Anyone changed dance schools? Why?

[Anniedancemum]

The kids do like winning too though. I think the teacher does genuinely care about the children. But she does push them hard and is very competitive. She doesn’t shout every lesson, maybe I’ve given that impression. She can be really nice, but if it’s near a comp it ramps up. Strangely the kids do really like her, my dd included. I can’t really explain it. 

[BalletGirlAndBoy]

I have been reading this thread with interest and I agree with the majority of comments above. My DD is at a school that enters festivals and aims to do well at them but it is certainly not the be all and end all. By a long way, the focus is on syllabus classes and developing excellent technique. The competition side is there for those dancers who choose to do it - they mainly do solos/ duets/ trios and rehearse in one class per week. Every other class is RAD ballet/ ISTD tap and modern, plus acro, PBT and one non-syllabus ballet class per week until they start the Vocational grades. My DD is progressing well - she feels happy and valued at her school and is being pushed to the right level - so it feels encouraging rather than scary. Echoing some of the other comments, I would definitely look around as, in my view, solid technique really should be the basis of the training. 

[NeverTooOld]

This has been a really interesting discussion to read and a couple of points jump out. Firstly, you have to do what is best for your daughter, especially at such a young age. I agree with what others have said about the most important thing being to learn solid, correct technique that can be built on as she gets older but also, it has to be fun and enjoyable too. I totally understand having to give a notice period for leaving - this seems fairly standard. We've had to give 3 months written notice to leave a school before. However, I don't understand having to get permission from a current school to attend a trial somewhere else as this would back you into a corner either way. If you decided to stay at your current school after this, it would have a negative impact on your relationship with them. It is basic business sense to make sure your customers are happy and if you don't or you can't supply what they need, you can't be surprised if they go elsewhere. I also think it can be beneficial to learn from different teachers - my main teacher has always been very supportive of this. In the same way, I am extremely loyal to her and value her opinion on anything new I want to try. I also trust that if she suggests a new class/teacher to me, it is because she knows it will benefit me. I think it is different as an adult because you are more aware of what you need but my daughter did move schools a couple of times when she was younger before she started with my teacher and she has never looked back. Her technique has got so much better and she is much happier with her.

[mumtotwoballerinas]

On 02/07/2023 at 23:19, Anniedancemum said:

Hi everyone, 

I’m really torn at the moment and need a bit of advice. There have been a few thing’s recently with my daughter’s dance school that I’m not 100% happy with and wondering whether to just get on with it or whether to look to change schools. My daughter is only young and does a lot of dance. She’s in the comp team and competes with solos too. She’s reasonably good, but not a protege. My issues are that:

1 - the dance teacher changes class times and adds in extra at very short notice (eg day before), but also cancels at short notice too (sometimes on the day). We aren’t charged for extra lessons, but we are expected to drop everything and attend. This is very stressful because we have busy jobs. 
2 - another pupil my daughters age has been given a very similar solo. Same theme and almost identical costume. There are definitely favourites and this girl is one of them. 
3 - class uniforms are changing. The new ones are very expensive. Sometimes very little consideration is given to cost. 
4 - some classes and solos are taught by seniors. Maybe this is standard? But I feel like sometimes technique is missed. It’s just a case of ‘do this’ rather than proper teaching iyswim. 

5 - it is very heavily focused on comps and winning. My daughter loves the comps and loves winning.  But I do wonder about this element sometimes. If they can’t do something straight away they’re not in the section. They’re not really taught how. 
6 - one of my daughters ‘friends’ is actually quite mean to her. Says really upsetting and belittling things. The teacher is aware. She took it seriously, it was better for a while, but has carried on. Maybe this is just the dance world and my daughter needs to toughen up? 
The teacher is very busy so I can’t really talk to her about it. 
 

There are loads of good things too of course. My daughter has loads of friends, she has been given opportunities older than her years. The teacher is very committed and gives extra time. My daughter would hate to leave. It’s probably the best school locally and the parents are nice. Also, the girls that want to go on to professional training seem to manage to. 
 

Thanks everyone. 

My daughter was in a very similar situation and was relieved when we changed schools. We gave her the choice and she jumped at it 

[Anniedancemum]

@mumtotwoballerinas great to hear that things worked out well for you. Unfortunately my dd is adamant she doesn’t want to leave. Tonight dd told me that they won’t be good if the teacher doesn’t shout (ie shouting makes them good) and they don’t want to be rubbish. This is obviously concerning. However, dd does have other teachers, and the seniors, and none of them shout. It’s just the principal, and only comp classes. Not every time, but it’s especially bad when they’re on a run up to a comp or show. 

