post 16 dance - general advice please :)

[So-not-a-Dancemom]

I'm the mum of a 15 year old who has danced for fun and dance school performances since she was 4. Ballet, tap, modern, jazz, the whole caboodle. 

 

She *loves* it but is a real perfectionist about it. She wants to do dance post 16 and has ambitions to 'perform on the west end'. 

 

I think she's good, certainly enthusiastic and has a great performance face.  But I'm worried about encouraging this as a career path. 

 

She is fairly bright but doesn't see herself doing anything else.  I guess, in all honesty, I'd like her to do A levels at the local 6th form.  But she won't entertain this.

 

She is auditioning for some local dance colleges, but is very keen on The Hammond Diploma course.

 

Has anyone else had a DD like this and they've had a positive experience/outcome of dance college?

 

Help please!

 

 

[Jan McNulty]

Hello @So-not-a-Dancemom and welcome to the Forum!

 

 

[mum5678]

DS left home at 16 to do professional training. He's very bright, got amazing GCSE results, but was just 'done' with school and all he wanted to do was to go to dance school. 

 

He's now in second year of professional training and absolutely LOVES it. He loves what he's doing, his particular dance school, where he's living... the whole shebang. Every time he comes home and meets up with his friends from home he talks about how grateful he is not to be doing A levels and that he's doing what he is (he knows he could have managed them academically.... in his mind it was just wasting a couple of years of his life till he could do what he wanted to be doing). 

 

He's never going to be the best technically, and who knows how it will end... I worry constantly about whether he will ever get a job in the industry and have a chance to actually do what he's training in and loves so much. But he is finding that he certainly has his strengths (pas de deux for him) and he's genuinely so happy where he is now. He has the loveliest group of friends both at dance school and at home, and is happy living away from home, and coping admirably with all the associated life skills that come with that (cooking, laundry etc..) All I can say is that it's lovely to see him happy for now. He was always a sparky, shiny kid when he was younger and then secondary school really knocked the sparkle out of him, despite him achieving academically fairly effortlessly and having a lot of friends there. 

 

Getting my head around him not doing A levels was really tough for me (especially as an ex teacher!) but that said, I've seen so many kids pushed into doing things because it's what their parents thought was best for them (and then watched the kids push back in whatever way they can) that I just think sometimes it's not worth it. A levels will always be there, dancing might not, and at the end of the day my OH and I agreed that he was so passionate that he had to at least give it a go or he'd always wonder what could have been and resent us for it. There's no easy choice, but that was our thinking. 

 

Good luck... Xx

[Mamaderuby]

I think that if she is not going down the pure classical ballet route, there is no rush. Getting a few A levels, particularly if she is academic, will leave the door open for other options in the future, should she get injured, or decide to follow another career path, either instead of, or after a dance career. I found that my DD matured a lot between 16 and 18, not just as a dancer, but as a person, and was glad that we decided she would be better off starting at 18. I realise that all DCs are different, but IMO getting a few good A levels can only be of benefit.

[So-not-a-Dancemom]

Thanks all, I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

 

I think a bit similarly to @mum5678, that my daughter hasn't had a great time at secondary school.  She finds it stifling and tedious.  She just lives for her after school dance classes and school BTEC Dance.

 

I wouldn't want her to think I didn't 'let her' follow her dream.  I'm trying to be supportive and realistic and think that if she did get into the Hammond for example, at least they can do some teacher training qualifications too, in pilates I think, so she could get a job in the fitness industry.  I also think doing something you love is really important, if you possibly can.  I'm a social worker and hate my job but it's all I've qualified for, so I'm pretty stuck with it til retirement now!

 

I'm also pretty impressed that the Hammond diploma is a 3 year training from 16 at level 6 which is way better than the btec level 3 stuff other local dance colleges offer.  I reckon by 19, my daughter would at least have a realistic view about what might be possible and then she's still young enough to do A levels or some other course to get a 'proper job'... haha!

 

Of course, she's still got to get in and that may be decision made for her...

Edited November 14 by So-not-a-Dancemom
tag

[mum5678]

2 hours ago, So-not-a-Dancemom said:

Thanks all, I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

 

I think a bit similarly to @mum5678, that my daughter hasn't had a great time at secondary school.  She finds it stifling and tedious.  She just lives for her after school dance classes and school BTEC Dance.

