Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[taxi4ballet]

15 hours ago, Ondine said:

Why does being British matter?  As I said above, the Royal Ballet has always been an international company.  I'm not sure restricting the schools to an intake of only those with a British passport will solve other issues.

 

Has anyone any information about how many French students are taken into the POB school each year, how many move from the POB school into the company each year, and how many of those who don't make it find work elsewhere?

Why does it matter? Because the British taxpayer is stumping up millions to fund students training at various vocational schools through MDS and Dada funding, and a large number of those students do not complete their training, not because they aren't good enough, but because they are failed by the system.

 

As a taxpayer, I want to know why.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

15 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

Has anyone any information about how many French students are taken into the POB school each year, how many move from the POB school into the company each year, and how many of those who don't make it find work elsewhere

 

 
If this is published information, I’ve never come across it though I haven’t actively looked for it. I suspect it’s an overwhelming majority. I personally know a couple of students who went there who confirm the demographic of the school is majority French.  From the youngest years through to the final year. There are a few competition winners, not many, and often in the older years only. Same with those progressing from school to company. Majority French, with a very small number of graduates from overseas. If Wikipedia were to be believed (and I would advise taking this with a grain of salt), it states 95% of those admitted to the company are French.

[Ondine]

The POB system is worth looking at via the website, for year on year admission, from aged eight with compulsory part time boarding, for an initial six months training.  For those youngsters there also has to be a responsible adult living close by.

 

https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/artists/ballet-school/admission

 

The intake is a year at a time, with a competitive exam to move on to another year. No idea what happens to those who don't pass a year though they can go away and re-apply another year.

 

What I'd be interested to know is what percentage of those who train there actually make it through to pass the competition to join the corps each year, though I believe that dancers in the POB are also compulsorily 'retired' quite early to make room for those arriving at the 'bottom' of the company? I also wonder what happens to those students who don't make the corps.  However, given the 'sifting out' which happens all the way through presumably those who do make it this far are well trained and good dancers.

 

I'm assuming all this is state funded, which not all students at the RBS are.

 

I don't think the POB has ever been an international company in the way the British companies are.

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

My dd had a relatively happy time at WL with a couple of wonderful and talented teachers ( one in particular) who were encouraging annd supportive and bringing out the best in my dd. However, that was not the case for every student which my daughter witnessed. And that’s what this thread is about. Those who are damaged unnecessarily. And it is unnecessary. There doesn’t need to be any assessments if the AD made it his job to know his students by teaching them. Not knowing a student’s name after 5 years is plainly not acceptable and frankly terrible management. If students were treated as individuals, collaborators in their own training they would know themselves, that staying at RBS would not be productive for them. It wouldn’t be some traumatic shock because it would have been discussed in a healthy, positive respectful manner long before the event and students who’s best interests lay elsewhere would have been supported- not just in one, one off meeting, but along the journey, building their relationships with other schools, other forms of dance, choreography, teaching etc. 

No one needs to be told to leave the year before graduation. There are no replacements in that year so why? 
Why? Because the graduation year is the representative year for RBS and they can’t show anybody who doesn’t meet the standard. Well, that’s fair but part of that standard is their own teaching and they have to be, at least partly accountable for that. My dd wasted several years being demolished by one teacher and regularly told her ‘ basics’ weren’t there by another.

I would ask ‘ why were the basics not there after 3 years at WL?  Especially as when she auditioned for the school the AD asked her  in the interview for yr9 ’Where did that beautiful technique come from’ ? So where did that beautiful technique go? That is a question. Dd would have accepted she was not to be ‘ shown’ to the world if she could have stayed and finished her degree. She would have traded being invisible to finish her degree.
Academic work was always important to her and she worked hard for 2 years to get a degree.

The school will tell you they help you after assessment. I would say that’s an extremely generous spin on what actually happens. For a start, they have never bothered to get to know you so they have no idea what you want to do and while they will put you in a studio and film an audition sequence for the schools you’ve written on your list, it is deeply impersonal and its obvious it’s just procedure.

