Opera Ignoramus

[alison]

On 27/09/2023 at 09:37, Fonty said:

Although I go to the ballet frequently, I admit I know nothing whatsoever about opera and have never been to one at the ROH.  I have just received an email with the Winter programme, and it contains some operas I have actually heard of.  Which would people recommend for an opera newcomer?  Given the price of tickets I can only go to one.  

 

It would seem sensible, then, to pick something which isn't on at the cinema.

 

22 hours ago, Fonty said:

I would prefer an opera that is a) tuneful and b) not too long.  The operatic equivalent of La Fille Mal Gardee if there is something like that.  Sitting through 4 hours plus of Wagner doesn't sound like my cup of tea, to be honest.  

 

I thought that, but I managed to sit entranced through Lohengrin (not the current production, admittedly) ...

[Dawnstar]

16 hours ago, Irmgard said:

I thoroughly recommend "Hansel and Gretel".  I saw this new production before lockdown and it is slightly subversive but also utterly enchanting - and the music is gorgeous throughout.  If you go to Elisir, you will realise that you recognise a lot of the music as John Lanchbery used it (and bits from Barber of Seville) when putting together the score for La Fille mal gardee 😊.

 

May I ask how gruesome the current H&G production is? I saw the previous one when it was new & barely made it through Act III. When I saw the pdd from Fille at the Diamond Celebration I was surprised to recognise the music. I imagine most people on this forum encountered Fille first but I first saw L'elisir back in 2005 & have yet to see Fille (I want to see it, it's just the RB doesn't seem to want to do it at the moment).

[Irmgard]

4 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

 

May I ask how gruesome the current H&G production is? I saw the previous one when it was new & barely made it through Act III. When I saw the pdd from Fille at the Diamond Celebration I was surprised to recognise the music. I imagine most people on this forum encountered Fille first but I first saw L'elisir back in 2005 & have yet to see Fille (I want to see it, it's just the RB doesn't seem to want to do it at the moment).

I don't remember it being particularly gruesome but it is very cleverly done.  

[MAB]

Not gruesome at all.

[Timmie]

On 28/09/2023 at 01:33, Irmgard said:

... If you go to Elisir, you will realise that you recognise a lot of the music as John Lanchbery used it (and bits from Barber of Seville) when putting together the score for La Fille mal gardee 😊.

 

Thanks for mentioning that 🙂. It probably explains why I kept getting mind’s eye images of Marianela Nunez flitting across the stage during last night’s Elisir!

[Emeralds]

For Winter Season, probably Hansel and  Gretel is the most cheery in terms of the happy ending (the baddie, the witch who kills children, dies). Both casts have excellent singers (but not anyone so super famous that the prices are astronomical). It's a good production- neither "aimed only at little kids" nor a modern reboot only suitable for over 18s with a tough constitution! Lovely music by Humperdinck - my favourite bit is Evening Prayer sung by Hansel (usually portrayed by a female singer) and Gretel. 

[alison]

I'd already booked it  

[CCL]

Fonty, I too was an opera newbie last year (I still am, really). I’d seen a couple of Carmens  and Bohemes previously but didn’t really think it was my ‘thing’. Seeing La Traviata last year changed me completely- I thought it was thrilling and since then I’ve seen several more, namely: Madama Butterfly, Cav/Pag, Tosca, Tannhauser, Turandot, Aida, Le Nozze de Figaro and Das Rheingold (the latter was the live cine cast). I have genuinely loved every single one. I’d recommend Cav/Pag, which is at the ROH some time before Christmas. Do let us know if/when you go!

Edited October 7, 2023 by CCL

[Ondine]

On 27/09/2023 at 18:28, Timmie said:

I’ve also quite surprisingly discovered that I love Handel. Jephtha is coming up so that may be worth a look.

 

 

[Ondine]

There is a Jeptha Insights this evening and yes it is also livestreamed via the ROH Youtube channel (linked) so I know what I am doing tonight...

 

 

 

 

[Ondine]

The Insights for Jephtha is here.  HUGELY recommended!  (I must stop writing Jeptha which I know it isn't!!)

 

 

 

[Ondine]

This is currently being livestreamed too.  Worth a catchup.

 

 

[Emeralds]

Re: Jephtha- I know this is being slightly pedantic,  but it's actually not an opera of Handel's but one of his oratorio, ie it is the same genre as his Messiah rather than his  Giulio Cesare, Agrippina and Alcina (the latter two being recent box office successes for ROH). Some directors and opera companies do stage Handel's oratorios as operas (recent productions include Theodora at ROH Main Stage and Susanna at ROH Linbury, Saul at Glyndebourne, Semele is nowadays staged more often as an opera than as an oratorio i - with variable success). 

