Anyone changed dance schools? Why?

[Anniedancemum]

Hi everyone, 

I’m really torn at the moment and need a bit of advice. There have been a few thing’s recently with my daughter’s dance school that I’m not 100% happy with and wondering whether to just get on with it or whether to look to change schools. My daughter is only young and does a lot of dance. She’s in the comp team and competes with solos too. She’s reasonably good, but not a protege. My issues are that:

1 - the dance teacher changes class times and adds in extra at very short notice (eg day before), but also cancels at short notice too (sometimes on the day). We aren’t charged for extra lessons, but we are expected to drop everything and attend. This is very stressful because we have busy jobs. 
2 - another pupil my daughters age has been given a very similar solo. Same theme and almost identical costume. There are definitely favourites and this girl is one of them. 
3 - class uniforms are changing. The new ones are very expensive. Sometimes very little consideration is given to cost. 
4 - some classes and solos are taught by seniors. Maybe this is standard? But I feel like sometimes technique is missed. It’s just a case of ‘do this’ rather than proper teaching iyswim. 

5 - it is very heavily focused on comps and winning. My daughter loves the comps and loves winning.  But I do wonder about this element sometimes. If they can’t do something straight away they’re not in the section. They’re not really taught how. 
6 - one of my daughters ‘friends’ is actually quite mean to her. Says really upsetting and belittling things. The teacher is aware. She took it seriously, it was better for a while, but has carried on. Maybe this is just the dance world and my daughter needs to toughen up? 
The teacher is very busy so I can’t really talk to her about it. 
 

There are loads of good things too of course. My daughter has loads of friends, she has been given opportunities older than her years. The teacher is very committed and gives extra time. My daughter would hate to leave. It’s probably the best school locally and the parents are nice. Also, the girls that want to go on to professional training seem to manage to. 
 

Thanks everyone. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Anniedancemum

[batmanballetshoes]

I think you answered the question yourself - your daughter has loads of friends and would hate to leave.  Don't worry too much if she is happy and enjoying herself we can easier get far too emotional and involved with stuff that actually our kids handle quite well. A lot of what you have said I would say is typical of not just ballet of a whole heap of extra curriculum stuff.  Good luck xxx

[Peanut68]

Part of me says run for the hills but actually Batman above  does make valid points…it does indeed mirror much of what our youngsters (& we in our time had to) navigate in daily life at school & outside & perhaps we shouldn’t always try to helicopter in to try solve issues or evacuate them. Life lessons are often best learned when there is the rough with the smooth….

However, if there are concerns about any sort of abuse that would be deemed unacceptable in say a normal school setting or by your. Hood of you then that’s another issue & absolutely you must act. 
good luck

[Anniedancemum]

It’s very shouty at times and my daughter is terrified of being told off. She never is though. She doesn’t like the shouting, but I think this is probably pretty standard. 

[FlexyNexy]

12 hours ago, Anniedancemum said:

Hi everyone, 

I’m really torn at the moment and need a bit of advice. There have been a few thing’s recently with my daughter’s dance school that I’m not 100% happy with and wondering whether to just get on with it or whether to look to change schools. My daughter is only young and does a lot of dance. She’s in the comp team and competes with solos too. She’s reasonably good, but not a protege. My issues are that:

1 - the dance teacher changes class times and adds in extra at very short notice (eg day before), but also cancels at short notice too (sometimes on the day). We aren’t charged for extra lessons, but we are expected to drop everything and attend. This is very stressful because we have busy jobs. 
2 - another pupil my daughters age has been given a very similar solo. Same theme and almost identical costume. There are definitely favourites and this girl is one of them. 
3 - class uniforms are changing. The new ones are very expensive. Sometimes very little consideration is given to cost. 
4 - some classes and solos are taught by seniors. Maybe this is standard? But I feel like sometimes technique is missed. It’s just a case of ‘do this’ rather than proper teaching iyswim. 

