Dancers & SEN

[Actsingdance]

I'm usually known under another username but have logged in for this under a different account - hope that's OK.

 

I so wondered if any members had any experience of having dancing children with SEN. Specifically how they cope with the pressure of vocational training, socialising/fitting in etc.

[aileen]

Are you referring to specific learning difficulties such as dyslexia or learning disabilities such as ADHD or Asperger's? 

[Actsingdance]

The second category.

[swanprincess]

Ooh this thread will be interesting! As a young dancer with Aspergers, at residential summer schools I have found it hard to 'fit in' as being in a large friendship group is challenging because I struggle to communicate and don't know what to say to people. Also, in the evenings, I would stretch for a while- this seemed bizarre to the other girls; classes had finished for the day so why was I still thinking about dance? I didn't know how to respond to their lighthearted teasing, and as such, felt quite isolated. I too am curious as to how dancers with social difficulties such as Aspergers cope at vocational schools...

[aileen]

My gut feeling tells me that it would be very tough indeed for a student with some sort of learning disabilty, as it is very tough for students without a learning disability. The son of some friends of ours, who is mildly autistic, attends a mainstream academic boarding school where he is thriving but his learning is topped up by his parents and he comes home quite frequently (ie between exeats). Vocational school would be more demanding than an academic school, I would think.

[primrose]

I think there are a number of children in vocational schools who have SEN. I think they fit in very well as in my opinion most dancers are quirky or drama queens.These schools lend themselves very well in allowing children to express themselves through different mediums. All of the schools offer an excellent curriculum that is diverse to cater for all levels of learning. At the end of the day it comes down to the severity of the SEN. Would your child have managed in mainstream education or would a SEN school have been better.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I'm very interested in this topic.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

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Edited May 11, 2014 by Picturesinthefirelight

[Miracle]

I would say that quite a high percentage of students in lower school have the above. Higher than in the mainstream. It was mentioned in the talk to parents at one of the 4 top lower school auditions. My personal option is that students with the above will always have a mastery in something be it computers, art, music, memory or indeed dance that makes them very focused that way. X

[Katymac]

Something I'm unsure about (I hope you don't mind me asking on your thread ActSingDance) is when in competitions groups of dancers with additional needs (usually physical disabilities) compete against groups of dancers

 

I feel uncomfortable as the competition seems so unfair

 

WRT ASD I think that wherever they are educated they will struggle the provision for children who are not NT in this country is generally poor.  I would hope that vocational schools would be used to 'quirky' or 'unusual' personalities as often people with great talent display behaviours outside our 'norm' (whatever that is)

 

SN & SEN training is poor and many preconceptions about ability/disability & education are rife in many, many mainstream schools

 

'Special needs' is a term I hate - 'Additional needs' is much more appropriate particularly in educational settings (climbs off high horse )

[aileen]

It all depends on the severity of the condition, surely. Finding it hard to socialise or being a bit quirky or 'odd' does not mean that a person has Asperger's Syndrome (AS). Further down the line, how will a person with AS manage in a company where flexibility, teamwork, long hours in close proximity with other people (perhaps on tour), empathy and intimate contact with a range of dancing partners are all required. Company life is extremely pressured and I honestly wonder whether a person with AS would cope, let alone thrive.

[straceydor]

AS people can do anything they want to do the problems start when they do not want to do things that they have to.

The statement above does not make sense but it will to those dealing with AS

[Fiz]

My eldest ex dd had ADHD. No one wanted to know her. It was the same at school. The internet has been her salvation as she has met others like herself and people who will accept her the way she is.

[Actsingdance]

Perfect sense Stracey

[Anna C]

I would respectfully disagree with "most dancers" being either "quirky or drama queens". Thinking about dd and her friends, and about a couple of professional dancers I know, they are neither. Highly focused, certainly, but I wouldn't think of them as drama queens in any way. "Quirky"? Probably not but it depends upon your definition of the word. :-)

[straceydor]

I totally agree spannerandpony. One persons quirky is another person normality

[aileen]

I agree with spanner. Young people who train at a high level in most fields are slightly separated from their everyday peers because they have to make huge sacrifices in order to pursue a career in their chosen professions.

[Katymac]

I wouldn't use drama queen but 'quirky' I would - the ones I know/have met have had better arts knowledge than other teens I have come across a more defined personality with real character and often a good sense of ambition

 

The 'other' teens I know can barely string sentences together on anything other than school/TV/popstars have little concept of their 'future' and how the effort they put in to their studies can have a direct affect on it.

 

Now I have met both types in both camps - but the majorities are 'true to stereotype'.  Maybe the ones I have met have been unusual - but I can only comment on the ones I meet

[aileen]

And, contrary to popular belief, people with Asperger's Syndrome (AS) and Autism do not all have a special talent. I am deeply sceptical that the vocational dance schools are full of students with AS. Sadly, many teenagers and adults with AS suffer from depression and other mental health problems such as OCD and I wonder whether the schools and, later, the companies have the capacity to support a person with a complex mix of support needs.