 

Allan Clayton is a brilliant Jephtha and one of the reasons why it is being staged at ROH is that ROH (then called Covent Garden Theatre) was the site of the premiere of Jephtha but hasn't been revived or performed again there since.

 

Not quite sure why it isn't being performed in concert format like Attila was last year. Anyway, if any forum member is going, it will be interesting to hear if the opera format is enjoyable. Tickets at various pricrs still available. Allan Clayton has received glowing reviews for his performance. 

[Timmie]

On 11/11/2023 at 21:12, Emeralds said:

...if any forum member is going, it will be interesting to hear if the opera format is enjoyable...

 

I did see Jephtha and unfortunately I was somewhat underwhelmed. The singing was nice enough and the orchestra was clear and crisp but I didn’t feel much drama, the oratorio nature of the work may explain this. I did very much enjoy Alcina last year and Arminio this year so whilst I am an opera newbie I do love Handel, just not this.

[Emeralds]

8 hours ago, Timmie said:

 

I did see Jephtha and unfortunately I was somewhat underwhelmed. The singing was nice enough and the orchestra was clear and crisp but I didn’t feel much drama, the oratorio nature of the work may explain this. I did very much enjoy Alcina last year and Arminio this year so whilst I am an opera newbie I do love Handel, just not this.

Yes, I'm afraid my impression was that I would come away with what you thought, Timmie. It's a great cast but I don't like this staging. It's not terrible or hideous, but I  just have memories of the brilliant recent Proms performance (in an oratorio concert staging) where Allan Clayton and his colleagues could do more without being encumbered by the staging, sets and costumes. Sometimes timing is key (perhaps 2-3 years too early), and not over egging the pudding. 

[MAB]

Seems i enjoyed it more tthan others here.  My companion wasn't impressed when he first saw it from the stalls but claims the staging  works better at a distance.  The sound is better in the amphi anyway.  Not a great production, but how often do we see one of those at Covent Garden?  I thought it wasn't bad at all considering it isn't actually an opera.  The choruses are in my opinion among the best Handel wrote.  A terrific role foe Allan Clayton.

[Scheherezade]

Well I’ll certainly be at a distance when I see it a week on Friday so  hoping for the best - or the best that can be hoped for with the current staging preferences. 

[Ondine]

 

Not Jephtha but a little more of the glorious countertenor voice of Cameron Shahbazi and Handel (official link):

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ondine

[Scheherezade]

6 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

Not Jephtha but a little more of the glorious countertenor voice of Cameron Shahbazi and Handel (official link):

 

 

 

Gorgeous voice! Looking forward to hearing him on Friday. 

[Ondine]

23 hours ago, Scheherezade said:

Gorgeous voice! Looking forward to hearing him on Friday.

 

I'm very envious. He comes across as a really caring person also. His T shirt slogan,  he organised a benefit concert for Woman.Life.Freedom for human rights in Iran.

 

For sheer beauty of voice, you couldn’t have asked for better soloists. In the title role of the Israelite hero, Allan Clayton provided his usual warmth, enfolding one in a comfort blanket of sound. As his brother Zebul, Brindley Sherratt gave a silk-smooth bass. Jennifer France was perhaps the pick of them all as Iphis, with sweetness of tone all the way up to the glittering top of her register. Alice Coote matched Clayton for warmth as his wife, Storgé; countertenor Cameron Shahbazi, as Iphis' lover Hamor, impressed with sinuous phrasing and timbre, just as he did in the recent Picture a day like this. All of these singers gave splendid demonstrations of the ebb and flow of Handelian phrasing and of the change of expression between repeats of their da capo arias. The Orchestra of the Royal Opera House and Royal Opera Chorus also produced consistently beautiful sounds.

 

https://bachtrack.com/review-handel-jephtha-mears-cummings-clayton-france-coote-sherratt-shahbazi-royal-opera-november-2023

 

More Handel.  I can never have enough Handel, especially when sung like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scheherezade]

Not that my my views can help anyone decide whether to stay away or attend this Jephtha run since it came to a close last night, but I thoroughly enjoyed this revival: superb singing across the board, the chorus deftly choreographed and in fine voice, and the staging worked for me too. Yes, it was stylised - and the signature Oliver Mears’ tableaux (which I do like) apart, restricted to austere sliding walls marked with biblical quotes - but I felt that this fitted the subject matter and was in keeping with the nature of an oratorio for which, for me, too much realism can sometimes jar. Perhaps it worked better from rear amphitheatre seats, who knows, but last night it certainly worked for me. 

