Ruby Foo Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 10 minutes ago, Roberta said: I think you'll find this is something that occurs in many mainstream schools also, especially in large Academies, with a head who oversees more than one site. Many of those are quite successful schools. A head of a smallish school (1000 isn't huge these days) who only has to oversee that school and not play a part on wider world stage of excellence really can't be compared to the AD of the RBS in these times I don't think. I don't see that dropping in and out and teaching one off classes is adding a great deal to individual student progress, and it all becomes too insular and the role really is much wider ranging and international now. There are only so many hours in a day, and if you have excellent staff hired to teach, I think they should be allowed to get on with doing that. Do you mean that being a hands on, in touch, nurturing AD would be beneath the role? A step down maybe, from travelling the world promoting the RBS and picking up talent en route? Teachers are not heads of schools. That is a very different role. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I think the role is an international one nowadays. I don't think there can be any doubt about that. It's how ballet is now. I think teaching experience is vital to the role of AD, but I think excellent teachers at both schools should be left to get on with daily teaching of their students, who they know and who appreciate from day to day what needs to be worked on. I think the AD should be around both schools as a friendly presence, and drop in to watch class from time to time, but I really don't think being an occasional guest teacher is going to add hugely to student progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophoife Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) I think you'll find, @Roberta, that in any school of whatever size (and believe me, 1,000 students and the head knows every child is not a small school, 350 is a small school), the benefit to all students of having the head take a class is immeasurable. Particularly at a school like RBS or ABS. Sure, the kid got in. Sure, the kid might be A+ in a class of A+ kids. It is the head, with all their knowledge/experience/contacts, seeing that kid that can make all the difference to that kid's future. For example, Marilyn Rowe saw and took an interest in Hannah O'Neill, whose dream was not AusBallet but POB. It was she who coached for YAGP and PdL, knowing that gave Hannah a better chance of being seen by her chosen people. It was her contacts that enabled Hannah to get the right sort of coaching for the POB external entry comp, from which she earned several short-term contracts before getting the big one, the permanent contract. @Ruby Foo I thoroughly endorse your comments. If the head's never there, doesn't know the students, and never takes a class, the school's culture and the students' experience and even outcomes suffer. Edited January 14 by Sophoife Deleted some and added some. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 33 minutes ago, Roberta said: I think you'll find this is something that occurs in many mainstream schools also, especially in large Academies, with a head who oversees more than one site. Many of those are quite successful schools. I went to a very good grammar school ( around 600 pupils) and if the head knew me I would be a monkey's uncle! Surely it is up to the board to define the job. I don't think combining the jobs of AD and CEO is a good idea (even though Christopher Hampson seems to be doing well in the double role at Scottish Ballet). Presumably the AD of the RBS oversees both lower and upper schools which are on different sites, which adds a degree of complexity. It's probably best to wait for the Job Description that should be available when the job is advertised. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) Darcey Bussell and Norah Roche? 11 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said: I went to a very good grammar school and if the head knew me I would be a monkey's uncle! Same. 800 of us. The head did know me however, though not really for the right reasons! Some schools nowadays have 2500 students, on varying sites. You'd have to be the Memory Man (or woman) to know every one. Yes the role is defined by those writing the job description. The role is monitored by governors / trustees. I very much suspect the continuing international nature of the role will be part of that. I also think the role at the RBS may well be a poisoned chalice in the short term, with all the publicity which is bound to ensue pending probable up coming court action, so an excellent PR person is also needed, though in the interest of not prejudicing any possible hearings we need to not discuss here any details. Edited January 14 by Roberta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Ruby Foo - You absolutely sum up the formula for any good management/leadership - be it of any small or large school, a small family business or a giant global corporation. (And as for those governing countries.....that gave an ironic smile as we can only dream of having wise experienced & empathetic leaders of the worlds nations!) Any good leader of any industry needs to be on the 'factory floor' for significant amounts of time so as boardroom decisions can be made from a position of knowledge & understanding as to what will best aid the overall business aim. Perhaps this latter point - the aim - is another element that needs looking at within the wider remit of RBS. A time with change of leadership will surely be an ideal time to give the opportunity for a root & branch analysis of the state of the health of