 

I wouldn't want her to think I didn't 'let her' follow her dream.  I'm trying to be supportive and realistic and think that if she did get into the Hammond for example, at least they can do some teacher training qualifications too, in pilates I think, so she could get a job in the fitness industry.  I also think doing something you love is really important, if you possibly can.  I'm a social worker and hate my job but it's all I've qualified for, so I'm pretty stuck with it til retirement now!

 

I'm also pretty impressed that the Hammond diploma is a 3 year training from 16 at level 6 which is way better than the btec level 3 stuff other local dance colleges offer.  I reckon by 19, my daughter would at least have a realistic view about what might be possible and then she's still young enough to do A levels or some other course to get a 'proper job'... haha!

 

Of course, she's still got to get in and that may be decision made for her...

Mamaderuby raises a good point about it being different depending on whether you're going down the classical / everything else route... DS is focussed on classical so that was a factor in our decision, but not the overriding one. 

 

Quite a few schools offer the chance to do some teaching qualifications too - I think KS Dance certainly do as standard as part of their course (or at least did when we went to the audition)... think LSC might have had that as an option too, and at NBS you can do it as an 'add on' (they just pay the cost of the exam itself). If you can get to any of the open evenings / presentations to parents about the courses, that can be quite helpful in telling you more about the course itself and what it prepares them for. The other thing that is helpful (but we hadn't realised until after the decision was made!) is to go watch some of the school shows... gives you an idea of the standard and whether they're doing the kind of thing that your DD wants to be doing. 

 

DS has quite a few friends at Hammond who are all very happy there... interestingly he also has people who have left Hammond to join his course both last year and this year. I don't think they were unhappy there, they were just looking for something different in a course. From a parent perspective, Hammond has its own boarding facilities and they get fed there, there's someone to check their home at night etc. so that's quite reassuring. DS didn't have that and went into a flat in student halls (with 2 other 16 yr olds) - they managed brilliantly and really enjoyed the independence but it's a bit scary as a parent and definitely depends on the child. (Would not have let my eldest do that, but he wasn't as mature either emotionally or in general life capability.... still isn't and he's now been at Uni for 2 years!🤣)

 

It's worth going to as many auditions as you can as you definitely get a 'feel' for each school and whether you like it or not, and useful to see several to be able to make a comparison. DS had fixed ideas about where he wanted to go and the school he's at now wasn't even on his 'list ' to start with, but he literally came out in the lunch break saying "I love it, I'm decided", whereas there were other places that he just walked out at the end of the day saying "nope"! The audition experience is exhausting and expensive, but it's also very helpful in getting a sense of each place, and even if your DD does audition and gets a place, you don't have to accept it. 

[taxi4ballet]

There are far more options available at 18+ for musical theatre, and I would suggest that she does stay on at school and do A-levels. Aside from everything else, that would give her UCAS points and enable her to study dance at university level. Dance courses at local colleges from 16-18 tend to be at at level 3 (equivalent to A-level standard) and are relatively basic level industry-wise, so few people would go on from that into their career. The courses are intended as a stepping stone into full-time training at 18 really.

 

So to be honest, she would be better off doing A-levels and continuing at her current dance school. She could also look at workshops and holiday courses run by the professional dance colleges and places like Tring and Hammond. If she enjoys singing, she could join a local Rock Choir as well.

 

There are no guarantees of a career in the performing arts however good you are, and it really does pay to have a Plan B (and possibly a Plan C too).

 

[So-not-a-Dancemom]

Thanks @taxi4ballet that's why I'm encouraging her to look mostly at The Hammond as it does the level 6 diploma over 3 years.  She literally won't entertain doing A levels ... in all honesty, there's probably little I can do to sway her in any way.... so I guess I'm here looking for reassurance rather than advice!

[Mamaderuby]

21 minutes ago, So-not-a-Dancemom said:

Thanks @taxi4ballet that's why I'm encouraging her to look mostly at The Hammond as it does the level 6 diploma over 3 years.  She literally won't entertain doing A levels ... in all honesty, there's probably little I can do to sway her in any way.... so I guess I'm here looking for reassurance rather than advice!