[Anna C]

As I said earlier in the thread, you might have to make the decision for her, as she’s so young and doesn’t have any experience of a different teaching style.  After all, it’s not just the shouting.

 

The way I look at things is “how many red flags is this situation throwing up?”  How many issues am I prepared to tolerate before I draw the line?

 

When my dd was an Associate, there was one particular teacher at one of the two schools whose methods I did not particularly like.  She was very “hands on” physically, which isn’t a problem in itself, but on more than one occasion she was too “physical” and actually hurt my daughter, who was angry.  We talked it through together and decided that as it was her last year there and all the other teachers, including her main ballet teacher, were wonderful, daughter decided against complaining but promised she would tell me immediately if anything else happened.  (it didn’t).

 

So that was one “red flag” but the only one, balanced out by lots more positives, and dd was 14 or 15 so could make the decision for herself.

 

What you’ve been saying about your dd’s school raises a lot of red flags, not just one or two.  There’s the shouting, the concentration on winning comps at the expense of proper teaching, technique, and exams, the constant demands for money, the messing around with the timetable, possibly unqualified or un-regulated teachers, the favouritism (although you will probably get that to some extent elsewhere), and the bullying.

 

For me, that would be about 4 too many, and I would absolutely start looking around for another school, but that’s just me.  There are times when I wish I had put my daughter’s learning style and welfare before loyalty (or fear of being accused of disloyalty), but hindsight is a wonderful thing.  
 

This is your life and your daughter.  You know her best.  What I would say is that until she’s old enough - and experienced enough - to decide for herself, you have to advocate for her.  If you decide to stick with this school, do it because you think it’s best for her right now - not because you’re scared of possible fallout from the teacher or other parents.  I’m quite sure other people have moved schools, and the teacher’s got over it. 

 

 

[Anniedancemum]

Thank you everyone. Lots of really good points made and things to consider. Plenty of thinking to do before September. 

[HopelessMummy]

Good luck. Go with your gut. I moved my child and really pleased I did. Wish I did it earlier tbh..hope it all goes well whatever you decide

[Legseleven]

As Anna C said, my feeling would be that if you move your daughter - and if it were me I would move mine given what you have said about the school (my huge issue is that no-one should be teaching children that if they don’t shout at them then they won’t be any good and they won’t win at a competition!) - you could legitimately say that the last minute timetable changes are the reason as you and your family can’t deal with these. You don’t need to go into any other details and this wouldn’t be a lie, just a small part of the truth. 

[DVDfan]

I am an outsider to the ballet world, a watcher not a doer so I am not sure how valid my perspective is.

For what it's worth, however, I am left speechless at the idea that they won't be any good if they are not shouted at. This is totally illogical. I mean, is the raised voice some sort of magic nostrum that will bestow talent and technique upon them? Are they so un-motivated that only shouting will get them to co-operate and work hard? If so, why are they there at all?

It seems to me that they are being set up very young to accept a culture of verbally abusive teaching, with this myth, that they won't be any good if the teacher doesn't shout.

[Pups_mum]

@DVDfan has very eloquently expressed what I wanted to say, so I won't repeat it. But I agree, this would be a huge red flag for me, and possibly the most concerning thing you have described OP. There are lots of things in your posts which if taken in isolation might not be too bad if everything else was fine and dandy, but when added together paint quite a concerning picture. But for me, a young child learning to accept that this style of teaching is not only acceptable but actually necessary would be enough, on its own, to make me take my child elsewhere.

We are all on this forum because we love dance and think it is important, but we need to remember that it it is something which is supposed to enhance people's lives and it actually isn't always worth the price that some teachers, schools, companies etc expect dancers to pay in terms of their physical and mental health. And the kind of behaviours that do that damage unfortunately can and do start at a very early age.

As I said upthread, I'm not a dance teacher but I do coach a sport to children over quite a wide age and ability range so there are some parallels. It's competitive so of course the kids and I like it when they win. But I am acutely aware of how their early life experiences in a sport or other competitive environment can affect them. Whilst I am obviously there to teach them the sport I think my main role is actually to contribute to their development as happy, healthy active young people, and the type of behaviour and language I use is key to that. 