[Sim]

On 19/11/2023 at 22:19, Ondine said:

 

I'm very envious. He comes across as a really caring person also. His T shirt slogan,  he organised a benefit concert for Woman.Life.Freedom for human rights in Iran.

 

For sheer beauty of voice, you couldn’t have asked for better soloists. In the title role of the Israelite hero, Allan Clayton provided his usual warmth, enfolding one in a comfort blanket of sound. As his brother Zebul, Brindley Sherratt gave a silk-smooth bass. Jennifer France was perhaps the pick of them all as Iphis, with sweetness of tone all the way up to the glittering top of her register. Alice Coote matched Clayton for warmth as his wife, Storgé; countertenor Cameron Shahbazi, as Iphis' lover Hamor, impressed with sinuous phrasing and timbre, just as he did in the recent Picture a day like this. All of these singers gave splendid demonstrations of the ebb and flow of Handelian phrasing and of the change of expression between repeats of their da capo arias. The Orchestra of the Royal Opera House and Royal Opera Chorus also produced consistently beautiful sounds.

 

https://bachtrack.com/review-handel-jephtha-mears-cummings-clayton-france-coote-sherratt-shahbazi-royal-opera-november-2023

 

More Handel.  I can never have enough Handel, especially when sung like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gorgeous performances from both of them, and the orchestra.  Is it filmed in Moscow?  Such a shame to see so many empty seats.  They deserved a full house.

[Ondine]

1 hour ago, Sim said:

Is it filmed in Moscow? 

 

Russian State Chamber Orchestra conducted by Christopher Moulds Tchaikovsky Concert Hall  Moscow, Russia Recorded live on September 15, 2021

 

 

[Dawnstar]

Yesterday eveing I felt like an Opera Ignoramus because I kept on forgetting to look at the surtitles for Cavelleria Rusticana. I've seen so much ballet at the ROH recently, while not making the last 2 opera I had booked due to train strikes, that I'm out of practice with needing to look at surtitles rather than just at the stage! By Pagliaccia I'd got back into remembering to look.

[JennyTaylor]

I'm also an opera ignoramus but have been trying to education myself by attending Friends' rehearsals.  I only go to ones where the composer/ music will give me a chance of enjoying myself. 

So far I have been to: 

Tosca - loved it, felt I had seen something special. 

Aida  - loved the music but hated the North Korean production and the costumes. Aida looked like a factory worked or a cleaner. 

La Boheme - really disappointing.  Damp squib is an understatement. I couldn't relate to any of the characterisations and the scenery was super clunky. 

Madame Butterfly (today) - jury still out, but probably 2nd ranked below Tosca. 

 

So, that's 4 really famous operas and I'm not doing too well, which is actually quite disappointing as I would really like to gain enjoyment from this art form. 

 

I'm wondering why this could be in comparison to ballet where there is no verbal interaction. 

 

1) I'm not familiar with the music so probably need to hear it several times more

2) There's very little action.  Compared, for example with a Manon ballet, when there's so much going on it's hard to know where to look, I find opera very static. 

3) Apart from Aida, the casts are small and there's very little group singing.  I loved the power of the chorus singing in Aida, so long as I closed my eyes and didn't think about their costumes. I think I expected more group singing in general.  Is this cost cutting??  

4) The scenery is very traditional and flat.  It was quite pretty today for Butterfly but in general I'd be looking for better effects.  In La Boheme I could see the snow machine in the roof and also the backs of the scenery had directional markings on them. Irritating. 

5) I don't seem to be moved by two people singing to each other.  Wish I was. The lady next to me was in tears at the end of Butterfly today and told me it always made her feel that way.  I didn't feel moved at all, rather very annoyed with the behaviour of Pinkerton.         

6) There is far more action in a ballet - there has to be, so perhaps my expectations are unreal.     

 

I will persevere further.  Perhaps I should just go back to Gilbert and Sullivan, which I love.  

[Dawnstar]

@JennyTaylor I started regularly operagoing in 2004 but I've never really got on with either Butterfly or Boheme. In both of them I find some of the music glorious but the leading characters annoying. So it may be that you don't click with those particular operas either. Tosca is my favourite Puccini opera, partly because it's one of his few operas where the lead tenor character is actually a decent person.

 

2) There are some directors who like to put in loads of extraneous stage business so it's not always static, it really depends on the production. The pieces you've seen so far are all tragedies & it's often comedies which have more stage business. A pity the ROH aren't doing something like La Fille du Regiment this season or I'd suggest you tried that for an example of a pretty busy production. I suppose fundamentally opera being more static comes down to ballet being all about expression through movement whereas expression through singing is easier for the singers if they can stand still.

