RAD numerical grades versus vocational grades versus hours

[Paleblueleotard]

We are at a crossroads with DD's ballet classes. At her school once they have done grade 5 they can then keep on with numerical grades, start vocational grades in addition, or just do the vocational grades.

 

She wants to keep on auditioning for vocational school, in spite of no MDS offers for year 7 or year 8, so I suppose I'd like her to do the pathway which would give her the most help with this, but at the same time not bankrupt us! 

 

She currently does:

one RAD grade class a week

one approx grade/free work class at that level at a different school

2 x free work classes - one at her level, one slightly above

one pointe class (does about half on pointe at present)

one stretching/flexibility class (although could swap this to vocational grade?)

 

Associates fortnightly

plus school lunchtime dance club and an annual term of dancing for PE.

 

The RAD website isn't clear for those who wish to teach ballet in the future whether it's necessary to do grades 6-8 or just vocational grades or both are required.

 

Any suggestions based on experience of what your children did or what helped re vocational school would be great!

[balletbean]

31 minutes ago, Paleblueleotard said:

We are at a crossroads with DD's ballet classes. At her school once they have done grade 5 they can then keep on with numerical grades, start vocational grades in addition, or just do the vocational grades.

 

She wants to keep on auditioning for vocational school, in spite of no MDS offers for year 7 or year 8, so I suppose I'd like her to do the pathway which would give her the most help with this, but at the same time not bankrupt us! 

 

She currently does:

one RAD grade class a week

one approx grade/free work class at that level at a different school

2 x free work classes - one at her level, one slightly above

one pointe class (does about half on pointe at present)

one stretching/flexibility class (although could swap this to vocational grade?)

 

Associates fortnightly

plus school lunchtime dance club and an annual term of dancing for PE.

 

The RAD website isn't clear for those who wish to teach ballet in the future whether it's necessary to do grades 6-8 or just vocational grades or both are required.

 

Any suggestions based on experience of what your children did or what helped re vocational school would be great!

Hi. 

My niece is currently at RAD HQ having finished her first year just this week. As part of the  requirements onto the teaching course was that the pupils have completed the numerical grades and vocational up to and incl Adv1. One or two hadn’t but it was agreed that they would take the missing exams during their first year of the course. My niece had so didn’t have the additional work load. Teaching is obviously more particular than vocational school route. After all the graduates will be teaching their own pupils the different levels. So it becomes an integral part of their knowledge. 

If your budget and timetable allow I would definitely recommend your DD does both pathways if she is looking towards teaching. Harder to go backwards later on. 

 

Good Luck. 

[EverHopeful]

The RAD website says you need to have passed Intermediate to get onto the Certificate of Ballet Teaching Studies course. It doesn’t mention having to have done the grades as well so I don’t think it’s an essential requirement but perhaps helpful anyway. 

I would say to follow both pathways - the more training the better. And I guess it would be good to have first hand experience of learning each of the grades for when the time comes to teach them to others. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by DeveloppeD

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Some vocational schools (like RBS) don’t take grades at all but the ones that do tend to put children in for the vocational grades, not the numbered grades (alongside their own non syllabus training). So if your dd wants to audition for a place later on it would be useful for her to be working towards vocational grades. 

 

Intermediate is is a pretty-requisite to get onto a dance exam board teaching diploma & you have to have passed Intermediate before progressing onto Advanced 1.  You don’t HAVE to have passed Inter Foundation and those entering the school in Year 9/10 were often out straight into an Intermediate class. There were a few who entered the school in year 10 who had not taken grades but were asvanved dancers & they were fast tracked through Intermediate so they could get into Adv 1 as soon as possible. 

[Anna C]

Although I don’t *think* the higher grades are essential for teaching, in my opinion they are a welcome contrast to the vocational grades (which, as pps have said, aren’t essential for vocational school but Intermediate at least is for teaching).  RAD Grades 6-8 are lovely, very “dancey”, not overly demanding in that there’s no pointework and they do focus on performing.   You can get them done and dusted in reasonably quick succession too and then concentrate on the vocational grades.  

 

If a teaching career is on the cards at all, either post-professional performing career or instead of, having the higher grades and vocational grades can only be a good thing.