Nobody likes to rock the boat so I do understand your reticence to move OP, especially if your DD seems happy. But she is a small child, she doesn't have the cognitive ability or experience to make these kind of judgements yet.There are probably lots of things that would make her happy which you as a parent know are not really good for her and so don't allow to happen. The fact you have started this thread suggests to me that you know a lot of what you have described is not ok and I would urge you not to ignore those niggles. Lots of us on here who have been around the dance world and indeed other youth sports and activities for a long time recognise the types of behaviour you are describing and I think we are all giving you more or less the same advice. There's a reason for that. This will not  get better and in fact is likely to become more problematic as your DD gets older. And it will get even harder for you to move as time goes on. If that little inner voice is saying "this isn't right" - which it sounds like it is - then listen to it. It's much easier to change things at this age than with an older child.

[Ondine]

 

8 hours ago, DVDfan said:

they won't be any good if they are not shouted at

 

I think this 'shouting' needs to be contextualised.

 

I was 'shouted' at in ballet class, many times, and I've been 'shouted' at or to by some really rather well known and greatly loved teachers!  It was fine as I knew it was to help me improve my performance, my technique, I knew that was the reason a teacher raised his or her voice, and I know I've 'shouted' when teaching. But that's how you make yourself heard over loud music / a piano thumping out the overture from William Tell when  students are, for example,  in the middle of leaping around the room in a circle 'doing' grand allegro so you raise your voice to 'shout' 'Stretch your feet' 'Use your head' 'Faster arms' 'Keep In time' 'Keep your heels down'  'Where's that plie?'  'SHOULDERS DOWN!' 'USE THE FLOOR!' and all the rest of the time honoured corrections.

 

Loud, good natured exhortation in a ballet class is not the same thing as giving a student a shouty 'dressing down' and making them feel bad.

 

Small children may not appreciate that. It seems it's the older students who are 'shouted' at and perhaps mixing the tiddlers with teens is not recommended.

 

The real puzzle and worry is the lack of exams.

 

Not every school does performances, shows, competitions, nothing wrong with any of those, as an add on and a fun hobby, some children love dressing up and performing, others just quietly enjoy their weekly ballet class with none of that,  but those which do also usually have EXAMS as a solid foundation for these. IMO teaching should be based on a defined, progressive syllabus from a reputable examining organisation (though of course 'free' work is incorporated too) and there are several good and sound reasons for this where young people are concerned?

 

Yes ballet / dance / stage schools are businesses, and some are better than others.

 

Any decent school will have a website or at least a FB page with the qualifications of the owner / Principal., anyone else teaching, and from which awarding body these qualifications were gained. At times there will be students in training, but these should be under supervision and not left alone to teach children.

 

Here are a few reputable orgs. There are smaller and other orgs, these are the main ones. Exams include 'class' exams, grade exams, what used to be called 'majors' and now are 'vocational' exams for older and more serious students. 

 

ISTD (Imperial ballet and other dance genres) https://www.istd.org/home/

 

Cecchetti, ballet under the 'umbrella' of  ISTD ballet https://www.istd.org/dance/dance-genres/cecchetti-classical-ballet/

 

BBO Dance https://bbo.dance/

 

Royal Academy of Dance (ballet) https://www.royalacademyofdance.org/

 

It could be that another nearby school does do exams, and will be willing to take your daughter for a weekly 'exam' class,  see how she enjoys it, and she could also remain at the 'competition' school for now? See what develops. The existing teacher can hardly compialn if this is not what she offers.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ondine

[taxi4ballet]

There is a big difference between a raised voice to cut over the top of loud music, and shouting at the children to make them do as they are told.

 

I find it quite worrying that children (and their parents) are being conditioned to accept that getting shouted at is normal in a dance class. 

[Ondine]

Just now, taxi4ballet said:

There is a big difference between a raised voice to cut over the top of loud music, and shouting at the children to make them do as they are told.

 

Yes but I'm unclear which it is in this instance. A seven year old may not appreciate the difference.

 

Also, if children are misbehaving in a dance class, so much so they need to be told to behave, I think I'd have a word with a parent.

[Anna C]

“She has to shout at us to make us good enough” or words to that effect sounds to me like a teacher justifying bad, borderline abusive behaviour to young children.  In which case, these 7 year olds are internalising the message that it’s their fault the teacher shouts.  They are “making her do it” because they are not good enough and should be better.

