Anna C Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 That's an interesting thought, Invisiblecircus, and I think my answer would be that an extended audition would benefit some students - but the logistics would be tricky. Just like linear O'Levels vs modular GCSEs, there will always be some students who perform best under pressure for a few hours, whereas others do better over a longer period. No perfect solution and you'll never please everyone! :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitschqueen_1 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) On the subject of it "all coming down to how the candidate performs on the day," what do people think about auditions that take place over a longer period of time? Some European and North American schools select candidates that way and I also went through that process to enter vocational school. I have to say that I absolutely dreaded the assessment period (which was 1 month long in my case) and found it extremely stressful while I loved one-day auditions but it does give the school a much better idea of the strengths and weaknesses of a student. They get to see the good days and the bad days and how the student responds to their training. Practically though, you wouldn't be able to apply to too many schools which employed this process of selection. This is the selection process that the school my dd is interested in uses. They hold 31 pre selection auditions (across Europe and beyond) that involve a day of classes in ballet, contemporary and creative. Then if successful the auditionees travel to Belgium for 6 days and are observed doing daily classes in ballet, contemporary, improv, theatre techniques and rep, interviews and a written exam! Exhausting yes but at least then they have the opportunity to observe those students on good days, bad days and everything in between! Also demonstrates how the potential students will manage the rigours of full time training. Edited to add that this is for students over the age of 18. Edited May 19, 2014 by Kitschqueen_1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BD19 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 I said she must be a very good dancer, Elmhurst is a very good school. WL isn't the be all and end all but what they are about is excellence and taking only the truly excellent or those they feel have an aptitude for excellence. Which is more than just physique. You asked why she got into very good schools but not the "excellent" one, you answered your question. Your daughter based on the info you gave is a very good dancer who has a strong chance of a career. However at WL which is about finding dancers with the potential to join one of the world's best companies, at this stage they didn't consider her to be at the level they look for. Who knows maybe after five years at Elmhurst she will be and will get into Upper School if that's what she wants? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dancer2027 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 I think that you always have to consider things in perspective, I can imagine it is so easy to get caught up in a rather elitist world, but girls getting places at top schools like elmhurst and wl are in the small minority. Many girls would dream of a place at elmhurst. Also ballet mum16 your dd must be very talented and she has a lot of time and growing to do, I would be looking forward to her years at elmhurst and seeing how she progresses; good luck to her 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) As others have said, excellence has a degree of subjectivity to it, especially in the context of children who are in the middle of physical, mental, and emotional growth. When a school accepts someone at 11 and assesses that child out a few months or a couple of years later, and then accepts a child at 13 who was rejected at 11, then you don't have an entirely objective measure of excellence, there's a degree of educated guesswork and prediction in the mix too. Also as already pointed out, if White Lodge accepts pupils who, in the same year, are rejected by other schools, then again you don't really just have the difference between excellent and very good. There seem to be slightly different definitions of excellent (I've often wondered if Balanchine would have accepted Margot Fonteyn into his school, with her height, physique, and dancing style being rather different from what he seemed to prefer), you have the issue of how well a kid performs in an audition (and if that kid is an associate who is known by the school, maybe a bad day will be treated more understandingly than a bad day by a kid who's being seen for the first time by the panel), and you also have the limit set by the number of available places regardless of how many near-perfect candidates there are. We're watching reruns of Inspector Lewis on TV at the moment, and we had to laugh at this comment from Sergeant Hathaway DS James Hathaway: [Hathaway, the Cambridge graduate, holds an Oxford student's essay] You know sometimes you couldn't believe that this was England's second best university.DI Robert Lewis: You're speaking objectively, of course. especially when my husband, having been accepted to study physics and astronomy at University College London (his first choice), was cut dead by his headmaster after it was explained that, no, it wasn't University College Oxford. Never mind that (at least at the time) Oxford didn't offer astronomy as a subject so wasn't of interest to my husband - this guy just had the idea that you only went to "other" universities if you weren't good enough for Oxbridge. Which may be true sometimes but certainly not all the time. Edited May 19, 2014 by Melody 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumofballetmaddaughter Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 IMHO there is absolutely no point in trying to second guess as to why one child is chosen over another during an audition process. I speak from experience having a daughter who has been auditioning on and off for the past 18 years. As a young child I quickly realised that to preserve my sanity I had to be objective about her abilities when the inevitable rejections came. And there have been far, far more of these than successes. I used to tell her that being successful at audition didn't make her a better dancer any more than being rejected made her a worse dancer. It was just that someone else was more suitable at that particular point in time. My daughter always took this on the chin and her philosophy was that she would keep knocking on the door until she was successful and that she accepted she wasn't what the panel were looking for when unsuccesful. She never got past waiting lists for RBS associates apart from one year at summer school and never made it to one of the top ballet schools. Has it been tough along the way, oh yes. There were many times, I could have cried for her and thought why not her but that would have done neither of us any good and as her mother I felt it was my role to teach her that life isn't always fair. Has she got the career as a ballerina that she dreamed about at 7. No, but she never gave up and has been dancing professionally for the past 6 years. I am very proud of her success as a dancer but I'm even prouder of her attitude over the years. 