this beautiful part of the ecosystem of ballet! And I feel this needs looking beyond just RBS but at that whole global ecosystem. From early years recreational dancing through to vocational training & right to companies & - dare I suggest? - the audiences of dance performances who I feel so often are far removed from the thoughts of decision makers yet they are the ones ultimately paying to fund this artform (along with in UK taxpayers....although I can't but help think, if some decisions began with looking at what audiences wanted, then revenues would increase with less reliance on subsidies required. Possible win win? And before folks say what about diversity or how will anything new ever be allowed to be made - please, give audiences the courtesy of asking them what they want. I think we'd find there was an appetite for new & experimental & diverse dance....just at the right time/place/price point to start off - let it grow organically from there as it surely will if it is what audiences then find they enjoy & will pay for. It is so wrong when people say we'd only ever get endless Swan Lakes & Sleeping Beauties - though isn't that too much the case already???) I feel we have too much trusted classics with then a huge void passing over & missing out many decades & many styles of dance & many choreographers work to then an over-emphasis on creating very 'cutting edge' 'worthy' new works.....we need a better balance! Sorry to digress away from the topic in hand & - back to what Ruby says, and i quote, "When the heads of institutions remain distant and aloof from reality then trouble sets in" I personally feel this is the case currently not just at RBS but at the RB too! all my own personal humble opinion. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 25 minutes ago, Roberta said: but I think excellent teachers at both schools should be left to get on with daily teaching of their students Hmmm....sometimes I fear that is exactly part of the problem in certain institutions - especially where a year group may have just one teacher for their daily grass roots ballet class. If you do not work well with that teacher, you may well not have the same experience as another. And this could hugely affect futures. And similarly, bad practice by a teacher may be missed if the AD is not a present & approachable person to both pupils & staff. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Peanut68 said: Hmmm....sometimes I fear that is exactly part of the problem in certain institutions - especially where a year group may have just one teacher for their daily grass roots ballet class. If you do not work well with that teacher, you may well not have the same experience as another. And this could hugely affect futures. And similarly, bad practice by a teacher may be missed if the AD is not a present & approachable person to both pupils & staff. The AD can't be both present on a daily basis overseeing two sites, teaching classes at all levels, and also acting as the international face of both schools, working on an international stage. And I suspect that international presence is going to still be very much part of the job of Artistic Director. Edited January 14 by Roberta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Foo Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 12 minutes ago, Peanut68 said: Hmmm....sometimes I fear that is exactly part of the problem in certain institutions - especially where a year group may have just one teacher for their daily grass roots ballet class. If you do not work well with that teacher, you may well not have the same experience as another. And this could hugely affect futures. And similarly, bad practice by a teacher may be missed if the AD is not a present & approachable person to both pupils & staff. Exactly Roberta! This is why we hope and pray for all those young people in training now that things can change! Maybe the job description will change? Exactly Peanut! Thank you! Having just one teacher the whole year round may have benefits but also has a whole spectrum of negatives which will never be discovered unless the AD is present for much of the time. Quite apart from the problem of clandestine bullying which can remain the whole year there are also problems with different style’s being taught. In 1st year upper the teacher had a very unique style she demanded. In 2nd year, the teacher asked them who had taught them that way and pared it all back. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Presumably the job of the Artistic Director of a school also entails ensuring that the training the students receive is in line with the AD's artistic vision for those students and the school as a whole. I simply don't know how they could possibly do that unless they are present in class on a regular and frequent basis. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 At my child’s school, the head of the school is also the AD for the second/junior company. He doesn’t teach class at the upper school on a regular basis, but he maintains a steady presence, and drops in on classes. He knows all of the students by name and they have regularly scheduled short meetings with him. They talk about their goals, where they want to audition, or just any concerns they have or struggles they’re having related to dance. He has a group chat set up where he notifies them about upcoming auditions. He even checked in with them when a company wanted to come to audition students during a particularly busy time—asking if it would work for the students or if he should try to schedule it at a different time. Yes, it is mostly teachers and administrators that handle to day-to-day work, but he sets the tone for the school and he makes sure to be particularly involved with helping guide the upper level students. The school is very international and of a very high standard, so it is possible. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 The role of any director is to direct. That is literally their job. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophoife Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 None so blind as those who cannot see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Foo Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 8 hours ago, Birdy said: At my child’s school, the head of the school is also the AD for the second/junior company. He doesn’t teach class at the upper school on a regular basis, but he maintains a steady presence, and drops in on classes. He knows all of the students by name and they have regularly scheduled short meetings with him. They talk about their goals, where they want to audition, or just any concerns they have or struggles they’re having related to dance. He has a group chat set up where he notifies them about upcoming auditions. He even checked in with them when a company wanted to come to audition students during a particularly busy time—asking if it would work for the students or if he should try to schedule it at a different time. Yes, it is mostly teachers and administrators that handle to day-to-day work, but he sets the tone for the school and he makes sure to be particularly involved with helping guide the upper level students. The school is very international and of a very high standard, so it is possible. This sounds very healthy Birdy and how it should be. In 5 years at RBS, (3 at WL and 2 in Upper) the AD only spoke to my daughter once - at her audition. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiaramum Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 I think Roberta you are missing the point entirely. If you look back at interviews the current AD says the below, but then is often there teaching a masterclass and directly recruiting from there. My dd never had a class with the current AD and he didn't know her name. The AD should know his current students and their goals, expectations. There should be clear support for them all whether they fit the mould he requires or not. The large proportion of students who don't make it to year 11 needs to be considered (and I don't mean the ones who choose to leave), that only one or two make it to upper school is shocking. Those who graduate the RBS are often the ones who have been hand picked by the AD and have actually only spent a year at best in the school and then claim to be a graduate. The AD job role needs to be changed to reflect the demands of a ballet school in 2024 and ongoing, where the health - physical and mental - comes first, where students are inspired daily, where they feel valued and known, where their goals and ambitions are discussed openly, where honest communication with parents is encouraged. Given the fees paid students should not just be a number. A student’s training is now so often being fast-tracked for these competitions in a way that I believe can be unhealthy. Ballet requires so much more than the physical and technical ability to execute a step or series of steps. I am not alone in feeling that some competitions foster a culture that fails to encourage the development of artists – where technique is emphasised over artistry and students seek to reach extremes before they have mastered the basics. We see audiences agog at the elaborate physical tricks on display. That audience should be looking for an expressive dancer trying to communicate emotion, dynamics, musicality, storytelling ability, alongside an accomplished, clean technique relative to their age. Isn’t this what the art-form is truly about? This fast-tracking could potentially cause serious psychological and physical damage. Ballet institutions like ours are learning more and more about the body and mind of our students and constantly researching how to develop healthier and more resilient dancers. As educators, I believe we have a responsibility to these young people and as an industry, a duty to adapt or make changes when we see something potentially harmful is going on. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 13/01/2024 at 01:16, Sophoife said: Thank you @Emeralds. I'm happy to defer to a Proper Expert in the matter of mixed-sex groups being alumni, but I'll stubbornly continue to use the female form for one or more females 🤭 Alumnae is correct for an all female group, but in the context of your post alumni is correct since DB is one of a mixed group of graduates and we assume that both male and female candidates will be considered for the role. While I'm fond of Darcey Bussell, I don't think she'd be the best candidate for this role. Unrelated to the above comment, I would like to see more of a link between the upper and lower schools. This is something that has been spoken about often in the past and I believe was one of the goals of the outgoing director, but I'd like to a big change towards training the students at WL to be the kind of dancers the upper school wants. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophoife Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Back in the day, @invisiblecircus, when both Lower and Upper Schools were at Baron's Court (yes, I know very well the facilities are unsuitable for a modern ballet school), there was just the sort of link/progression you describe as desirable. Perhaps the solution is for the lease in Richmond to be surrendered and the Lower School to be moved, boarders and all, to Covent Garden. Can you imagine the cost in these days 😳 even so, I think it would be a good idea. Staff could teach in both divisions, and the AD's obligation to keep an eye on/be aware of all students would be much easier to fulfil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalletcoForum Moderators Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 A number of posts (and responses relating to them) have been hidden on this thread while the Moderators consider if they breach AUP. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerfuffle Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 I wonder how the year 11s compare at WL to those at other schools such as POB, Dutch National? When they offer places at the upper school are a good amount of them coming from such top schools and not just competitions? At an upper school there are bound to be dancers from all over Europe and beyond. An AD can still go to these competitions at the top levels and have a presence in a school. They can still know their students too. Perhaps expecting just one head for lower and upper school as well as all the other CEO demands is too much. An ex governor on Instagram who I think people are aware of on this forum said this job of AD CEO used to be split between three different roles. I’m no expert but it sounded like there was more accountability. It would be lovely if the schools reflected Ninette de Valois’s original vision, for an English style to be developed. I don’t mean everyone needs to be English, just an emphasis on what makes RB unique. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 19 hours ago, Roberta said: I also think the role at the RBS may well be a poisoned chalice in the short term, with all the publicity which is bound to ensue pending probable up coming court action, so an excellent PR person is also needed, though in the interest of not prejudicing any possible hearings we need to not discuss here any details. This is a pertinent point, and it *may* be that we need to put any discussion of RBS/The AD/allegations of malpractice on hold here; something that may mean locking and/or hiding threads. Should this be necessary (and please bear with us while we discuss), please understand that we would be taking the decision in line with our legal obligations, just as we have with other institutions. Many thanks, Anna C on behalf of Balletcoforum Moderators. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Foo Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 24 minutes ago, Sophoife said: Back in the day, @invisiblecircus, when both Lower and Upper Schools were at Baron's Court (yes, I know very well the facilities are unsuitable for a modern ballet school), there was just the sort of link/progression you describe as desirable. Perhaps the solution is for the lease in Richmond to be surrendered and the Lower School to be moved, boarders and all, to Covent Garden. Can you imagine the cost in these days 😳 even so, I think it would be a good idea. Staff could teach in both divisions, and the AD's obligation to keep an eye on/be aware of all students would be much easier to fulfil. Travelling from White Lodge to Upper School can take anything from an hour to 2.5. hours. Since they closed the Hammersmith Bridge, the traffic around SW London is unbearable at the wrong times. Just stating the impracticalities. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 1 hour ago, Tiaramum said: I think Roberta you are missing the point entirely I don't think I am missing the point, I'm being very mindful, however, of what I said above about pending court action which brings constraints on discussion. The quote you gave is really very good and one with which we can surely all agree. It is possible the current AD thinks that only by being a participant, as judge and teacher, in these competitions can they be changed to become a far more healthy environment for the young people entering, and an enriching experience. I think there have been changes over times, which is all to the good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophoife Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 1 hour ago, Ruby Foo said: Travelling from White Lodge to Upper School can take anything from an hour to 2.5. hours. Since they closed the Hammersmith Bridge, the traffic around SW London is unbearable at the wrong times. Just stating the impracticalities. Ruby, I meant shift the entire Lower School to Covent Garden. Permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Sounds like a good idea but not sure it’s very realistic as there’s no room in Covent Garden for the whole Lower school and boarding facilities etc etc Also even if there was accommodation in Covent Garden area I think Richmond Park is a nicer environment than Covent Garden for the younger children. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Foo Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 36 minutes ago, Sophoife said: Ruby, I meant shift the entire Lower School to Covent Garden. Permanently. Yes, sorry. I wasn’t really referring to the students in my post though. I just quoted you because it was about location. My mistake. I was referring to a new AD trying to do what I would wish for ( being present and in touch) whilst travelling between the two locations which is really unrealistic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerfuffle Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Roberta said: I don't think I am missing the point, I'm being very mindful, however, of what I said above about pending court action which brings constraints on discussion. The quote you gave is really very good and one with which we can surely all agree. It is possible the current AD thinks that only by being a participant, as judge and teacher, in these competitions can they be changed to become a far more healthy environment