 

That does not sound like a nurturing, fun, enjoyable environment that will foster a lifelong love of dance.  

 

 

[LinMM]

Completely off topic Anna C but is that your current doggie? 

[Pups_mum]

2 hours ago, Ondine said:

seven year old may not appreciate the difference.

No, exactly, they may not. Which is why it is the teacher's responsibility to be clear and use age appropriate techniques that don't require small children to be able to interpret the intent. The intent is almost irrelevant if harm is being done in fact. Obviously a teacher who deliberately instills fear into a child is a worse human being than one who does it inadvertently due to lack of skill or experience but from the child's perspective the outcome is the same. If negative emotions, beliefs and behaviours are being developed it doesn't matter whether the teacher meant it or not, the damage is the same. And it is the teacher's responsibility to assess the effects of their methods, reflect on their practice and change if necessary, not the small child's to be able to rationalise adult behaviours.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Pups_mum
Spelling

[taxi4ballet]

3 hours ago, Ondine said:

I think this 'shouting' needs to be contextualised.

 

I was 'shouted' at in ballet class, many times, and I've been 'shouted' at or to by some really rather well known and greatly loved teachers!  It was fine as I knew it was to help me improve my performance, my technique, I knew that was the reason a teacher raised his or her voice

 

A 7 year-old cannot contextualise in a mature way.

 

Maybe that's how things were done, but that doesn't make it right. I've heard this argument so many times: "Oh that's how I was trained, and it never did me any harm!!"

 

There is NO excuse for verbal abuse or instilling fear into dance students in 2023. I had been hoping we'd moved on from all that.

[Ondine]

I wasn't 'verbally abused' (nor verbally abused anyone) as I made clear. I've never been scared by anyone shouting to remind me to 'STRETCH YOUR FEET'  'GET YOUR HEELS DOWN' over the top of a thumping piano at full pelt and clattering point shoes.  I, however, stretched my feet and the rest. It's how I improved my technique.

 

As I said above (I've been selectively quoted, out of the full context, which makes a difference)

 

Loud, good natured exhortation in a ballet class is not the same thing as giving a student a shouty 'dressing down' and making them feel bad.

 

However, I think the 'shouting' to the comp students probably requires more explanation and context than was given, before rushing to make sweeping judgements.

 

@Anniedancemumsaid:  I can see how it comes across like that, but it isn’t anywhere near as brutal. There are plenty of kids who just come for classes and don’t do comp/solos. They’re never shouted at. The school instills a good work ethic, and everyone is expected to try - they can’t stand about chatting for example, but these kids aren’t shouted at. It’s only comp kids. And my dd hasn’t been shouted at particularly, but others have. It’s a lot of the older ones. My dd just doesn’t like the shouting. They do take comps seriously and go to win though. The teacher doesn’t see the point if you’re not properly competing. And she loves to beat other schools and get good feedback from the adjudicators. They usually do win. 

 

What is the teacher shouting? Why is she shouting? When is she shouting?  How old are the older ones?

 

(And I add to what I said above, syllabus work and exams are not the be all and end all of dancing, but structured training,  sound technique and the rest are required to progress. Not all children want to do exams, there are positives and downsides, but at least if some children are put in for exams with a reputable examining body, and gain decent results, then you can be reasonably assured that damage isn't being done to growing bodies and the basics are covered.)

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ondine

[taxi4ballet]

With the greatest respect, I do know what I'm talking about. As it happens, my family has personal experience of the psychological damage that can be caused by dance training.

 

I do not believe that children should be shouted at in a dance class.

 

[Anniedancemum]

I’ll try and clarify the shouting. Yes, there is the usual ‘loud voice over music’ that you might expect. The contemporary dance teacher does this too. It’s more like loud instructions than shouting. It’s quite a strict/firm style of teaching, but I wouldn’t say it’s abusive. But there is also other shouting too at times eg ‘NO NO Annie. I said Left foot, LEFT. COME ON!’ And ‘What’s the matter!, you need to be centre stage! CENTRE! You’ll make everyone’s spacing wrong! You’ll ruin the routine if you don’t get this RIGHT!’ It’s mainly aimed at age 10 onwards. She’s also pulled dances last minute that she doesn’t think are up standard. But it’s not like this every lesson. It much worse near a comp or when a routine has been cleaned, but then there are still corrections. When they’re learning a new routine, or new section, there’s not this kind of shouting. 