There are no meetings with the AD, as I said, he remains an enigma.

I also know that after been assessed out students are expected to hang about the studios while others are in rehearsals for their performances. Not a nice place to be or a useful place to be.

So the fact that my daughter had a reasonably happy time for some of the years at RBS does not change the fact that the core practices and values do not connect to healthy practices.

[LinMM]

Have some posts been hidden here? 

[Ondine]

8 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Dd would have accepted she was not to be ‘ shown’ to the world if she could have stayed and finished her degree. She would have traded being invisible to finish her degree.
Academic work was always important to her and she worked hard for 2 years to get a degree.

 

This too is shocking.  I simply don't know what to say.  This means an academic pathway to dance related career is shut off too.

 

I'd have thought a student attaining a degree could be chalked up as a success to the school.

 

It's good to have all this out in the open really.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LinMM]

I don’t know why my post is not visible so will post again later unless hear otherwise! 

[Lindyloo]

There was a time, until mid-late 80’s I think, that the RBC consisted of dancers who were from Commonwealth countries and had trained at the RBS.

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

Some posts on this thread have been hidden while the content of them is considered by the Moderation Team.

[LinMM]

Okay thanks Mods

I think I may be able to see why so I will post just the second half of my post referring to  16/1 7 admissions later on. 

[Pas de Quatre]

Recently there have been reports in the press that the Government is going to do an "audit" of Universities with high drop out rates and/or graduates not getting degree level jobs.  It is beginning to look as though some of the dance degrees ought to be included in this investigation.

[Ondine]

25 minutes ago, Lindyloo said:

There was a time, until mid-late 80’s I think, that the RBC consisted of dancers who were from Commonwealth countries and had trained at the RBS.

 

I don't think all dancers in the RB companies came from Commonwealth countries,  and though there was a time when I think all had to spend a short time at the school it was a nod rather than years of training.

[Lindyloo]

It was the case. (There may have been the odd exception - but probably due to parental citizenship??) It wasn’t necessary to have trained at WL and there was a much larger intake at 16 years old. There used to be 3 female classes of approx 12 students in the first and second year at US.  One class was made up of WL graduates, and the other 2 classes were UK trained and a mixture of overseas students - Australian, South African, Canadian, American, Japanese etc. In the second year, what had been the WL graduate class became the Graduate class, which in the early 70’s was renamed the Company Extras class, as the students would be working more closely with the company. Formal assessments at US were once a year and in the first year there would be some assessing out. The company directors would watch and students would be selected for the Graduate class. It was predominately a 2 year course, with a 3rd year class for students needing an extra year and also overseas students. Occasionally the company would offer a contract to a student after a year or before completion of 2nd year, depending on available contracts. I think Gailene Stock (?) reduced the number of female classes from 3 to 1, therefore reducing the number of places available by approx 2/3’s. This, over the years has clearly had a significant impact on available places at US for WL students. Even more so now that the ‘net’ is cast much more widely and the international competition stage has become so enticing for AD’s world wide. This is where the box ticking comes in regarding ‘trained at’….

[mart]

It was part of the charter that only British or Commonwealth dancers could join the RB ,that is why Richard Cragun trained at the RBS but as an American could not join and went to Stuttgart ballet . When Alain Dubreuil moved to the RB from Festival Ballet he had to get a British passport.

i don’t know when it changed perhaps when the UK joined the EU

[BaffledBalletMum]

5 hours ago, Kate_N said:

 

Yes, I think this is worth thinking about. Think of all the young children who play football or netball quite intensively. They are not all on the national team ... 

 

Another important difference is that in sport an athlete scores more goals, achieves a faster time, or wins more matches.  What makes ballet "successful" is largely subjective and appearance driven.  

[Pas de Quatre]

I remember it too as Lindyloo describes.  In the 1970s before mass auditions became the norm, dancers looking for jobs would do the audition tour, travelling round European theatres and joining in class as an audition.  RBS dancers who weren't being taken into the company also did this - one tended to bump into each other along the way!