for the young people entering, and an enriching experience. I think there have been changes over times, which is all to the good. The competitions themselves are fine and can offer good opportunities to perform for the dancers. An AD spending a massive time at them and very little at their actual school is the problem, if the current pupils are neglected or even worse seen as easily replaceable by a shiny new toy. Ballet training is also about the day by day discipline of gradually improving and learning your art form. That’s what should be the focus I think. Edited January 15 by Kerfuffle 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 I think maybe we are straying into the territory here of saying things that could be prejudicial and that's really not to be recommended if a court case is pending. We don't want the forum moderators (who are ultimately responsible for what appears on this site) to be clapped in jail, do we? See @Anna C post above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerfuffle Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 I’m just commenting in general, it’s something I’ve observed that’s all. I want this thread kept open too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 2 hours ago, Roberta said: I think maybe we are straying into the territory here of saying things that could be prejudicial and that's really not to be recommended if a court case is pending. We don't want the forum moderators (who are ultimately responsible for what appears on this site) to be clapped in jail, do we? See @Anna C post above. Prejudicial? No one has been charged, so how can anything be prejudicial at this stage? The relevant IPSO guide sums things up nicely: >> There are also rules about what a newspaper (or any member of the public) can publish which might be in contempt of court. Once somebody has been arrested or civil proceedings have started, they are protected by law from the publication of information which might mean that their trial cannot take place fairly. The rules of this Forum are in part, as Sim said earlier, to manage these issues. But of course the Forum, as it has its own rules in addition to English law, can make more restrictive decisions if it deems this necessary. So yes, it’s right to be careful. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, Geoff said: So yes, it’s right to be careful. Exactly that. (You missed some deleted posts BTW.) I don't know how far along the line the case which, last time I looked, Leigh Day said was being brought before a judge has progressed. However, making adverse comments about someone unable to come on here and challenge / defend themselves is maybe a little unwise at this time. The 'it's my opinion' defence of course applies, though we should take care how those opinions are expressed and also that they don't fall foul of what the forum rules say. There is an entire disappeared thread on a similar theme. We none of us can know the entire story. We all have our theories and opinions and experiences, we don't have a completed jigsaw. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerfuffle Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Are you talking about the abuse at ballet schools case? I was writing in a general sense about competition culture, how it affects school intake, nothing to do with Panorama or anything related to it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said: Are you talking about the abuse at ballet schools case? I was writing in a general sense about competition culture, how it affects school intake, nothing to do with Panorama or anything related to it. It all got rather specific in the middle of the night and we do need to keep it general I feel rather than any particular school, and this thread is about a particular school. This particular school, the RBS, was specifically mentioned by Leigh Day as the one a court case was being brought against. I don't know how far along the line that has now proceeded. (And we need to always have libel law in our minds of course, I had a friend caught up in one of those, a SLAPP case really, and though she didn't lose it still cost her a great deal of money to fight / settle.) Last news I saw on the RBS case was here. https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2023-blogs/abuse-in-ballet-update/ We have registered one case already at the High Court in London and await a court hearing to address next steps in that case, to include the listing of a trial date. We have also instructed a barrister Nina Ross to work with us on these cases, and she is also going to be acting, as we are, on a no win no fee basis. Royal Ballet haven’t provided a response at the date of writing This is why I said I think it could be a poisoned chalice for any new AD. New job and the glare of adverse publicity? I can't say who I think will be applying for the role as I have no crystal ball. I'm not sure some mentioned here have the relevant experience. / expertise mix. The current AD is staying on until summer I believe and I look forward to reading the advert with the role description. As an aside, it wasn't so very long ago that students at White Lodge were expected to curtsey / bow if the Director was spotted in the vicinity. That was still the case when Mere Park was in charge. Quaint. Edited January 15 by Roberta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerfuffle Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Ah I see this is probably something I have missed along the way, thank you for the explanation. I would imagine the curtsying was an old tradition dating back to De Valois’s era! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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