[primrose]

Having experienced several vocational schools over the last 8 years I stand by my comments. That is not to say that these students work to incredibly high standards. They are dedicated to their art and make so many sacrifices no youngster should have to.

I teach youngsters with additional needs in mainstream school. I also have a son who has mild ASD epilepsy and cerebral palsy. I am a bit too passionat when working with these youngsters and ensuring they access the curriculum the same as their peers. So from my personal experiences this has been my interpretation of what I have witnessed of students at vocational schools but this certainly does not apply to all.

[primrose]

Sadly aileen I can relate to what you are saying about the depression and ocd as my son is going through this right now. He up until last week played cerebral palsy football for England the pressure he put on himself was immense and sadly he turned down his place at the nationals. What I am trying to say is that he had up to this point had such a great experience of playing at this level. We gave him the opportunities to try to reach his potential. Sadly it was too much for him for now. I would encourage any person with or without a additional need to give it a go. Things may or not work out the same applies for everybody else. Just make sure there is a good support network in place. Who knows their aspirations just might become a reality. It they dont try they will never know.

By the way I do not believe that voc schools are full of student with ASD. Unless one is a pychologist and have gone around diagnosing students then non of us know for sure if a child has a additional need. What would be really interesting though would be if any of the students hold a statement of their educational needs.

[aileen]

What a shame for your son, primrose, but at least he had a period (some years?) of enjoying playing football at a very high level. I do think that some environments and professions will be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, for a person with an ASD though. Can a vocational school or company be expected to give the long term support which the person requires? Can a person with an ASD cope with the complexities and pressures of vocational school and company life? I suspect that s/he would need a permanent support worker, if s/he did not have a parent at close at hand at all times.

[Fiz]

My eldest also dropped out of university. It was the wrong place for her completely but I think she would have struggled wherever she went. I think a gap year might have helped too.

[primrose]

I think it depends how severe the ASD is and how it affects the person. Many people have very little understanding of autism. Many believe it is the isolated person who requires no friends and have no eye contact or language etc. Yes the extremes can be like this but mostly people on the spectrum do live independent lives even get married. There was a documentary about autism on the television a few weeks ago highlighting the strategies people with asd can put in place to help themselves. Quite a few were public speakers etc.

[Actsingdance]

I saw that programme.

 

Lots to think about.

 

We've been told that lots of performers have HFA or Aspergers (quite a few actors apparently) & one of our child's teachers is on the spectrum.

 

Also the current school were very quick to pick up on the social problems whereas the previous school never suggested any problems.

 

I agree that not all ASD children have a talent but they do seem to have obsessions (which may or may not change over time & which rule their lives.

 

One of my children has had various obsessions which are seen by their school as a problem because it prevents them getting on with what they are supposed to be doing (Thomas the Tank, Pokemon , now Minecraft)

 

The other child's obsession of dancing was never really seen as a problem before.

 

Both children are perfectionists & have meltdowns if they can't do things first time.

[Lisa O`Brien]

I have found it hard to socialise with people since the age of about 15. I was diagnosed with Social Phobia or Social Phobic Disorder to be precise,about 10 years ago by a Psychiatrist. He told me that if it had been dealt with at the time I could have been "cured" of it. [Don`t quite know how else to phrase it,but you know what I mean].However,he told me because I was at the time in my thirties,my personality was "set," and I will have this condition for the rest of my life. My Social Phobia affects everything I do and everyone I come into contact with. I think that`s one of the reasons I like this Forum so much; I feel "safe" on here, interacting with people without having to interact with people, if you know what I mean.!!

[Lisa O`Brien]

Just to add,but obviously,I realise that Aspberger`s is different, and it can`t be "cured" if it is diagnosed in time. I have a friend whose son was finally diagnosed with it when he was 14 I think. They always knew there was something "different" about him,but of course,didn`t know what. Then 2 years later his younger brother was diagnosed with ADHD. I think it has helped the whole family enormously knowing what it is they were dealing with. I felt this too,a sense of relief when |I got my diagnosis. 

[Fiz]

I do understand this. I was thrilled when we had a diagnosis for our eldest but "keep taking the tablets" was all we were ever told. She is highly intelligent and would get very frustrated when she could not do things perfectly. Eventually she stopped trying at school because she was either not challenged enough or challenged too much - she is left handed and dyspractic to add to the mix.

[Tulip]

We mustn't forget though that S.E.N covers a very wide and varied area of problems. Hammond and Tring on the academic side appeared to support pupils who had additional needs. Tring was very good if your child was very bright academically. Regarding emotional needs, house parents would have to play a very important role. I don't know if there is extra training in place for that area, which would be crucial for a child if they were away from home. 