5 - it is very heavily focused on comps and winning. My daughter loves the comps and loves winning.  But I do wonder about this element sometimes. If they can’t do something straight away they’re not in the section. They’re not really taught how. 
6 - one of my daughters ‘friends’ is actually quite mean to her. Says really upsetting and belittling things. The teacher is aware. She took it seriously, it was better for a while, but has carried on. Maybe this is just the dance world and my daughter needs to toughen up? 
The teacher is very busy so I can’t really talk to her about it. 
 

There are loads of good things too of course. My daughter has loads of friends, she has been given opportunities older than her years. The teacher is very committed and gives extra time. My daughter would hate to leave. It’s probably the best school locally and the parents are nice. Also, the girls that want to go on to professional training seem to manage to. 
 

Thanks everyone. 

hah, sounds like the school my DD attended when in her primary years. I have followed my gut feeling and left the school. 
Looking back at the time, I am glad I did it, my DD had great social cycle outside of ballet so no tears on that side, competitions are not important to have on CV (for us) and I refused to buy my DD uniforms every new term. I am one of the parents who look at the quality of training not fancy uniforms. 
Soon after we have realised that end of the term show and how much your child danced depended on costs you have invested and how you are pleasing the teacher i.e. how many privates you are booking.

Being taught by senior kids – big no for me. I no need and do not pay for babysitting.

[taxi4ballet]

2 hours ago, Anniedancemum said:

It’s very shouty at times and my daughter is terrified of being told off. She never is though. She doesn’t like the shouting, but I think this is probably pretty standard. 

No, that is absolutely not standard, and it shouldn't be happening. Nobody should be terrified of being told off in a dance class. 

 

Point 4 in your OP is also concerning. Just what is the point in learning something if it isn't done properly or with correctly trained technique? Ingrained bad habits are incredibly difficult to get rid of. You're not paying for her to receive training from unqualified seniors, aside from everything else, they will not have a knowledge and understanding of anatomy and physiology, and what is or is not appropriate for each individual dancer at their age and level.

 

Point 6 is outright bullying. What would you do if this was happening at your dd's academic school? 

 

[Pas de Quatre]

It rather depends on what you and your daughter are looking for. This sounds like a school that is more interested in short term goals, prizes and social media acclaim, rather than the slow and methodical training needed to produce good technique and a possible future career. 

[Anna C]

3 hours ago, Anniedancemum said:

It’s very shouty at times and my daughter is terrified of being told off. She never is though. She doesn’t like the shouting, but I think this is probably pretty standard. 

It shouldn’t be.  There are better ways of providing constructive correction than shouting.

 

Take it back to basics.  You’re a paying customer.  What does your gut tell you?  How does the school’s goals align with your daughter’s goals?  
 

Even if dance is only ever a serious extra-curricular activity, children should still be taught rock solid technique, especially in ballet.  They should also look forward to class, not be terrified in case they’re shouted at.

 

The Senior Girls being *teaching assistants* don’t cause me a problem personally (probably because my daughter used to do it; she’d be asked on occasion by the Teacher to teach an exercise/variation, and it was good for her confidence), but teaching the whole class on a regular basis is not the same thing.

 

I think you do have to take your daughter’s wishes into account; maybe you could write a Pros and Cons list together?  But if the Cons outweigh the Pros AND if there are other good dance schools in the area, then doing a trial class might be a good idea.

 

I always think a good rule of thumb is if you wouldn’t put up with it at academic school/swimming lessons or elsewhere, don’t tolerate it from a dance school.

[taxi4ballet]

5 minutes ago, Anna C said:

The Senior Girls being *teaching assistants* don’t cause me a problem personally (probably because my daughter used to do it; she’d be asked on occasion by the Teacher to teach an exercise/variation, and it was good for her confidence), but teaching the whole class on a regular basis is not the same thing.