If she is set on full time training at 16, definitely consider KS Dance and NBS as well as the Hammond. All great schools offering the level 6 diploma. 

The CDMT careers conference in February will have showcases and taster classes from these any many other accredited schools. Might be worth checking out.

Best of luck.

Edited November 14 by Mamaderuby
Addition

[Littleone]

I think the most important thing is that your daughter is happy and 2 years studying A levels when she would rather be studying PA could be hard for her. My daughter was offered a place on the Diploma at Hammond at 16 but she decided she would rather stay at her school for A Levels - that was her choice. She went on to do a  BA in Dance and MT in London and is now out the other side . She is auditioning alongside other Degree graduates and also Diploma graduates including from the Hammond. Success in auditions seems more about talent, skill set and ‘look’ than type of qualification. As taxi4ballet says , there are no guarantees and so I think it’s possible to worry too much about the outcome of the chosen pathway e.g the likelihood of getting paid performing work and it’s more important to enjoy the journey ! 
I also remind myself that many of my daughters peers who did non PA degrees are also currently happily working in jobs unrelated to the subject they studied. At 19 with a Diploma your daughter may go straight into a her dream performing job but if not she will be young enough to choose a different path .

 

[So-not-a-Dancemom]

Thanks @Mamaderuby I've just looked up that CDMT event in Feb and will look at booking that!  My daughter has auditions booked for LIPA, Liverpool Theatre School and The Hammond so far. I'd never heard of KS Dance and that's not far either.  NBS, well her least favourite discipline is ballet so I think that's a non starter, it's more commercial and contemporary that she is interested in.  A job on a cruise ship or the west end for her late teens early 20's would be amazing and what an amazing journey to be on.  I feel excited *for her* when I think about this and it makes me think that it's the right thing for her, rather than stuffy old A levels!!!

[joyofdance]

My daughter didn't want to do A levels on leaving school. She had had enough of academia and at the time thought that she wanted to dance as a career. She did two years on a dance course and realised that she had lost her love of dance and the dance world generally, and didn't want to go in to the industry. On finishing the course she applied for uni and is now doing a degree that she loves and will hopefully give her a good career. I suppose my point is, let her follow her dream, it may or may not lead to a career in dance but I doubt she will regret it. My daughter doesn't regret her initial decision to go to dance college nor does she regret giving up dance for something she now realises that she is more passionate about. Things have a way of working out, especially at 16.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

11 hours ago, So-not-a-Dancemom said:

Thanks @Mamaderuby I've just looked up that CDMT event in Feb and will look at booking that!  My daughter has auditions booked for LIPA, Liverpool Theatre School and The Hammond so far. I'd never heard of KS Dance and that's not far either.  NBS, well her least favourite discipline is ballet so I think that's a non starter, it's more commercial and contemporary that she is interested in.  A job on a cruise ship or the west end for her late teens early 20's would be amazing and what an amazing journey to be on.  I feel excited *for her* when I think about this and it makes me think that it's the right thing for her, rather than stuffy old A levels!!!

If West End is an aim then look at where most performers train. London Studio, Arts Ed, Laines, Urdang all have excellent dance courses and their jazz/commercial are very strong. Their dance alumni are all over the West End. Most offer diploma courses at 16 and degrees at 18. 
You can watch clips from Move It to see their dancers.

[Pointetoes]

My DD lived for her evening dance and music classes when she was at school. Although very bright (straight A* at GCSE) she couldn't wait to leave. We were lucky in that there were a few vocational 6th forms in the area all doing Extended Diplomas in dance or MT or acting. This gave her the equivalent to 3 A levels and UCAS points. It also gave her time to work out which direction she wanted to go. She always thought she would go down the contemporary route but was also always concerned about giving music up, she is a Cellist amongst over instruments. She graduated from GSA (Guildford School of Acting ) with a BA (Hons) Actor Musician .She found a course that incorporated every thing she loves - music, acting and dance. Until she went to her 6th form she had never acted. She has had some great jobs in the last 18mths from the West End to Lapland!

 

How far away are you from Manchester? Pendleton  6th Form College has a really good reputation. DD was at GSA with several people from there not all on the same course as her.

 

We had strong opposition from her school, friends and family but we knew she had to follow her heart. If it didn't work out after 6th form then we cross that bridge.