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I think that 'excellence' is not the right word to use, certainly in relation to year 7 entry when someone can get a place at the RBS (any vocational school?) having done very ballet. It is potential which is being considered and, as Julie said above, the students who are regarded as being the ones most suitable for training are the ones who are selected. Suitability can change over time and that is why some students are assessed out and others are offered places later. There is a dancer at the RB who unsuccessfully applied to the RBS several times. She eventually gained a place in the upper school and was one of the very few graduates to obtain a contract with the company. Did the RBS make a mistake when it turned her down repeatedly or did she improve to the point that she was 'better' than most of the other students applying for the upper school which presumably included a number of students who had trained at WL for several years? We'll never know 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Ballet & wider dance disciplines are indeed difficult competitive careers where the auditions contain far more good dancers than there are places at Vocational Schools. DH and I were discussing an item in the newspapers yesterday which said that there were 11 applicants for every place at Medical school. These are candidates who already have been "pre-selected" by their GCSE and predicted A-level results. So dancers should not feel they are the only ones who cannot get a place for training in their chosen career. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAIRBELLES Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 IMHO there is absolutely no point in trying to second guess as to why one child is chosen over another during an audition process. I speak from experience having a daughter who has been auditioning on and off for the past 18 years. As a young child I quickly realised that to preserve my sanity I had to be objective about her abilities when the inevitable rejections came. And there have been far, far more of these than successes. I used to tell her that being successful at audition didn't make her a better dancer any more than being rejected made her a worse dancer. It was just that someone else was more suitable at that particular point in time. My daughter always took this on the chin and her philosophy was that she would keep knocking on the door until she was successful and that she accepted she wasn't what the panel were looking for when unsuccesful. She never got past waiting lists for RBS associates apart from one year at summer school and never made it to one of the top ballet schools. Has it been tough along the way, oh yes. There were many times, I could have cried for her and thought why not her but that would have done neither of us any good and as her mother I felt it was my role to teach her that life isn't always fair. Has she got the career as a ballerina that she dreamed about at 7. No, but she never gave up and has been dancing professionally for the past 6 years. I am very proud of her success as a dancer but I'm even prouder of her attitude over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest balletmum16 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Thank you to all the people who have liked and private messaged me about the postings on here last night. For information, I am delighted with my daughter's place at Elmhurst (and her offer from Tring) and have no interest in her auditioning at RBS at 16 or in her attending MAs. I posed a discussion point last night and while everyone is entitled to their opinion, I honestly did not expect the vitriol and unpleasantness that I received. This forum is not a place for discussion. It is a forum to allow the same people who hide behind a keyboard to be as rude as they like. i regularly read people bullying and being rude to one another on other threads and am sad that the first time I post (outside of audition details) I am literally shouted down in such a personal and disgusting way. For those of you that can't see any negativity, then please re read the thread (when you can be bothered) and ask yourself if your posting were appropriate and if you would have phrased your words in the same way verbally. I won't post (or indeed read) this forum again. But I would warn any people who are reading that not all dance mums are like some of the ones on this forum and most of us have our feet firmly on the ground and are able to support our children with balance and care without being unkind and judgemental and to have the grace to be delighted for other people's children achievements alongside their own. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 PdQ, yes, but the difference with applications to medical school is that you largely have control over the factors which will influence the likelihood of success whereas you have little control over the development of your body for a career in ballet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAIRBELLES Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Not sure how I managed to post the quote before the reply . Well put Mumofaballetmaddaughter ! What will be will be . Even though my dd is at vocational school she has only just matured enough mentally to realise how hard she has to work. Had she got to WL she would more than likely have been assessed out . She was a JA but has been on more SWL for Royal than I care to remember but with each letter she just says "oh well " and I remind her how well she's done to get on the waiting list . The more knowledge and experience I gain from this journey the less I get my proverbial "knickers in a twist " . You absolutely cannot second guess these establishments . A change in AD can also alter what a panel chooses from one year to the next . 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Going back to the original title of this thread my perception is physically they all might be looking for something very slightly different in the children they choose but ultimately each panel will be looking for the same thing - a child that they believe will benefit from the training, flourish at the school and eventually graduate from their school and find employment. Yes they will make some mistakes but mostly they will get it right. They will loose some children along the way as physically they are no longer suitable for the schools training, are no longer passionate enough to continue or decide to leave the school for their own reasons. We can all tie ourselves in knots wondering about decisions that are made both at audition, appraisal or casting and yes they are important but they are out of our hands. All we can do as parents is offer support (and pay the bills) along the way whatever path our dc get to follow. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afab Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 (edited) I find it very very annoying, having read the whole thread, to see people who want to help and are maybe not always as diplomatic about it as one could hope but nevertheless very honest about who gets picked by the top schools of the world, vilipended and judged that way by another poster... Nobody's been unkind once, they have been informative. Selection is hard and we cannot do anything about it. Only the excellent ones will be picked by RBS, POBS, Hamburg, Princess Grace Academy, the Bolshoi, etc. I have to say I am the mother of non excellent DDs, good enough for top schools but not excellent enough for the very top and knowing that helps me caring for them and supporting them. Your attitude, balletmum16, has also been to take everything personally and the wrong way... and now accusing people of "vitriol and unpleasantness" among others so I won't be missing your attitude once you leave the forum. If this forum ceases to be honest at the same time as supportive, it doesn't have any reason to exist and wouldn't be useful to anyone. Edited May 20, 2014 by afab 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orchidblue Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Well said balletmum16. I think a few people should think whether they would say what they're about to post if the person they're posting to/about was stood in front of them. I've been shocked by the aggressiveness & bullying manner of some posts on this forum over the past few days. Maybe the sunshine has brought out the worst in people. I don't think this is a place I want to be though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afab Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 (edited) Seriously New posters with more attitude than knowledge, can you get down your high horses! Edited May 20, 2014 by afab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Thank you to all the people who have liked and private messaged me about the postings on here last night. For information, I am delighted with my daughter's place at Elmhurst (and her offer from Tring) and have no interest in her auditioning at RBS at 16 or in her attending MAs. I posed a discussion point last night and while everyone is entitled to their opinion, I honestly did not expect the vitriol and unpleasantness that I received. This forum is not a place for discussion. It is a forum to allow the same people who hide behind a keyboard to be as rude as they like. i regularly read people bullying and being rude to one another on other threads and am sad that the first time I post (outside of audition details) I am literally shouted down in such a personal and disgusting way. For those of you that can't see any negativity, then please re read the thread (when you can be bothered) and ask yourself if your posting were appropriate and if you would have phrased your words in the same way verbally. I won't post (or indeed read) this forum again. But I would warn any people who are reading that not all dance mums are like some of the ones on this forum and most of us have our feet firmly on the ground and are able to support our children with balance and care without being unkind and judgemental and to have the grace to be delighted for other people's children achievements alongside their own. Balletmum16, I understand that you are upset, but this forum does not "allow people who hide behind a keyboard to be as rude as they like", nor do we tolerate bullying. If you, or any other forum member, feels that a post contravenes our Acceptable Use Policy, then you should use the "Report" button. The post in question will then be flagged up to the Committee who will discuss it and take action where necessary. You will have seen me and the other Moderators keeping an eye on every thread, warning people where necessary that they may be close to breaching AUP. I saw that you were upset last night, and replied to you. I have not seen any evidence of you being "shouted down in such a personal and disgusting way" but if you - or anyone else - feel that someone has breached the Acceptable Use Policy then by all means use the "Report" function. Kind regards, 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Balletmum16 I actually made the time this morning to read back on comments people have made, as your words were very strong and accusing. Also seeing as you like to re quote peoples words i.e 'bothered to read', I thought that I had best double check what I had written, just in case you thought that I was being rude. In my opinion I really do not believe people have been nasty or rude, in fact people have gone the extra mile to compliment your daughter with very kind words. It is you that has been rude calling certain forum members 'elitist' just because you do not like what they have written. Not one person has said that your daughter is not good enough to make it as a classical dancer or eventually gain a place at WL 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I'm sorry Afab but I do not like to see comments like "I won't be missing your attitude once you leave" and "Seriously New posters with more attitude than knowledge, can you get down your high horses!" This is supposed to be a forum where all are welcome and can ask whatever question they like and as you say get honest and supportive responses. Sometimes responses are not always worded as well as they could be. I don't think anyone intentionally meant to upset balletmum16 and she has been reassured over and over of that but when emotions are running high, people need time to calm down a little. Comments like yours above just add fuel to the fire and are not exactly welcoming to new posters. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Having just been through the Upper School audition rounds and having been through the lows of the" no thank you"@ RBS and the highs of the "yes we want you" @ ENBS,Elmhurst,RCS and Ellison I can honestly say that I feel the right school for the child will pick them (and the child the school). I think that RBS do not always pick the most exceptional children - they pick the children that they feel will respond to their method of training. Many people said to me that my DD was a "dead cert" for RBS when in fact the reality was that she wasn't even offered finals. I believe of course that she is the one that got away but I also believe that she is truly happy with her final choice,will make every day count and will stand as good a chance as an RBS graduate when they stand shoulder to shoulder when auditioning for a contract - The Royal Ballet is not only made up from RBS graduates - Look at the alumni from Elmhurst balletmum16 and know that your DD is in a wonderful place,all good wishes to her! 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 In my opinion, this thread has become unconstructive now so I am going to lock it. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 This thread was hidden while under review by the Moderators. Although it has now been unhidden, it will remain locked as it became unconstructive and overly argumentative. We would like to take this opportunity to remind all posters that they must abide by the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy. Disrespectfulness and rudeness to other members will not be tolerated. Spannerandpony on behalf of BalletcoForum Moderators 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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