Yes I agree, occasionally assisting and teaching something in a class at the request of the teacher is fine, but senior students regularly teaching a full class of younger kids at the dance school is a very long way from ideal. 

[Anniedancemum]

Thanks everyone, lots to think about and I really appreciate your comments. And those of you saying would I put up with it at an academic school make a very good point. I hadn’t really thought about it in that way before. There is a proper teacher for ballet. The seniors take other classes and are in charge of the solos. Dd says she wants to go to dance college at 16, but she’s only young and looks up to the older girls, so this could easily change in the future. Tbh I think dance will end up being a good hobby than her career, but we’ll see. It’s hard to know what other schools are like locally. I think there might be one or two that are good. One is about the same distance away. The other is a good 20/25 minute drive. The other schools do exams, which our current school doesn’t do. Not sure how I feel about this. Not sure if my daughter would like it or not. Those who have progressed onto dance college and then professional training seem to have managed fine without them. And the dance teacher thinks they’re unnecessary. 

[LinMM]

It’s interesting that your daughters school does not do exams at all not even for those children who may want to. 
Of course when children do exams it is also an external way to bring in judgement of children’s basic progress in a particular school. Of course that’s not the main purpose of the exams but if a school had lots of pupils failing their exams then that would be indicative of poor teaching perhaps? and likewise high results of most pupils in their exams would be indicative that the school is getting something right!! 
Is your daughters school a theatre school or ballet school ….it may be slightly different if it’s more general training than more ballet specific etc. 
 

[Doing Dance 1]

16 hours ago, Anniedancemum said:

They’re not really taught how. 

If the students are not actually ‘learning’ then what are they gaining?

I have ‘thoughts’ about dance schools with a competitive focus so I’ll try to put that to one side and acknowledge my bias.
That being said, I’d say, trust your instincts and get out.

[Anniedancemum]

Can I ask what it is you don’t like about dance schools that do competitions? Genuinely interested, not having a go at all. Thank you. 

[DVDfan]

In my experience, if a teacher is shouting so that a child is afraid of her, that is a warning sign and you should get out.

 

As far as the mean 'friend' goes, it depends. Is the 'friend' just boosting her own confidence in a rather childish way 'I know something you don't so I'm clever'? If so, I should tell your daughter that the 'friend' is just unhappy and insecure, and to ignore it, it's not her problem. On the other hand, if it is directed spite of the 'you're no good at dancing and you never will be and everyone is laughing at you behind your back' type, then this is a deliberate attempt to destroy the self-confidence and self-esteem of another person. No one should put up with that and if the teacher doesn't stop it for good, you should walk. If you do that, make sure your child knows that the 'friend' and the teacher are at fault, not her.

[Anna C]

26 minutes ago, Anniedancemum said:

The other schools do exams, which our current school doesn’t do. Not sure how I feel about this. Not sure if my daughter would like it or not. Those who have progressed onto dance college and then professional training seem to have managed fine without them. And the dance teacher thinks they’re unnecessary.

Interesting!  Graded exams - eg RAD Pre-Primary to Grade 8 - are not necessary, certainly, but are nice to learn, very “dancey” in the senior grades, and good practice for the more rigorous Vocational exams (eg Intermediate Foundation to Advanced 1 & 2).  
 

If a student’s goal is to become a qualified dance teacher, then these Vocational exams often ARE very necessary, in particular Intermediate or equivalent in ballet which is a requirement for many dance teacher training courses.  
 

Plus, should your dd turn out to be academic, RAD Grades 6/7/8 and vocational exams up to and including Advanced Foundation give UCAS points.  Even if these points can’t be applied to all university applications, the fact that a student has evidence of study up to a certain level in dance and/or music is helpful on personal statements.  
 