 

I will add my eldest daughter thought she was going to go down the music route and indeed started a degree in performance music with the view of going into RAF Music Service within 6 months she realised it wasn't for her much to everyones surprise. She took a few years out of education, re grouped and is now back at university studying to be an Orthoptist and very happy.

 

 

 

[Mamaderuby]

2 hours ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

If West End is an aim then look at where most performers train. London Studio, Arts Ed, Laines, Urdang all have excellent dance courses and their jazz/commercial are very strong. Their dance alumni are all over the West End. Most offer diploma courses at 16 and degrees at 18. 
You can watch clips from Move It to see their dancers.

Also consider Wilkes Academy and  the Brighton Academy, newer schools, building up excellent reputations. And SLP college in Leeds. SLP also offer level 6 diploma.

Edited November 15 by Mamaderuby
Addition

[mum5678]

16 hours ago, So-not-a-Dancemom said:

Thanks @Mamaderuby I've just looked up that CDMT event in Feb and will look at booking that!  My daughter has auditions booked for LIPA, Liverpool Theatre School and The Hammond so far. I'd never heard of KS Dance and that's not far either.  NBS, well her least favourite discipline is ballet so I think that's a non starter, it's more commercial and contemporary that she is interested in.  A job on a cruise ship or the west end for her late teens early 20's would be amazing and what an amazing journey to be on.  I feel excited *for her* when I think about this and it makes me think that it's the right thing for her, rather than stuffy old A levels!!!

The name 'NBS' is a bit misleading... it's very much not just a ballet school! They all do everything for the first year (Jazz, MT, Tap, Ballet, Acting, Singing and probably others that I have missed out) and then they split in the second year into either Classical focus or Jazz and MT focus for the remaining 2 years. On the basis of the shows both sides are very strong - definitely worth a look for the Jazz & MT side. (If you watch the Moulin Rouge documentary on BBC iPlayer it features one of their ex students!) With NBS (and I think KS) you can convert your diploma to degree at the end of. the course, which is good to know. LSC also have Jazz and MT strands so that might be worth exploring too, and theirs its a degree course, although a 'private' one (not sure if that's the correct term), so you can't necessarily get the same level of degree funding (although they do offer scholarships sometimes. 

Edited November 15 by mum5678
correction

[Pixiewoo]

5 hours ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

If West End is an aim then look at where most performers train. London Studio, Arts Ed, Laines, Urdang all have excellent dance courses and their jazz/commercial are very strong. Their dance alumni are all over the West End. Most offer diploma courses at 16 and degrees at 18. 
You can watch clips from Move It to see their dancers.

 

Bird College also offer a diploma course at 16 and degree course at 18.

[MCOS]

DD is at LSC, and loving every minute of it.   Wilkes was her very close second choice.  We were so impressed with Wilkes.  And they are really really strong on Commercial.  And have a diploma course.

 

Check out their MoveIt videos on YouTube.  They are fabulous!!

 

DD is Jazz girl who also loved ballet, which is why she choose LSC.  
 

LSC is mostly for degree students.  I can very highly recommend it.  But that requires A Levels or BTEC.

 

 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

7 hours ago, MCOS said:

DD is at LSC, and loving every minute of it.   Wilkes was her very close second choice.  We were so impressed with Wilkes.  And they are really really strong on Commercial.  And have a diploma course.

 

Check out their MoveIt videos on YouTube.  They are fabulous!!

 

DD is Jazz girl who also loved ballet, which is why she choose LSC.  
 

LSC is mostly for degree students.  I can very highly recommend it.  But that requires A Levels or BTEC.

 

 

LSC does 2 degree pathways- one at 18 which needs A levels and the other is for 16 yo- you do foundation degree for 2 years followed by top up. Dd did the latter from 16. My Dd did classical ballet but at LSC you can also choose to focus on contemporary, MT or jazz. Everyone at LSC has their own timetable.

[MCOS]

@Mummy twinkle toes thanks for that correction.  
 

OP, another piece of advice is to attend open days or intensives at colleges where your DD thinks she might be interested.  
And above all, audition at several places.  My DD made her choice based on audition.  

[Pixiewoo]

My DD also ruled out several places having attended Summer/Easter intensives at them. Others moved up the list. 