[Cara in NZ]

Just answering the OP about hours, my DD did vocational up to Adv Foundation and they had to do three classes a week (one could be an open class) if they wanted to sit the exam. She  has also done the Grade 6 exam in 2017 and will sit Grade 7 in Aug/Sept. What I would say is that they can do the higher grades on only an hour a week. DD did the exam after a year in Gr 6 and easily got Distinction on an hour a week with a couple of extra classes close to the exam. They've ended up doing Grade 7 for 18 months before the exam, and again it's an hour a week with a few extra classes before the exam. So the class commitment is quite a lot less than for vocational levels.

When you say 'free work', do you mean open classes, ie not based on a set syllabus? These are useful but you don't need more than one a week.

At our (RAD) school the dancers are encouraged to do vocational plus higher grade or Discovering Repertoire. For more recreational dancers who aren't keen on pointe, they can combine higher grades plus Repertoire without pointe. If your DD wants to keep her options open, she probably needs a contemporary class too as this seems to be not negotiable with ballet companies nowadays! Anything else is optional but I'd choose Pilates/pointe conditioning/strengthening over jazz, lyrical, MT type classes unless she is an all-rounder.

Hope that might be some help!

[Paleblueleotard]

Thanks for your thoughts, that's sort of what I suspected in that doing both might be the best way to go. Now to juggle all the after school activities for all family members and the changing of class times and days! It's interesting that if they do a lot of dance then we maybe don't need to do two of the same grade each week - in any case I believe there aren't enough students so the numerical grades and vocational are all just the once a week I think, as the number of children doing ballet seems to drop at about grade 4/5 level.

 

Cara - that's an interesting point re contemporary. I was assuming jazz might be something to add to have a bit of diversity, but maybe not. Will consider that, but we are almost at maximum re my taxi service to ballet and school hours/travel and some time off... She is definitely not into the tap and musical theatre side of things. Discovering Repertoire sounds lovely, but they don't offer that sadly.

[glowlight]

If she wants to keep the option of going to vocational school open for the future I would say, if both is possible, do both.  If you can only manage one go for vocational.  

 

Don't break yourself, or your DD by trying to do too much!

[Cara in NZ]

9 hours ago, Paleblueleotard said:

Cara - that's an interesting point re contemporary. I was assuming jazz might be something to add to have a bit of diversity, but maybe not. Will consider that, but we are almost at maximum re my taxi service to ballet and school hours/travel and some time off... She is definitely not into the tap and musical theatre side of things. Discovering Repertoire sounds lovely, but they don't offer that sadly.

 

I would say that contemporary is almost non-negotiable from age 12. This is the age where they have learned the fundamentals to keep themselves safe from injury, but can start learning to move in different ways. My DD is a law-abiding soul and didn't enjoy it, but the aim of contemporary dance (as far as I can tell) is to learn how to move through space in different ways. You don't really learn that in ballet. My DD had one contemporary solo where her teacher wanted all of her turns to be 'off balance', which she found absolutely revolutionary at age 11, but she gradually figured it out. Ballet is very rules-based up to Grade 5, and then Grade 6-8 is much more about artistry. The vocational levels want you to combine rules with artistry, and contemporary helps you to start pushing your own boundaries safely. But if you look at the repertoire of professional companies now, the modern stuff is frequently a mix of neo-classical and contemporary. So DC looking at vocational training need to have some sort of grounding in contemporary, I think.

The ideal mix around Yr 8-9 for someone auditioning for vocational is probably something like:

2 x RAD vocational
(1 x RAD higher grade — not essential)
1 x pointe conditioning/strengthening (very important in Inter Foundation as there's very little pointework for them to develop strength)
1 x open class
1 x contemporary
(Plus possibly Pilates/flexibility/Progressing Ballet Technique work)

In Yr 8 my DD was doing 9 classes a week (ballet/Pilates/contemporary) and that was too much for us with normal school. But 5-6 classes a week at that age is probably a minimum — if your family can manage it. I only say this because you say she wants to go to vocational school, where she'd be doing a lot more so if she did get in, she would want to start at a similar level to her peers.
 