 

3) I flipping well hope not given the ROH employs a full time chorus so I'd be amazed if they cut any choruses! I'd say that Puccini was a composer who tended to using choruses fairly sparingly. Tosca Act I only (apart from offstage), though I do find that one very effective as long as you've got a Scarpia who can make himself heard properly over it. Butterfly's Humming Chorus is very well-known but I confess I personally find it a little dull. Boheme I feel the chorus in Act II is more about peopling the stage than having an amazing musical impact, though that might just be me.

 

4) Again, this varies considerably by production. The 3 Puccini productions you've seen are 3 of the ROH's most traditional productions at present. Personally I prefer more traditional opera productions, and therefore have seen a lot less opera in recent seasons as the ROH have replaced more traditional productions of many rep pieces with more modern ones, but many people prefer the modern ones. The current Don Giovanni production for instance uses loads of projections rather than literal scenery.

 

5) I think most people feel that way about Pinkerton. I've seen the tenor be pantomime booed at the curtain call before, at Opera Holland Park. 

[Geoff]

Don’t worry @JennyTaylor - it’s not you, it’s them. I will go further than @Dawnstar The issue is not really “traditional” or not, the issue is that the shows you have gone to so far are not really very good. The Bohème is poorly done (replacing a much loved and powerful production); the Aida is a flop (I will be surprised if it comes back again now that it has been revived, unless ROH books a world class cast); the Butterfly is no more than ok; only the Tosca will do (and there are better productions of that opera around).

 

Then there is a different dynamic as to how many times one needs to see an opera to feel comfortable with it. Ballets often give you a lot quite quickly, and this deepens as one goes back and sees it again. An opera, in my experience, can be slower work. The first time one finds something in it one likes, and then that gives you an access point on which to build with later visits. Listening to an opera before seeing it for the first time is always worth doing, as is doing some reading. 
 

The whole opera thing is so risky, it is a rare experience when it all comes together - the voices, the orchestra, the staging and the work - but when it does, it is unbeatable, which is why we keep going back, with fingers crossed. This is a difficult era, as there far too many talentless people (who seem to hate music or at least not know much about it or trust it) putting on operas but there are still a few times a year when the experience is really exciting.
 

What are planning to try next, would you like some tips?

[Lizbie1]

12 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

@JennyTaylor I started regularly operagoing in 2004 but I've never really got on with either Butterfly or Boheme. In both of them I find some of the music glorious but the leading characters annoying. So it may be that you don't click with those particular operas either. Tosca is my favourite Puccini opera, partly because it's one of his few operas where the lead tenor character is actually a decent person.

 

2) There are some directors who like to put in loads of extraneous stage business so it's not always static, it really depends on the production. The pieces you've seen so far are all tragedies & it's often comedies which have more stage business. A pity the ROH aren't doing something like La Fille du Regiment this season or I'd suggest you tried that for an example of a pretty busy production. I suppose fundamentally opera being more static comes down to ballet being all about expression through movement whereas expression through singing is easier for the singers if they can stand still.

 

3) I flipping well hope not given the ROH employs a full time chorus so I'd be amazed if they cut any choruses! I'd say that Puccini was a composer who tended to using choruses fairly sparingly. Tosca Act I only (apart from offstage), though I do find that one very effective as long as you've got a Scarpia who can make himself heard properly over it. Butterfly's Humming Chorus is very well-known but I confess I personally find it a little dull. Boheme I feel the chorus in Act II is more about peopling the stage than having an amazing musical impact, though that might just be me.

 

4) Again, this varies considerably by production. The 3 Puccini productions you've seen are 3 of the ROH's most traditional productions at present. Personally I prefer more traditional opera productions, and therefore have seen a lot less opera in recent seasons as the ROH have replaced more traditional productions of many rep pieces with more modern ones, but many people prefer the modern ones. The current Don Giovanni production for instance uses loads of projections rather than literal scenery.

 

5) I think most people feel that way about Pinkerton. I've seen the tenor be pantomime booed at the curtain call before, at Opera Holland Park. 

 

I second all of this, especially the bit about never really getting on with Boheme.

 

And Pinkerton is plainly an awful person - something which seems to have escaped those who attack it for its perceived imperialism.

[JennyTaylor]

Thank you so much @Dawnstar and @Geoff   Very reassuring to know it's not just me. The context you both provide is really helpful. I might have a look at Streaming options to see if I can enhance my experiences via that medium.    