 

(Likewise, the way they were organised/ ability as the parent to actually talk to someone/ staff responding in a timely manner also factored in decisions)

[marmot2023]

On 14/11/2023 at 10:09, So-not-a-Dancemom said:

I'm the mum of a 15 year old who has danced for fun and dance school performances since she was 4. Ballet, tap, modern, jazz, the whole caboodle. 

 

She *loves* it but is a real perfectionist about it. She wants to do dance post 16 and has ambitions to 'perform on the west end'. 

 

I think she's good, certainly enthusiastic and has a great performance face.  But I'm worried about encouraging this as a career path. 

 

She is fairly bright but doesn't see herself doing anything else.  I guess, in all honesty, I'd like her to do A levels at the local 6th form.  But she won't entertain this.

 

She is auditioning for some local dance colleges, but is very keen on The Hammond Diploma course.

 

Has anyone else had a DD like this and they've had a positive experience/outcome of dance college?

 

Help please!

 

 

Hi So-not-a-dancemom, I don't have any words of wisdom but just wanted to say that I'm in the same boat and could have written this myself. I was initially worried about not having a plan B l (and doing A-levels) but there is very little I can do to persuade my DD down a route which involves anything other than dance - she's disengaged with school already and still has 6 months to go until GCSEs. We're just waiting for Tring audition results but not holding out much hope. She's also got an audition with Hammond so will see what happens. Good luck to your daughter. 

[Jan McNulty]

Hello @marmot2023 and welcome to the Forum!

[Peanut68]

It’s hard to let dreams lead the way but better to try to follow that path when passion is there than to look back & wonder ‘what if?’ Academic ambitions are far less time/youth dependant to achieve success & often passion for this may return later on & then studying will no doubt be happier & more successful! (I was given the chance to follow my dream as long as I took A levels too…. The latter diluted the dance content & frankly both ended up pretty much a failure…. This was in the 1980’s so different times….I did then - in my mid 20’s - return to education to take 2 more A levels in one year when I was keen to study & enjoyed doing them!) 
good luck all!

[glowlight]

@So-not-a-Dancemom and @marmot2023 - if your DCs are  set on leaving school at 16 and not doing A levels I think it would be a waste of everyone's time and energy to force them down this route.

 

My dd, although academically bright, was adamant she didn't want to stay on at school. We agreed that as long as she got at least 5 GCSEs including Maths and English (she got 9) she could go to dance school at 16 and not do A levels. It was the best thing for her.

 

After graduating from Northern Ballet School she worked for 6 years on cruise ships. 

 

She now has a successful career as an IT manager. Still no A Levels or degree, but that hasn't held her back. If she had decided she wanted to pursue a career which required further academic qualifications she would have gone to college.

[So-not-a-Dancemom]

Thanks everyone for their experience and advice.

 

I'm generally feeling that I need to let go a little bit of the outcome, let her follow her dream through whatever process...

 

Really appreciate the input from everyone.

 

Many thanks!

[2dancersmum]

My DD1 attended the Hammond as a young 16 year old. She took 2 A levels alongside the diploma - there is limited choice of A levels but very small classes and you don't miss any of the dance classes to attend (or at least didn't when she was there). Year groups had a mix of ages in them - plenty do the diploma at 18 (or even older) as well all the 16 year olds. My DD absolutely thrived there, especially compared to secondary school. She graduated on her 19th birthday and has worked as a professional dancer ever since, with just some time out in 2020. She's mostly done cruise ships - likes the travel and the variety of the shows she has performed in, all styles of dance including jazz, musical theatre, classical and modern ballet (en pointe), contemporary. If she is interested in the Hammond, keep a look out for their taster days as they really give a feel of the place and the style of the auditions. To echo another poster, it is good to do a number of auditions. There were a few places my DD came out of and said she would not feel comfortable there

[Mjdb]

I agree with mum5678, don't discard NBS just because of its name. There are  two path choices when students go into 2nd year. First year all students do the same classes then for years 2 & 3 either follow classical or jazz. My daughter is in her 3rd year & loves where she is. She started at 16 but each year can have a varied mix of ages. She was also very academic but her heart was in dance. 

She is where she wants to be & very happy.