[2dancersmum]

My DD auditioned successfully for vocational college for 16+ place. I would suggest the focus should be more on vocational grades than grades 6-8 as the vocational grades include pointework and intermediate  is the standard entry point for teaching I believe.  DD's school offered the standard grades alongside as the teacher felt they are very performance based.

DD had:

2 x RAD vocational classes + 1 shorter pointe work class following one of the other classes

2 x grade classes 

1 x open class

1 x jazz 

 

Inter foundation classes ran alongside grade 5 and then grade 6. Intermediate classes ran alongside grade 6 and grade 7. Adv 1 classes ran alongside grade 8 . Order of exams taken : grade 5, inter-foundation , grade 6, intermediate, grade 7, grade 8, adv 1. Int-F and 6 were close together, as were inter +7 and 8+adv 1. My DDs hours did not really increase much beyond that even up to vocational school entry -  - she added in an extra intermediate class just prior to the exam and that continued for about a year after the exam just for more dance time - (we were not charged - she demonstrated for fellow students). She also did a monthly associates class and a monthly workshop. I am aware that for year 10/11 she did less hours than many of her peers but for our location and circumstances that was all that was possible and I would always say that the quality of the teaching is of utmost importance.

[BeaverElliot]

These explanations have all been quite helpful and insightful. There seems to be a consensus of understanding of the accepted stream of development.  

 

What I find intriguing (maddening?) is that the RAD provides no parent-friendly guidance and so one has to either have a good teacher who is knowledgable in these matters (are they taught the streaming when they become RAD certificated teachers?), OR know knowledgable RAD ballet dance moms / post on a public forum in order to be able to learn the unwritten secrets of the trade.  Why does it have to be such a mystery?!

 

No, how should it work for Cecchetti?(!)

 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by BeaverElliot

[Farawaydancer]

3 hours ago, BeaverElliot said:

 

 

What I find intriguing (maddening?) is that the RAD provides no parent-friendly guidance and so one has to either have a good teacher who is knowledgable in these matters (are they taught the streaming when they become RAD certificated teachers?), OR know knowledgable RAD ballet dance moms / post on a public forum in order to be able to learn the unwritten secrets of the trade.  Why does it have to be such a mystery?!

 

 

 

I wouldn’t be taking my dc to a RAD teacher who didn’t understand the gradings, they’re all very well aware of the two systems and should be guiding their students (and parents) through the most appropriate route. 

[Cara in NZ]

I found that teachers tended to explain things to the kids s they got older, who then paraphrased for novice mothers (if feeling kind). And when we started competitions in 2014, the only info I could find was from mothers with slightly older kids. Nothing online as you had to be on each comp society's mailing list to find out about entering. Definitely like a secret society!

[Colman]

Asking the teacher is always a good option: I tend to hope these questions are asked here due to parental diffidence rather than because teachers won’t or can’t answer the question.

[Pups_mum]

4 hours ago, Farawaydancer said:

 

I wouldn’t be taking my dc to a RAD teacher who didn’t understand the gradings, they’re all very well aware of the two systems and should be guiding their students (and parents) through the most appropriate route. 

I agree. I've never met an RAD teacher who couldnt explain the system and give appropriate guidance. I would be very worried if this was the case as its basic stuff. My DD and I were made aware of the different types of exams and what her likely path through them would be pretty early, certainly before she finished primary school. If my child was in a school where the teacher either couldn't or wouldn't share that kind of information then I would be looking to move.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Whilst I agree that RAD teachers generally do know all the ins and outs of the pathway through the grades, what may be available at one school may be very different than what is available at another school due to various factors such as number of students, timetabling, etc and that may colour how a teacher explains things.

 

So a student at a small school where the teacher has opted to only follow the numerical grades with maybe Inter Foundation for the few who are more advanced may need to move schools to one where the vocational grades are routinely offered to all suitable students.  Or a student whose ballet school has decided not to do numerical grades after grade 5 and only do vocational grades (like the vocational schools do) becasue they have a lot of students who aspire to full time training age 16 may prefer to move to another school if they don't want to do or are unsuitable for pointework.