Just my 2p worth. 😊

[Anniedancemum]

33 minutes ago, LinMM said:

It’s interesting that your daughters school does not do exams at all not even for those children who may want to. 
Of course when children do exams it is also an external way to bring in judgement of children’s basic progress in a particular school. Of course that’s not the main purpose of the exams but if a school had lots of pupils failing their exams then that would be indicative of poor teaching perhaps? and likewise high results of most pupils in their exams would be indicative that the school is getting something right!! 
Is your daughters school a theatre school or ballet school ….it may be slightly different if it’s more general training than more ballet specific etc. 
 

Yes, it provides all round classes. Lots of dance genres, singing, drama and Acro. 

[LinMM]

I agree that exams can turn out to be very useful and it certainly adds some focus to classes. 
Of course not the B-all and end-all of dance classes and too much focussing on exams is not so good but just part of an all round good dance training. 

[Anniedancemum]

8 minutes ago, Anna C said:

Interesting!  Graded exams - eg RAD Pre-Primary to Grade 8 - are not necessary, certainly, but are nice to learn, very “dancey” in the senior grades, and good practice for the more rigorous Vocational exams (eg Intermediate Foundation to Advanced 1 & 2).  
 

If a student’s goal is to become a qualified dance teacher, then these Vocational exams often ARE very necessary, in particular Intermediate or equivalent in ballet which is a requirement for many dance teacher training courses.  
 

Plus, should your dd turn out to be academic, RAD Grades 6/7/8 and vocational exams up to and including Advanced Foundation give UCAS points.  Even if these points can’t be applied to all university applications, the fact that a student has evidence of study up to a certain level in dance and/or music is helpful on personal statements.  
 

Just my 2p worth. 😊

Ah that’s interesting to know. She is very academic, although young she is at the top of her class and ‘greater depth’ across the board. I hadn’t realised the dance exams can be done see towards UCAS points. The classes are in mixed age groups. It’s not a huge school so dd is in with older children for normal classes and comp is mixed too. But some routines are just for seniors. 

[LinMM]

Yes I can see a theatre school is slightly different so maybe has different priorities. As you say your daughter is very young perhaps at this stage exams are not so important and focussing on enjoyment is more appropriate. I’m she she will let you know if she’s starting to get more serious about certain things above others when introducing exams may become more important then looking for really sound training will become essential. 
Also if you say she is good academically as well ….anything could happen in the next few years!! 
So if your daughter is generally happy just at the moment may be best just to let her stay there for now but keep an eye on some of the negatives you’ve listed above to check don’t get any worse as the teacher has to be respectful of the people paying for the tuition or she will start losing people anyway eventually. 

 

[taxi4ballet]

2 hours ago, Anniedancemum said:

Can I ask what it is you don’t like about dance schools that do competitions? Genuinely interested, not having a go at all. Thank you. 

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with schools which enter their students into competitions per se. But (and it is a big but) as long as it isn't the be-all and end-all. Some of them concentrate so much on the competition aspect that there really isn't enough time in their schedule to pay attention to a solid grounding in technique, which is particularly important in ballet. That classical ballet technique also feeds into their modern, jazz, lyrical and contemporary dance too.

[Anniedancemum]

@taxi4balletthis is a very good point. They do huge amounts of work towards comps and I often think they’re not doing the basics. That’s what I mean about ‘just do it’ and if they can then great, but if they can’t they’re not in the section. For example, my daughter can sometimes do a double pirouette and sometimes can’t, it’s not secure by any means and the technique isn’t great. They don’t do it over and over to learn properly because there’s not time. So we end up trying to do more at home, but I don’t really know what I’m doing, 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Anniedancemum

[LinMM]

Hmmm now that sounds a bit more stressful …I don’t think it should be down to the mums ( or dads) to be teaching the basics at home however supportive they are!! 
There has to be some balance between learning correct technique and taking part in performances whether competitive or otherwise. 
I imagine as time passes this will get increasingly frustrating for your daughter even though she is obviously a quick learner. 
What happens to the girls who end up not being able to take part because they can’t pick up quick enough or does everybody get a chance at something? 