 

At one point there was also the Craftsman course,two years I believe,  which was one of the Upper School classes.  Those dancers were being trained as future teachers, not as performers.  I am not sure of the years this existed, late 1970s or 80s.

 

My nephew is a top level swimmer, and all the way through, although there are meets and competitions which are great to win, the most important thing for progress are the times, improving your personal best is the goal.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Pas de Quatre
Add para

[BaffledBalletMum]

3 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Dd would have accepted she was not to be ‘ shown’ to the world if she could have stayed and finished her degree. She would have traded being invisible to finish her degree.
Academic work was always important to her and she worked hard for 2 years to get a degree.

 

This is such an important part of the loss. Do you mind sharing how being assessed out impacted her studies? Assuming she was in US. Did it interrupt A-levels? Did it prevent her from completing the diploma and/or the Bachelors that is available.  

[Ondine]

From 2008 on Ballet Alert.  It's related to this discussion.

 

https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/28293-british-schools-foreign-born-dancers/ 

 

I know Nureyev was a 'permanent guest artist' and maybe that's how the company employed those not British born or from the Commonwealth?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lindyloo]

Yes, Pas de Quatre, the Craftsman’s Course was definitely in the 70’s. I don’t know when it ended. The course ran separately from the dancer’s course. 

 

[Ruby Foo]

30 minutes ago, BaffledBalletMum said:

This is such an important part of the loss. Do you mind sharing how being assessed out impacted her studies? Assuming she was in US. Did it interrupt A-levels? Did it prevent her from completing the diploma and/or the Bachelors that is available.  

  I will pm you if that’s okay?

[mart]

Ondine is quite right if you were foreign you were a guest artist 

 

[LinMM]

What I’m not quite getting is that although I can understand that for the White Lodge students as they are so much younger it might be difficult to realistically predict future outcomes however with entry at 16/17 into Upper School where potential is much easier to see  I find it harder to understand why the powers that be still have to assess out students so recently chosen!   It should not be too difficult at that age to predict who at least has a fighting chance to get into a Ballet Company …..even if it isn’t necessarily the RB. 
It does seem a bit extreme to ask somebody to leave in the very final year(unless of course some serious injury has got in the way of progress) 

[Lindyloo]

https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/28293-british-schools-foreign-born-dancers/

 

So many interesting topics to explore here!!!

Still, if not more relevant today - but probably for a different thread.

[Ondine]

17 minutes ago, Lindyloo said:

So many interesting topics to explore here!!!

Still, if not more relevant today - but probably for a different thread.

 

Yes I posted that earlier.  Some things don't change!

 

 

 

 

[Peanut68]

8 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Recently there have been reports in the press that the Government is going to do an "audit" of Universities with high drop out rates and/or graduates not getting degree level jobs.  It is beginning to look as though some of the dance degrees ought to be included in this investigation.

But it could depend on whether they are accredited by universities in the ‘standard’ sense rather that deemed ‘private’….Of specific dance training institutions offering degrees I think only the ‘conservatoire’ ones are this…. So Central, Rambert, RCS, Laban (others??) 

I think dance degrees offered elsewhere are deemed ‘private’ (BTUK, LSC, Laine & others…incl RBS perhaps?) 

Dance degrees at mainstream unis would fall under this scrutiny but they are not so specifically linked to producing professional dance artists. 

[Pas de Quatre]

I thought the main concern was related to student funding/value for money and I think all of these courses entitle students to some funding, although less for the private ones.

[Beezie]

3 hours ago, Lindyloo said:

https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/28293-british-schools-foreign-born-dancers/

 

So many interesting topics to explore here!!!

Still, if not more relevant today - but probably for a different thread.

There is so much to unpack in that thread….and interesting that it started in 2008.

