.  They hire women in order to sing the upper parts in choral music with boys whose voices have broken.

 

Although we are effectively staff members, we are in no position of authority over the boys and are employed solely as performers.  While there may be times when we come into casual contact with one or more of the boys without a teacher present - queuing for the water cooler in the corridor, for example - we have separate toilet and changing facilities, and no access to the boys' dedicated areas.

 

We are *not* deemed to be required to be DBS checked.

 

I would have thought something similar would apply.

and this occurs with what frequency ? 

 

weekly ?  monthly ?  a couple of times a year ? 

 

Again, looking at the rules  as used by the various youth organisations and  supported by the NSPCC and  various  statutory bodies ,  there is a difference between a one off or infrequent  adult visitor  and   adults who regularly and routinely take part in the activities in question even if they do not hold a  position of  trust 

[Nicola H]

Omg Jane please don't leave over the remarks of mph

I was beginning to find that poster quite aggressive in fact.

 

There are rules around safeguarding .....as a retired teacher I do have active experience of them ......but even with them in place it doesn't mean children are always COMPLETELY safe.

 

Life is a risk!!

 

It is usually around the age of 12 that parents are happy to start letting their kids go " into town" on their own or go swimming on their own or travel to school on their own ( often on the tube)

You could get completely paranoid about what can happen but you have to let go at some point.

Is this going to be 12, 14, 16, 18??

 

In a ballet class situation it is the teacher of the class who has responsibility for the younger people in the class but ironically enough I'm sure in my case (even though it didn't happen) if the teacher had been called out for any reason she may well have called on me to keep an eye.....as a known responsible adult!!

My police check has expired now but I'm sure this would still stand today.....the teacher is not a fool and knows I am a trustworthy adult.

 

I understand where you are coming from mph but you cannot check every adult who is out and about in town for instance but where adults have more FORMAL duties regarding children then obviously should be checked.

I made clear and unambiguous statements  of fact and policy as a person with very recent operational experience in safeguarding. 

 

Unfortunately  the adverse effects on an organisation of a safeguarding problem  can be huge  and i could see it easily killing a  school  even  not  issue was found.  Safeguarding  with regard to  children  taking part in sportign and creative activities is a current hot topic , with the  difficulties the FA are facing ,  this is just the latest in a long line of different organisations , Perhaps  closer to home  for  this board would be the  similar time period issues  at Cheetam's school of Music in Manchester, or the more recent  issues in Sydney ...  

 

The public spaces argument  is a complete strawman  when it comes to  mixing adults and children in an organised setting.   at which point is that line crossed  and i suspect that   adults  attending  syllabus classes  aimed at  YP   is on the  the 'due diligence needed' side of the line  especially if the class  is routinely taught by a single  teacher  (  for those lucky enough to  have an actual  real life pianist  it may be  different ) . Certainly the Operational policies of the  uniformed Youth Organisations   require that adults who regularly assist or participate in youth activities even if they are not a designated youth leader  are checked to the  higher standards /  have  higher standard checks extended to include  the child related ones  that youth leaders  would have ...  

 

There is a huge  amount of misunderstanding of  safeguarding and  how  the due diligence works,  I have found  that  ignorance is common even among those working in regulated  settings -  often becasue of poor briefing and training and they  see  Safeguarding  as  interference and  things like DBS checks or LA chaperone approveal as  pointless paperwork  to satisfy hand wringers 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by mph

[aileen]

I'm quite surprised that teenagers are still able to do work experience and voluntary work (eg as part of the DoE Award Scheme) and participate in language learning exchange schemes given the type of anxieties that this thread has raised. I actually feel that there are more serious questions to be asked about teachers such as dance and music teachers and tutors giving tuition to pupils without a second adult being present. At least in a dance class there are other pupils present, which is not the case with music teachers and tutors who work with pupils 1-1. DBS checks are only part of the picture. Working in a safe way, which minimises the risks to children as well as unfounded allegations against the adult, is also important.

[Moomin]

The interpretation of the law by youth organisations and by a ballet school will differ as the later is not age restricted- classes are generally not advertised as being only for a specific age range. And their own rules are just that, an interpretation, it is down to an individual teacher to risk assess and if something went wrong they would be accountable, just the same as any other profession. Personally I think the definition is quite clear, regular or prolonged contact without the teacher present. As many of us have said it is down to the individual professional dance teacher to interpret but I don't think many of us would call the occasional 2 minute loo break regular or prolonged. If the class was left regularly without a teacher that would be a risk in so many ways, the main being injury from lack of supervision. I've never known a teacher to do that

[Moomin]

The scandals you give as examples involve adults who were teaching/ assisting/ helping out/ facilitating. Those adults have a duty of care. As a fellow pupil you do not have that, it is a requirement that there is another qualified person who has the safeguarding duty and is responsible for supervising you so that you do not have the opportunity to do wrong. That is the crucial difference.