[aileen]

I'm surprised to read that a lot of actors and performers who are required to act as part of their 'art' have ASDs as acting requires you to get under the skin of a character and this is a skill that I imagine people with ASDs would struggle to acquire. I'm probably going to be shouted down for saying this but I feel that the perameters for a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome have become a little too broad in recent years and that people seek a diagnosis where they or their child struggles socially, or is a bit 'quirky' in some way or does not fit in with his/her peer group. If you have AS you will struggle in any social situation as you will be unable to empathise with other people, modify your behaviour in different situations and interpret the subtleties and undercurrents of everyday social interactions.

[primrose]

It is actually very difficult to get a diagnosis for ASD. Aspergers is now not a diagnosis and will go under the title of asd. The spectrum is huge. Most are literal so if told to act a certain way then they will. Yes they all struggle socially in understanding relationships humour idioms etc but strategies and structures can be put in place to enable the person to function as well as can be expected. Sadly I see so many undiagnosed children who are obviously Autistic and struggle as they dont recieve the help structure and support they need. I am yet to see a diagnosed Asder who I dont think has it. Just peel back the layers undo the structure and it will stare you in the face.

Edited May 11, 2014 by primrose

[LinMM]

Aspergers does also have its own degrees of as well

People who have a mild form can sometimes function reasonably independently as adults but may be thought of as just a bit "strange" by others but can fit in to a degree.

However a more definite form of Aspergers can lead to all sorts of problems once the child has left home.......if they ever do that is.

 

It is difficult for them to hold down a job and they frequently get into difficult social situations which usually a parent .......even though their child may be in their 40's etc .....has to try and sort out. They often cannot control their frustrations which can come out in violent rages ........much more scary in an adult than a child of course...And often have to take anti depressant medication.

 

I would say that for some people on the Autistic Spectrum or who have a more severe form of Aspergers a life in the theatre would be difficult because it is more unpredictable and uncertain and doesn't really have set routines which a lot of those who have these disorders prefer as it gives them more sense of control.

I have two friends.......who don't know each other......both who have sons with Aspergers. One is in his 30's the other in his 40's.

One is able to hold down a job (in fact has a very good job and is highly intelligent in other ways) .....the other not.....drifts from job to job.

Both have caused parents to have to deal with the police on more than one occasion. Both have caused public disturbances on more than one occasion.

Both friends worry like mad most of the time about these sons......especially if they haven't heard from them for more than a week or so.

 

It is certainly not easy being such a parent and both these two friends deserve a medal for their patience and tolerance......and make me feel quite inadequate in the obvious strengths they have developed over the years in loving their sons so much.

Edited May 11, 2014 by LinMM

[FullContretemps]

Was going to try and post under a different name but I guess there are few enough people on here who know me in real life for it to matter! Sorry it got a bit rambling.

 

Ooh here is a fascinating topic. I can't comment on being in vocational school or a company as there are so many reasons why I could never have been a professional dancer, and I can see that it could be a very challenging environment for dancers with additional needs. I'm mostly commenting from the point of view of ASD/Asperger's/HFA/whatever we want to call it as I was diagnosed last year with Asperger's. As many others have pointed out, it was a huge relief to get this diagnosis at the age of 24 and it has helped me understand myself and how to manage the things I find difficult. (Let me be clear here: my autism is not very obvious to those who just see me in day to day life - my friends and acquaintances just see me as quirky and I've not told many of them about the diagnosis, so I do not have as many issues as some on the spectrum.)

 

 

What I found really interesting was when I went for my follow-up appointment with the psychologist, we were talking about how to balance the need to be sociable and the difficulties of being sociable and need for my own time and he picked up that a massive coping and enabling mechanism for me is my ballet.

 

 

Going to class means spending time with people in a clear, structured environment where relatively little interaction is actually required. I know exactly how to behave and what to expect and the order that class will take. The music and the movements are generally familiar and that is calming. Technique is very specific and prescribed and can be worked on. There is a short space of time at the beginning and end of class in the changing room where it is optional to talk to others but this can easily be minimised as necessary. So you have the feeling of being with people but in a manageable quantity.

 

 

Funnily enough through that I have actually made a friend or two and now might actually stay and chat for a while after class and keep up with people on Facebook, but it is my choice and I can take it at my own pace, as little or much as I can manage. The psychologist was quite amazed as we discussed this and he drew it out of me (had never added it up like that myself before though I knew I loved it!) and said he felt like he should prescribe ballet for everyone because it seems an ideal environment for us haha.

 

 

Of course in school or a company there are more social issues, but I'm guessing it's likely there is a special interest of dancing, which in that environment would actually be shared by those around. So yes, I think it would be a challenge, but even bog-standard school and University and a normal job are a challenge if you have ASD. If you can find one or two people to stick together with, wherever you are that can get you through. I am likely to be wrong, never having been there, but don't know whether vocational school/company would be much more difficult than elsewhere.