 

With that particular thread, I would point out that ‘not all that glitters is gold.’  The American ‘parent voice’ in that thread is strong; meaning strong opinions that they have single-handedly navigated the most direct path for their child to success.  (American speaking here, btw.)   I have seen a lot of collateral with regard to high hours and child burnout or injury as American parents strive for the ‘Keeping up with the Jones’ mentality.  And in the end, I don’t know the actual % of hopefuls to % of professionals is any different.  
 

Is it better for children to burnout or be injured out…..or to be assessed out?  Maybe the former is easier on the child and parent, as it can be seen as a nobody-at-fault run of bad luck….though clearly without other ramifications.  (A tag-on to some comments in that thread saying UK programs lack hours.)

 

I’ve previously pointed out some positives of US dance culture.  I was just a little shocked and taken aback by the tone of some of the comments in that particular thread.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Beezie

[Ondine]

21 minutes ago, Beezie said:

There is so much to unpack in that thread….and interesting that it started in 2008.

 

Yes. I posted it for the initial posts relevant to this discussion, but I note it went on to wider issues including a moan about Wayne McGregor.

 

Certainly some things don't change.

 

[Danceforfun]

On 23/09/2023 at 11:26, Ruby Foo said:

My dd had a relatively happy time at WL with a couple of wonderful and talented teachers ( one in particular) who were encouraging annd supportive and bringing out the best in my dd. However, that was not the case for every student which my daughter witnessed. And that’s what this thread is about. Those who are damaged unnecessarily. And it is unnecessary. There doesn’t need to be any assessments if the AD made it his job to know his students by teaching them. Not knowing a student’s name after 5 years is plainly not acceptable and frankly terrible management. If students were treated as individuals, collaborators in their own training they would know themselves, that staying at RBS would not be productive for them. It wouldn’t be some traumatic shock because it would have been discussed in a healthy, positive respectful manner long before the event and students who’s best interests lay elsewhere would have been supported- not just in one, one off meeting, but along the journey, building their relationships with other schools, other forms of dance, choreography, teaching etc. 

No one needs to be told to leave the year before graduation. There are no replacements in that year so why? 
Why? Because the graduation year is the representative year for RBS and they can’t show anybody who doesn’t meet the standard. Well, that’s fair but part of that standard is their own teaching and they have to be, at least partly accountable for that. My dd wasted several years being demolished by one teacher and regularly told her ‘ basics’ weren’t there by another.

I would ask ‘ why were the basics not there after 3 years at WL?  Especially as when she auditioned for the school the AD asked her  in the interview for yr9 ’Where did that beautiful technique come from’ ? So where did that beautiful technique go? That is a question. Dd would have accepted she was not to be ‘ shown’ to the world if she could have stayed and finished her degree. She would have traded being invisible to finish her degree.
Academic work was always important to her and she worked hard for 2 years to get a degree.

The school will tell you they help you after assessment. I would say that’s an extremely generous spin on what actually happens. For a start, they have never bothered to get to know you so they have no idea what you want to do and while they will put you in a studio and film an audition sequence for the schools you’ve written on your list, it is deeply impersonal and its obvious it’s just procedure.

There are no meetings with the AD, as I said, he remains an enigma.

I also know that after been assessed out students are expected to hang about the studios while others are in rehearsals for their performances. Not a nice place to be or a useful place to be.

So the fact that my daughter had a reasonably happy time for some of the years at RBS does not change the fact that the core practices and values do not connect to healthy practices.

This is true on every level, I couldn’t agree more! I trained at WL many years ago1985-1990, and whilst I did have many happy times my latter two years there I was gravely let down. When entering WL it cannot be predicted how the next five years will pan out, however what is of paramount importance is that ALL children are supported and nurtured irrespective of whether their further lies at RBS or not, they should be helped to embrace change as a gradual progression and feedback should be ongoing and transparent. Each child should be celebrated and with correct guidance will naturally feel empowered to seek their own destiny, they should not be hidden away nor shamed! 