[Nicola H]

The scandals you give as examples involve adults who were teaching/ assisting/ helping out/ facilitating. Those adults have a duty of care. As a fellow pupil you do not have that, it is a requirement that there is another qualified person who has the safeguarding duty and is responsible for supervising you so that you do not have the opportunity to do wrong. That is the crucial difference. 

how do you propose to achieve this without a second  supervising adult present  ? 

 

are you sure there is not a duty of care ? 

 

As i have  explained  there are scenarios  where young people and adults are working  together  in delivering service   and the service recipients are a third party,  In these cases   both the YP and adults  will  recieve  training and be made aware of the SSoWs , as  many of these scenarios are  already  in regulated  areas of 'work' the adults  are usually checked  anyway ...  but these adults are specifically not in charge of the YP unless they are a designated supervisor of YP. 

 

It seems that some peopel have decided  i am opposed to the scenario  occuring.  They are very  wrong in this regard,  however as someone  with  very recent experience of safeguarding  I do think it;s not as easy as some would suggest. 

 

part of the issue  is the  frequency and intensity of  contact , at least weekly  if not more often ,  very difference to a once a term thing or a one off.  

 

 

[donastcolombe]

Would just like to say to start I didn't mean to cause a huge confrontation!  

 

Thank you those of you who offered advice with this.  This dance school does run a few adult dance classes alongside the usual syllabus classes for under 18s, so there are frequently adults and children in the same building.  They did tell me they would be happy for me to join the advanced class when I first enquired, so there is some indication there I guess that they would be willing to put me in the syllabus classes.  It's just whether they would be willing to put me in a lower level syllabus class.  Re the age of the students in grade 5, I'm not too sure, but the classes offered on the timetable go up to grade 5 and then to intermediate and advanced ballet, so based on that and some approximate ages they suggested for the lower grades on their site, I guessed the grade 5 class would be ages 13-15ish.  But I didn't do grades as a child, so that isn't based on any personal experience.  I'm 22 so in theory not that much older than them, it would most likely be a smaller age gap than me and the rest of the adult ballet class at this same studio.  I know obviously the crucial difference is that age gap being one between adults (although there are a couple of under 18s in the adult ballet class), but I wouldn't stand out as a great deal older.  I'll see what happens this term and maybe pluck up the courage to ask about next term.  

[Nicola H]

I'm quite surprised that teenagers are still able to do work experience and voluntary work (eg as part of the DoE Award Scheme) and participate in language learning exchange schemes given the type of anxieties that this thread has raised. I actually feel that there are more serious questions to be asked about teachers such as dance and music teachers and tutors giving tuition to pupils without a second adult being present. At least in a dance class there are other pupils present, which is not the case with music teachers and tutors who work with pupils 1-1. DBS checks are only part of the picture. Working in a safe way, which minimises the risks to children as well as unfounded allegations against the adult, is also important.

the classic 'work experience' setting doesn;t meet the  defintions of substantial unsupervised access  - as it's a  a week or two that occurs a couple of times  during  the education of  older children  (  often Y10 and  either  pre-Y12 or  during Y12) 

 

voluntary work  depends on the  nature of the work , the uniformed  youth organisations  where  DoE  participatns are taking part in young leaders development programmes etc  - all the leaders are checked  any way,  in care  settings  staff  / supervisors will be checked ,  ditto  many of the service delivery charities such as Red cross or St John ) 

 

1 to 1   does pose specific additional risks, which need to be considered ,  especially in coaching  type scenarios  - 

 

and DBS  checks are just a small part of  safeguarding but an area that seems to attract  rather a lot of attention,  primarily because people are under the impression that they can be  'failed'   by someone  who is not on the Barring lists.  Similar  lacks of understanding are applied to m Occ Health  and diversity monitoring process at times. 

[LinMM]

I do agree about the one to one situation.

 

When I was last working in schools a new rule came about .....must have been around 2009/10 that even if you had a current police check if you were working one to one with a pupil you could do this but both pupil and teacher had to face an OPEN door you were not allowed to close the door of the room if alone with a child.....no matter how many years been at the school etc etc.

 

Children having individual music lessons I suppose have to be more risk assessed by the parents .....how much they trust that teacher who may also have a current police check!!

 

 

It does all get a bit over the top though.