[Ondine]

5 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

There is a big difference between a raised voice to cut over the top of loud music, and shouting at the children to make them do as they are told.

 

 

I agree with what you say, and it's actually what I said too.

 

Loud, good natured exhortation in a ballet class is not the same thing as giving a student a shouty 'dressing down' and making them feel bad.

 

However, unless and until @Anniedancemum  expands and explains we won't have the full picture.

 

Edit: she has, above.  Its not easy,  teaching people to dance, especially when you're pushed for time.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ondine

[Anna C]

39 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

With the greatest respect, I do know what I'm talking about. As it happens, my family has personal experience of the psychological damage that can be caused by dance training.

 

I do not believe that children should be shouted at in a dance class.

 

Absolutely.  There is a world of difference between raising your voice to be heard over a piano/musician in class and *shouting AT* children - especially little ones - to “make them good/better/win”.  Think Brian Maloney taking morning class at Royal; calling out instructions and corrections to dancers in order to be heard, vs Abby Lee Miller screeching and bellowing at young girls so they win at the next comp.  Not remotely the same.
 

Like Taxi, I know what it’s like to have experience of the psychological - and physical - injury caused by dance training.  We should not still be tolerating this treatment of our children in 2023.

[Anniedancemum]

The kids are well behaved (except one or two) so the shouting is not generally about behaviour. The couple who are less well behaved are told off. The vast majority are dedicated and focused. 

[Anniedancemum]

The shouting is not Abby Lee level. 

[Anna C]

6 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Its not easy,  teaching people to dance, especially when you're pushed for time.

If they didn’t only do comps, and were teaching proper syllabus and technique classes, working towards exams and so on, they wouldn’t be so “pushed for time”.

 

As I said earlier, and as others have said, it doesn’t matter WHY the teacher is shouting AT the children - what matters is how it makes the children feel, and the message they take away and internalise.  And let’s remember that these are children at a local dance school, not 17 year olds in full-time training in Russia.  

[Anna C]

34 minutes ago, Anniedancemum said:

The shouting is not Abby Lee level. 

I’m sure it’s not.  I was using her as an example to demonstrate the difference to Ondine.

[Anna C]

3 hours ago, LinMM said:

Completely off topic Anna C but is that your current doggie? 

It is!  It’s been 12 years since my beautiful Border Collie went to the Rainbow Bridge, and we loved and lost a Mini Schnauzer in between.  This is our tiny rescue girl from the RSPCA - very traumatised when she came to us but getting better every day.  I thought it was about time I updated my photo! 

[Ondine]

I think I know the difference Anna_C thanks.  I've only ever once had a teacher be nasty to someone in a class I was in,  where we all felt bad.  (She went on to be a principal in a major UK company.) There was no shouting involved, quiet cutting words can do damage too.

 

As I said:

 

Loud, good natured exhortation in a ballet class is not the same thing as giving a student a shouty 'dressing down' and making them feel bad.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ondine

[Dance*is*life]

I'll never forget watching a summer course in the States.  It was a character class and one very talented dancer kept making a mistake.  Watching her I realised that she was simply using the wrong foot at one point and that led to the muddle. However the teacher just kept shouting at her until she reduced the child to tears, humiliating her in front of everybody. Eventually, after ten minutes, she grudgingly told the girl in a very spiteful way, what she could have told her gently right at the beginning and of course the girl got it right.   When I mentioned it to someone else there watching, their reply was "Oh yes that's so and so -she gets wonderful results"!  My immediate thought was that no results were worth what that teacher put that poor student through!   I believe in positive coaching.  A child who loves what they're doing and is encouraged and taught to believe in themselves will work hard and improve and come through it safely and healthily.

[Bex]

The shouting, the unpredictable class times, lack of focus on technique and seniors teaching classes would have me out of there. But I also understand that if your daughter loves it, has friends and enjoys the competitions, it is hard to contemplate moving her. Has she maybe watched Dance Moms and thinks that bullying teachers are the norm? I dithered about moving my daughter to a school with stronger ballet and more performance opportunities but she is quite shy socially and had found her feet at her existing school with a nice group of friends, so I left her there and she is pretty happy and is developing into a lovely dancer.