 

[mum5678]

On 16/11/2023 at 16:56, marmot2023 said:

Hi So-not-a-dancemom, I don't have any words of wisdom but just wanted to say that I'm in the same boat and could have written this myself. I was initially worried about not having a plan B l (and doing A-levels) but there is very little I can do to persuade my DD down a route which involves anything other than dance - she's disengaged with school already and still has 6 months to go until GCSEs. We're just waiting for Tring audition results but not holding out much hope. She's also got an audition with Hammond so will see what happens. Good luck to your daughter. 

It's so hard when they just don't want to be at school and disengage. Our experience was that once DS had offers and knew that he was going he perked up considerably... might not work for all but did for him. I think the weight of the thought of school going on 'forever' (or so it seems) made it worse so when that was lifted it helped. We did say that he could only go at 16 if he had good enough results to carry him through whatever happens next (given that he wouldn't have A levels) - that was the condition that we, as parents put on him going away at 16. We didn't put a number / grade on it, I just said I needed to know that he'd got the best he could.  I wasn't that fussed about the grade itself, it just helped him focus on the fact that if this was all he was leaving school with, it really had to be the best it could be. We had a hairy few months up to and just after xmas, and then when the dance offers started coming in he started to relax a little and focus. Once he'd accepted his place, that weight was lifted and he was quite happy to just focus on academic for the last few months. Also, having previously been a secondary school teacher, you'd be amazed at what they can pull out of the bag in the last few months! I'd say get some auditions in as soon as you can.... once they start to get a picture in their heads of what might happen next year I think it really helps... the unknown is always harder to deal with and whilst the unknown is VERY much unknown during the audition months, the sooner that gets ironed out, the easier it gets to see the way forwards. 

[mum5678]

On 18/11/2023 at 21:23, Mjdb said:

I agree with mum5678, don't discard NBS just because of its name. There are  two path choices when students go into 2nd year. First year all students do the same classes then for years 2 & 3 either follow classical or jazz. My daughter is in her 3rd year & loves where she is. She started at 16 but each year can have a varied mix of ages. She was also very academic but her heart was in dance. 

She is where she wants to be & very happy.

 

😊 They're a lovely bunch at NBS aren't they.  I've genuinely lost count of the number of times I've felt so grateful that that's the school he chose! 

 

If anyone is struggling with applications for there this year, I've heard that the BIMM admissions portal is not being particularly cooperative so it's worth emailing the school directly and they will help. 

[Mjdb]

32 minutes ago, mum5678 said:

😊 They're a lovely bunch at NBS aren't they.  I've genuinely lost count of the number of times I've felt so grateful that that's the school he chose! 

 

If anyone is struggling with applications for there this year, I've heard that the BIMM admissions portal is not being particularly cooperative so it's worth emailing the school directly and they will help. 

 

They are a great bunch ! My dd has loved every minute of being there. In-between all the  learning & doing hard work they also have fun, which for mean  means a lot & is important too. 

Their last outside venture at the Denise Walsh charity gala was a success & again good time had by all. 

 

I'm also grateful it's where her path led her to. Can't believe it's her last year. Can't wait to see what the future holds ! 

Mj

[Crystaltips]

On 14/11/2023 at 10:09, So-not-a-Dancemom said:

I'm the mum of a 15 year old who has danced for fun and dance school performances since she was 4. Ballet, tap, modern, jazz, the whole caboodle. 

 

She *loves* it but is a real perfectionist about it. She wants to do dance post 16 and has ambitions to 'perform on the west end'. 

 

I think she's good, certainly enthusiastic and has a great performance face.  But I'm worried about encouraging this as a career path. 

 

She is fairly bright but doesn't see herself doing anything else.  I guess, in all honesty, I'd like her to do A levels at the local 6th form.  But she won't entertain this.

 

She is auditioning for some local dance colleges, but is very keen on The Hammond Diploma course.

 

Has anyone else had a DD like this and they've had a positive experience/outcome of dance college?

 

Help please!

 

 

In a word yes! My dd at 15 was adamant that she didn’t want to do A levels. Had I forced her she would have certainly got bad grades that would not have helped her career. She went into full time dance training and completed it. For various reasons discussed elsewhere she decided at 20 years to go back to A levels. As she had never started a course it was still free and she found an FE college that accepted up to age 24. Wind forward and she is now in her second year of a science degree. One size doesn’t fit all.