Once I was working with a current police check in place for EAST Sussex schools ( who have always been strong on safe guarding issues) for one job and wanted to do a couple of days supply. So I applied to an Agency and had to get another check for them in place but I couldn't work in East Sussex schools that I was already working in until the Agency check came through......which was taking 6-8 weeks at the time!!!

[Moomin]

I'm not sure why you would need a second supervisor. The scenario is not the same as your example as there is a recognised and qualified person directly supervising all parties. I'm sure if the activity didn't involve supervision the risk assessment would be different

[LinMM]

I would say to the OP that most grade fivers would be between 11 and 14 as a general loose rule.

[Moomin]

Would just like to say to start I didn't mean to cause a huge confrontation!

 

Good luck with it. I don't think they'll have any problems with you joining a class with teens. Worse scenario, they say no! You haven't lost anything. My only suggestion would be to try and have some idea of what came in grades 1-4 if you don't already know as the others will have that prior learning which make it a bit more difficult for you.

[Nicola H]

Would just like to say to start I didn't mean to cause a huge confrontation!  

 

Thank you those of you who offered advice with this.  This dance school does run a few adult dance classes alongside the usual syllabus classes for under 18s, so there are frequently adults and children in the same building.  They did tell me they would be happy for me to join the advanced class when I first enquired, so there is some indication there I guess that they would be willing to put me in the syllabus classes.  It's just whether they would be willing to put me in a lower level syllabus class.  Re the age of the students in grade 5, I'm not too sure, but the classes offered on the timetable go up to grade 5 and then to intermediate and advanced ballet, so based on that and some approximate ages they suggested for the lower grades on their site, I guessed the grade 5 class would be ages 13-15ish.  But I didn't do grades as a child, so that isn't based on any personal experience.  I'm 22 so in theory not that much older than them, it would most likely be a smaller age gap than me and the rest of the adult ballet class at this same studio.  I know obviously the crucial difference is that age gap being one between adults (although there are a couple of under 18s in the adult ballet class), but I wouldn't stand out as a great deal older.  I'll see what happens this term and maybe pluck up the courage to ask about next term.  

The take away message  is ' it will depend on the  school  , the principal and the  teacher of the class if s/he is not the principal ' . 

 

they have to be sure that their safeguarding  practice is robust enough  , not just to let you  into that class but to let any adult into that class. 

 

why do they have to do that  though ?  it's you asking now ...   

 

think about the Equality act and  all  the various  protected characteristics ... 

 

age,  sexuality,  gender expression  (  contrary to  the belief expressed by some  the whole transgender  spectrum is covered  not just binary trans people who are under the care of a gender identity clinic)  as well as  race and disability  ... 

 

you only need to look at the over reactions of the curtain twitchers to  swimming pools that have accepted private hire  bookings  from  naturist groups and/or various LGBT groups   ... 

 

 

[Nicola H]

I do agree about the one to one situation.

 

When I was last working in schools a new rule came about .....must have been around 2009/10 that even if you had a current police check if you were working one to one with a pupil you could do this but both pupil and teacher had to face an OPEN door you were not allowed to close the door of the room if alone with a child.....no matter how many years been at the school etc etc.

 

Children having individual music lessons I suppose have to be more risk assessed by the parents .....how much they trust that teacher who may also have a current police check!!

 

 

It does all get a bit over the top though.

Once I was working with a current police check in place for EAST Sussex schools ( who have always been strong on safe guarding issues) for one job and wanted to do a couple of days supply. So I applied to an Agency and had to get another check for them in place but I couldn't work in East Sussex schools that I was already working in until the Agency check came through......which was taking 6-8 weeks at the time!!!

 

the door thing sounds like local embellishment  - seen and heard similar local embellishments in  health, social care and voluntary sector 

 

presumably the checking stuff was pre 'portable'  DBS  -  under the old CRB  scheme only the requesting organisation got the  full  disclosure the  applicant 'copy'  wasn't necessarily a true  and accurate copy  - as  information on the 'other information at the  discretion of the Chief Officer'   box  could be suppressed on applicant copies if  there were  ongoing  investigations or  there was information which was being  developed to start an investigation .  With the change to DBS   if  it;s made portable  any  'employer'  can check an up to date status on any relevant 'worker'  ... ( usual caveats apply  about  they have to have  grounds to do that - usually  becasue you are going to be doing some work with / for them )

[Jan McNulty]

MPH you are obviously an expert on safe guarding procedures.

 

I would, however, be grateful if you could post in a less confrontational and more respectful way.

 

Despite the useful nature of this discussion I am now going to close it to prevent further unpleasantness.

 

Donastcolombe may I extend a belated welcome to the Forum.  Please let us know how you get on with your classes.  We've already got some adult ballet threads that you may find it useful to peruse.  Good luck!