[Pas de Quatre]

If the school doesn't do any exams, are they affiliated to, or validated by, any reputable organisation? What qualifications do the teachers hold. Are insurance and safeguarding such as DBS in place?

[Anniedancemum]

21 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Hmmm now that sounds a bit more stressful …I don’t think it should be down to the mums ( or dads) to be teaching the basics at home however supportive they are!! 
There has to be some balance between learning correct technique and taking part in performances whether competitive or otherwise. 
I imagine as time passes this will get increasingly frustrating for your daughter even though she is obviously a quick learner. 
What happens to the girls who end up not being able to take part because they can’t pick up quick enough or does everybody get a chance at something? 

They’re only in a bit of the routines - the easier sections. I think some probably end up leaving in the end. They’re very successful at comps. 

[glowlight]

@Anniedancemum - your situation is ringing quite a few alarm bells for you as a parent, and I'm inclined to say, don't ignore your gut feeling.  

 

Why don't you have a look around and see what other dance schools are available locally? When you have done that you may feel that your current school gives you and your dd just what you need at the moment.  Or it may open many other opportunities.

 

For me personally, as a working parent, the short notice changes to timetables would be a deal breaker.  I wouldn't have been able to work around it, and it really isn't the norm.

[Anniedancemum]

@glowlight you’re right, the last minute changes are a total nightmare to deal with. Me and my husband both work and it’s so hard to manage. But we have to otherwise we would be seen as not committed, and it would make it harder for our daughter. 

[glowlight]

@Anniedancemum - for me this was the biggest alarm bell in your post.  In my experience this is not normal.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

1 hour ago, Anniedancemum said:

They’re only in a bit of the routines - the easier sections. I think some probably end up leaving in the end. They’re very successful at comps. 

However, there are comps which are debatable in terms of their value. There are local comps which some schools do that have very variable training standards and then big comps such as YAGP. There are schools near where I live that do lots of comps but only one that I would say has good training. Several just rely on tricks. 

Exams are not always necessary but teachers from a reputable exam board need to regularly enter pupils for exams to remain registered. The shouting is not acceptable either. If your Dd does want to consider vocational or even musical theatre training at 16, then correct training now is needed.

 

I would suggest taking a few trial classes elsewhere and look for a good associate scheme. 

[Dance*is*life]

Obviously the social aspect of dance classes is important, but I am sure your daughter would make friends wherever she went. It really doesn't sound to me that she is being taught seriously and their demands and general attitude sound unreasonable too.  I would go and investigate other schools if I were you..........  as Pas de Quatre said - what qualifications do the staff have??  

[Pups_mum]

6 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with schools which enter their students into competitions per se. But (and it is a big but) as long as it isn't the be-all and end-all. Some of them concentrate so much on the competition aspect that there really isn't enough time in their schedule to pay attention to a solid grounding in technique, which is particularly important in ballet. That classical ballet technique also feeds into their modern, jazz, lyrical and contemporary dance too.

I couldn't agree more.

Competitions have their place. They provide performance opportunities, especially if you don't live somewhere with easily accessible youth companies and so on. There are also lots of transferable skills and life lessons that come from competing and being part of a team in anything. So if approached correctly I think there's a lot that can be gained from dance competitions. Not to mention fun. Last time my now grown up DD was home we sat for an evening and laughed til we had tears running down our faces recounting stories of her days dancing in festivals. Interestingly, though she won plenty of trophies and medals over the years, the memories that brought the most pleasure were almost all related to either things that went comically wrong, or triumphs over adversity rather than winning per se.

But the competition must be your servant not your master. There's a difference between schools that do competitions and schools that are totally competition focused. When my DD first started doing festivals her teacher said something like "I'm teaching you to dance, not teaching you dances. We're doing this so you can learn, not so you can win". 

OP, I get the impression that that is not the ethos at the school you are describing. To be honest, I think there are quite a few red flags there and from what you're saying it doesn't sound like a particularly healthy environment to me and I would be looking elsewhere.