[Dawnstar]

11 hours ago, Geoff said:

Then there is a different dynamic as to how many times one needs to see an opera to feel comfortable with it. Ballets often give you a lot quite quickly, and this deepens as one goes back and sees it again. An opera, in my experience, can be slower work. The first time one finds something in it one likes, and then that gives you an access point on which to build with later visits. Listening to an opera before seeing it for the first time is always worth doing, as is doing some reading. 
 

The whole opera thing is so risky, it is a rare experience when it all comes together - the voices, the orchestra, the staging and the work - but when it does, it is unbeatable, which is why we keep going back, with fingers crossed. This is a difficult era, as there far too many talentless people (who seem to hate music or at least not know much about it or trust it) putting on operas but there are still a few times a year when the experience is really exciting.

 

While I agree on the listening & reading as a general principle, I think sometimes operas can get you immediately. That certainly happened to me the first time I saw Der Rosenkavalier, which was also the first time I visited the ROH. I absolutely adored it immediately. I then did a lot of listening & reading afterwards. It's still my favourite opera. Though I was extremely lucky that that was back in 2004 when the ROH still had the gorgeous, period Schlesinger production. I often wonder if I would still have loved opera if I had started going now, 20 years later, when there are so few beautiful opera productions left.

 

I'd say a few times a year is extremely good going. I might get that once a year nowadays if I'm lucky, given how few productions there are on that I want to see. This season there are only 3 operas I wanted to see at the ROH. My attempt to see L'Elisir D'Amore was knocked out by a train strike, I saw Cav & Pag, and I intend to see Andrea Chenier.

 

2 hours ago, JennyTaylor said:

Thank you so much @Dawnstar and @Geoff   Very reassuring to know it's not just me. The context you both provide is really helpful. I might have a look at Streaming options to see if I can enhance my experiences via that medium.    

 

Trying videos is a good idea, not least because if you're not enjoying something you can stop part-way through without feeling as guilty as leaving a live performance! There's the ROH stream but from what I can see that doesn't really have that many performances & they're mostly fairly recent ones. I'd suggest trying the Metropolitan Opera which has a huge back-catalogue available to stream on subscription. During the lockdowns they showed an opera a day for free & I reckon I must have watched well over 100 performances, filmed over several decades, and that was only part of their catalogue. You could watch an Aida actually that's set in Ancient Egypt, rather than in North Korea!

[alison]

On 11/03/2024 at 23:47, Dawnstar said:

@JennyTaylor I started regularly operagoing in 2004 but I've never really got on with either Butterfly or Boheme.

 

I'd say the same.  I've seen a few productions of Boheme, even the RO's previous one, and not liked it.  I haven't seen the RO Butterfly, but saw ENO's many years ago and remember saying that I felt as though there was a pane of glass between me and the action on stage.  Totally unmoved.

[Lizbie1]

9 minutes ago, alison said:

 

I'd say the same.  I've seen a few productions of Boheme, even the RO's previous one, and not liked it.  I haven't seen the RO Butterfly, but saw ENO's many years ago and remember saying that I felt as though there was a pane of glass between me and the action on stage.  Totally unmoved.

 

This is very much a personal opinion but by and large I find Puccini quite a "cold" composer - I can often sense him trying to pull my strings.

 

Tosca and Turandot are the best of his IMO: Tosca because it's so well plotted and because the heroine is never presented as an innocent; Turandot because it's just so impressive - the Act 1 finale is an tour de force - and because we aren't expected to shed too many tears over Liu, the obligatory "victim": the plot moves on pretty swiftly. I must say though that I'm sick to death of Nessun dorma!

[Mary]

I really empathise with this, as someone who is not a musician or an expert in any way at all.....it is so much an investment of time and money and sometimes a bit of an effort - but I think worth pursuing. Just occasionally you have such a fabulous experience that it's life-changing and makes it all worthwhile, as I did once with the glorious old Tosca production,  and Nina Stemme in Tristan,  and also nights of complete enjoyment and fun- Jonathan Miller's Mikado,  -oh and a few more. And some that left me cold or fainting with boredom.

 

Worth trying the Met live screenings in cinema as well, at least they do large-scale grand productions still which can have a great impact in the cinema.

 

Also maybe try to catch English Touring Opera who are really good and starting a new tour about now I think.

 

Finally, try some Mozart! If the production is not attractive you can always shut your eyes, the music is pretty divine.

 

Dawnstar -  I remember the old Rosenkavalier too, that was so outstandingly  beautiful.  I once treated myself to a balcony ticket and so very glad I did.  Nowadays it's the slips.