[Danceforfun]

Just now, Danceforfun said:

This is true on every level, I couldn’t agree more! I trained at WL many years ago1985-1990, and whilst I did have many happy times my latter two years there I was gravely let down. When entering WL it cannot be predicted how the next five years will pan out, however what is of paramount importance is that ALL children are supported and nurtured irrespective of whether their further lies at RBS or not, they should be helped to embrace change as a gradual progression and feedback should be ongoing and transparent. Each child should be celebrated and with correct guidance will naturally feel empowered to seek their own destiny, they should not be hidden away nor shamed! 

Just to add! Children can only thrive if they are happy and cared for!

[mum5678]

On 23/09/2023 at 14:37, Ondine said:

From 2008 on Ballet Alert.  It's related to this discussion.

 

https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/28293-british-schools-foreign-born-dancers/ 

 

I know Nureyev was a 'permanent guest artist' and maybe that's how the company employed those not British born or from the Commonwealth?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at it from the other direction, my (British) brother in law is a very talented musician, and able to get working visas for most countries under the classification of "Alien of Extraordinary Ability" (Obviously we tease him relentlessly about the alien bit!😆) 

 

Wonder if this might be an option for our dancers? 

Edited September 25, 2023 by mum5678
Correction.

[mum5678]

On 22/09/2023 at 13:42, Anna C said:

You make excellent points, Capybara.  I think the first thing we need to do in our ballet schools is to remove something that both Luke Jennings and Dr Alison Stuart said, and that is Fear.  An artist cannot thrive in an atmosphere of fear.  In fact nobody, child or adult, is at their best, and can express themselves naturally, when scared.

 

I think I’m remembering rightly (please do correct me if not) that some years ago, both Carlos Acosta and Christopher Powney commented on different occasions that British ballet students were - not lazy, certainly - reticent, maybe?  Backwards in coming forward? “Lack motivation”, was a term I think Christopher Powney used.  
 

I disagreed then, and I disagree now.  I think what ails British ballet students is fear.  Imagine how a 16 year old could thrive if she knew that in her first week at Upper School, she wasn’t going to be body shamed?

 

Imagine having the confidence and stability of knowing that (serious injury and change of path notwithstanding) you could settle into a routine and actually *enjoy* being taught in some of the world’s most beautiful studios, by wonderful, knowledgeable, inspirational teachers, that you would be corrected but not bullied, that at the end of each year you could look forward to next year; that shame, humiliation, and most of all FEAR of being  - let’s call it what it is - expelled just before the final hurdle, was not a part of your life in training.

 

Have end of year exams/assessments by all means, but only to identify strengths and things to work on.  Not as some sort of elimination, “one in, one out” scenario.  No artist is able to be herself under those circumstances.

Yes, THIS!!! 👏 The fear is real! DS nearly stopped dancing between ages of 8-10 due to a teacher that scared him witless. Thankfully it was an associate scheme and he only saw her less than once a month, and he was a determined little bugger and refused to give up because of her. I nearly pulled him out so many times when he was literally sick with worry before her classes. (He also had the loveliest regular dance school, who were the perfect antidote to her.) He did eventually grow to enjoy her lessons and in hindsight he can see she taught him a lot, and actually has a really good relationship with her now, but she'd have gotten SO much more out of him if he hadn't been petrified. 

 

He later turned down vocational schools he was offered places at wherever he saw similar styled teachers. When he made his choice he went for the school that felt most at 'home' in despite there being other, bigger names (and scholarship offers) that he turned down. He later did a summer school at one of the post 16 schools he'd had a scholarship offer from, and they were told off and made to to do 50 press ups whenever they asked a question! How on earth are they supposed to learn in that environment? Needless to say, we all felt he'd had a lucky escape. 

 

 

[Colman]

24 minutes ago, mum5678 said:

He later did a summer school at one of the post 16 schools he'd had a scholarship offer from, and they were told off and made to to do 50 press ups whenever they asked a question!

There's a thread of ballet teaching that's been inherited from military training schools or czarist academies (or possibly just English public schools) - maybe it's the ancient fencing connection - and bad martial arts teachers. Students are disposable assets to be thrown away if they don't survive the ordeals.