[leotardmum]

we are due to sit grade 5 today on 2 rad classes a week  this year  and exam intensive 5 day course over last holiday block ..... this is minimum to be allowed to sit exams  plus girls expected to do few privates prior......... some girls will divert into grade 6+ for next year and some will go into vocational to do IF (we are RAD )  and then onto intermediate where it looks like a lots of teens drop out due  to more classes / school pressures and pointe work expectations which isnt for every student these days ..... RAD provides graded route which is great to keep kids dancing into teen years .

nearly all ballet girls at our school do contemporary class weekly and jazz and our teachers encourage the jazz -  i think its great fun and does help with keeping them free i think as ballet can really cause some to become technical machines  these days ....

every school can offer different things  to different kids who have diffferent aspirations/needs but a good school if they have the capacity should be able to offer both paths ideally 

yep i note intermediate for any rad teaching cert is needed  i think  ?

our school offers 2 extra classes a week of open work to selected kids aswell - my DD does this aswell as weekly privates - we are in a big school with lots on offer and a timetable that puts classes back to back so kids go from one lesson to another making it easier for pick ups and drop offs and sos carpooling  when needed lol 

 

[balletbean]

On 07/07/2019 at 05:17, Cara in NZ said:

Just answering the OP about hours, my DD did vocational up to Adv Foundation and they had to do three classes a week (one could be an open class) if they wanted to sit the exam. She  has also done the Grade 6 exam in 2017 and will sit Grade 7 in Aug/Sept. What I would say is that they can do the higher grades on only an hour a week. DD did the exam after a year in Gr 6 and easily got Distinction on an hour a week with a couple of extra classes close to the exam. They've ended up doing Grade 7 for 18 months before the exam, and again it's an hour a week with a few extra classes before the exam. So the class commitment is quite a lot less than for vocational levels.

When you say 'free work', do you mean open classes, ie not based on a set syllabus? These are useful but you don't need more than one a week.

At our (RAD) school the dancers are encouraged to do vocational plus higher grade or Discovering Repertoire. For more recreational dancers who aren't keen on pointe, they can combine higher grades plus Repertoire without pointe. If your DD wants to keep her options open, she probably needs a contemporary class too as this seems to be not negotiable with ballet companies nowadays! Anything else is optional but I'd choose Pilates/pointe conditioning/strengthening over jazz, lyrical, MT type classes unless she is an all-rounder.

Hope that might be some help!

Congratulations to your DD.

Thank you for sharing but it does show how many variants there are to training. 

Along with other lessons my DD took RAD Grade 6 in July 2017, Grade 7 Dec 2017, Grade 8 July 2018 and 48hrs later took her Adv Foundation . On average one hour dedicated to each syllabus per week. Taking examinations so close together certainly challenged the old bank account!! Having had no negative impact on the results. 

Sometimes too much focus can be placed on hours in the studio as opposed to quality of hours in the studio. 

My DD started off with 4 in the class but as she was  fast-tracked through the grades she was on her own. The pressure was on but she was determined to complete the Grades before heading off to vocational school. Fortunately her school was on the same track to support her needs. 

Its so good to share everyone’s experiences but I think we can all agree that no two pupils/schools are the same. It’s all down to the individual. There’s no specific time frame either. Access to the correct training can also be more challenging for some. Hence my comment about quality over quantity. 

My DD also avoids MT at all costs (I’m not sure if it’s the pillar box red Lipstick or the actual genre, lol) but does enjoy contemporary. 

[meadowblythe]

True - DS took Advance 1 and Advance 2 once he had started a 16+ vocational - took each on 2 days training at the end of term.  Literally 2 intensive days, take the exam on the 3rd.  No prior preparation just a filler at the end of term.  No impact on results.

[BeaverElliot]

On 15/07/2019 at 05:54, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Whilst I agree that RAD teachers generally do know all the ins and outs of the pathway through the grades, what may be available at one school may be very different than what is available at another school due to various factors such as number of students, timetabling, etc and that may colour how a teacher explains things.

 

So a student at a small school where the teacher has opted to only follow the numerical grades with maybe Inter Foundation for the few who are more advanced may need to move schools to one where the vocational grades are routinely offered to all suitable students.  Or a student whose ballet school has decided not to do numerical grades after grade 5 and only do vocational grades (like the vocational schools do) becasue they have a lot of students who aspire to full time training age 16 may prefer to move to another school if they don't want to do or are unsuitable for pointework.