Oh, and shouting is inevitable from time to time maybe, but should not be a regular feature of classes. I'm not a dance teacher but I coach a sport, from preschoolers up to young adults and whilst  am not going to claim I never raise my voice it's largely reserved for occasions when someone does something potentially dangerous or when a group is over excited and noisy and I need shout to be heard and bring the focus back.(Though I'm actually more likely to use a whistle in the latter circumstances- not appropriate for a dance class I suppose though!) But I never shout in a scolding/intimidating way. There are much more effective ways to correct an individual or control a group and I would have significant reservations about the training and skill level of any teacher/coach who resorted to shouting at students on a regular basis.

[Anniedancemum]

Thanks for your comments everyone. It really is helpful to hear your thoughts. I agree with the points that have been made, and they’re all the reasons why I’m thinking about potentially moving my daughter. But there are lots of good things too, which makes the decision hard. I don’t think I could approach other dance schools in secret (and probably shouldn’t), and I think our current school would be really annoyed if I told them I was thinking of leaving. It would cause a big fall out. And if I made a mistake, I couldn’t go back. As for qualifications, I’m not sure. I’ve never asked. I’d just presumed the real teachers had qualifications. I know a couple of them teach at a few different schools/colleges. I know that the chaperones are all trained, registered and DBS checked and know who the first aiders are. Comps are properly staffed and all paperwork completed so it seems like everything is done properly. The seniors don’t have qualifications though. I do sometimes wonder about first aid in these situations. They could well have done a course, but I don’t know. If my daughter wanted to move, then I would, but I know she doesn’t. 

[Dance*is*life]

From my own experience we have students who moved to us from other schools and whilst they had been quite happy where they were, once they moved they realised the difference in the quality of the teaching and were sorry they hadn't moved to us sooner!  When my niece was 12, I started teaching in a school near to where she lived, however my sister-in-law didn't want to move her as she had lots of friends in the dance school she was attending.  Then one day when they were working on the end of year performance, the teacher had a screaming fit and really shouted at our niece, who has always been a quiet, hardworking person and the opposite of trouble maker.  She walked out and went home on the spot and finally they transferred her to me!   She had such faulty technique and it took quite a while to rebuild it correctly and it was too late to develop her potential.  She is now a research scientist and would never have become a dancer anyway, but I often think of the years she wasted at that dance school.  Of course your problem is knowing which alternative school would be better - it's difficult for non professionals to decide that!  The point is that your daughter may be happy where she is and not want to move, but she doesn't really know anything else and those things you pointed out are troubling.........  I completely agree with Taxi4ballet - there are competition schools, whose whole focus is preparing tricks and working on dances and then there are schools, where they do competitions as an added bonus to give more performance opportunities, but concentrate on strengthening technique. The latter is definitely preferable.

[Doing Dance 1]

12 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

her teacher said something like "I'm teaching you to dance, not teaching you dances. We're doing this so you can learn, not so you can win". 

This is perfect! 
For a dance school to really call itself a ‘school’, then the children should be truly learning, and hopefully learning to be a dancer, appreciate dance and even be a choreographer/ dance maker - not just picking up and performing routines. 

 

4 hours ago, Anniedancemum said:

As for qualifications, I’m not sure. I’ve never asked. I’d just presumed the real teachers had qualifications.

You really should ask!
That’s not to say that every qualified person who teaches syllabus work is going to be an excellent teacher (can of worms alert) and that an experienced professional with no affiliation with a syllabus/ exam board can’t be an excellent teacher, but they should be able to provide proof of their suitability to be teaching your children.
Where did the teachers themselves train/ perform and are they engaging in CPD (continuous professional development) by attending seminars, webinars etc.

Safeguarding is a non negotiable though and there should be clear protocols in place for first aid etc

Edited July 4, 2023 by Doing Dance 1