 

This all sounds very correct, proper and...

byzantine.

 

Can you imagine training doctors, pilots, paramedics and IT specialists using word-of-mouth in 2020?

 

I got to visit the R.A.D. in Battersea last month.

Their planned new digs look great!

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by BeaverElliot

[Picturesinthefirelight]

2 minutes ago, BeaverElliot said:

 

This all sounds very correct, proper and...

byzantine.

 

Can you imagine training doctors, pilots, paramedics and IT specialists using word-of-mouth in 2020?

 

I got to visit the R.A.D. in Battersea last month.

There new digs look great!

 

 

 

But doctors, pilots and paramedics are not trained at local schools where provision is subject to all manner of vagaries with regards to what subjects are offered, in what combination and where students may need to move from a small 6th form to a larger college to access the right subjects. 

 

We are not talking about dance training colleges we are talking about recreational local dance schools.  

[taxi4ballet]

In answer to the original question, if your dd is intending to audition for full-time training at any stage, then she will need to go down the vocational grade route. The RAD numbered grades have no pointework in them at all.

[balletbean]

On 15/07/2019 at 13:54, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Whilst I agree that RAD teachers generally do know all the ins and outs of the pathway through the grades, what may be available at one school may be very different than what is available at another school due to various factors such as number of students, timetabling, etc and that may colour how a teacher explains things.

 

So a student at a small school where the teacher has opted to only follow the numerical grades with maybe Inter Foundation for the few who are more advanced may need to move schools to one where the vocational grades are routinely offered to all suitable students.  Or a student whose ballet school has decided not to do numerical grades after grade 5 and only do vocational grades (like the vocational schools do) becasue they have a lot of students who aspire to full time training age 16 may prefer to move to another school if they don't want to do or are unsuitable for pointework.

I totally get where you are coming from. My DD’s old ballet school currently have a large cohort of students graduating this week heading off to either MT colleges or medical school as they are 18yrs old. There’s then a massive drop for the next noticeable age group that are just 15yrs. (My DD was caught in the middle). 

The studio will therefore have to rewrite their timetable for Sept to take into account the gap in grades and the needs of the pupils. Flexibility is the name of the game but also very challenging. Many people have no idea how complex a studios timetables are to compile each year. Nothing is set in stone. Academic schools however, know that they will have x number of students per year group. Year in year out. Without fail. 

Oh how I don’t envy the Principals/dance teachers at this time of year. 😉

[Kanangra]

Interesting reading. My daughter's school offers both grade and vocational classes. All the students go from grade 5 to Intermediate Foundation and then Intermediate. 
After that the more recreational kids are streamed into grades, and the others do vocational grades. They do 2 syllabus classes a week (with option to do classes above and/or below their actual level, according to need and how it fits into the timetable) and 1 pointe class a week. I believe this is the RAD minimum for each level. There are further options for those who are seriously looking to pursue dance training or who have been identified as having potential to do so. This is not counting classes in other styles, which are also available.

[The_Red_Shoes]

The RAD don't set a number of weekly classes for each grade, only a total number of recommended hours for the whole exam preparation. So fewer classes a week might mean working on that syllabus for several years, especially at vocational level. Lots of students manage the higher grades in a year with only one weekly class.

 

In my school the available classes change from year to year depending on numbers and constrained by the hours in the day. When I started here a couple of years ago there were no Grade 4, 5 or Intermediate Foundation classes, but there was an Intermediate class and an Advanced class. That intermediate class had previously been Grade 6 and before that Intermediate Foundation - the same students and timetable slot, as they progressed. Last year the Intermediate students passed the exam and then mainly went on to vocational training or uni  and that slot in the timetable was given over to an adult beginner class. There is currently a full set of lower grades with the biggest cohort of Grade 5 and Intermediate Foundation students ever, but I am the only student in the school working on exams at a higher level than that (in a private lesson, currently Grade 7). I assume that in a couple of years there will be an Inter class again as those students move through. The Advanced class is ongoing but is currently a non-syllabus class consisting of CAT students who need extra ballet and older teens/adults who are recreational dancers at an advanced level.

[BeaverElliot]

Red Shoes, that is an interesting account and sounds practical.