I’m extremely frustrated

[maggielpz]

I’ve started ballet this year and I’m really in love with it. The thing is... I suck at ballet. Maybe it is because I’ve started not so long ago, but it’s really frustrating. I cannot even do a proper glissade assemble which makes me even more frustrated and angry at myself. I need to better my technique but I don’t know where to start. I also compare myself to others way too much and overthink every single little thing I do, which is extremely distracting and I never fully enjoy a class. 

I need tips on how to be a better ballet dancer and less frustrated, because I’m sure that’s what’s sabotaging everything. 

Thanks and sorry if this post doesn’t make sense...

[Colman]

Well of course you can't, you only just started! If you can do a tendu and a plié right, with proper posture and control, you're doing well. 

 

Are you an adult dancer? 

[maggielpz]

3 minutes ago, Colman said:

Well of course you can't, you only just started! If you can do a tendu and a plié right, with proper posture and control, you're doing well. 

 

Are you an adult dancer? 

Yep. 

[Colman]

Here's a theory I've developed: we don't teach adults to be beginners. People expect to be good at complex things quickly, and feel stupid when they're not. We don't train them to be useless.  We should, because you have to be hopeless* before you can be any good. Things like ballet, horse riding, martial arts all take years to achieve even basic proficiency - in part because you need to learn new things about your body, strengthen and change your body and learn a pile of intellectual things as well. It's not easy and its not quick. A lot of martial artists consider black belt the point at which you're capable of starting to learn properly.

 

I've been doing ballet more and more seriously for three or so years now. I was pleased in the beginners class at Elmhurst the other day when the teacher complimented some tendus I did.

 

Relax, enjoy the journey. 

 

* This is my excuse anyway. 

 

[Jan McNulty]

Hello Maggielpz and welcome to the Forum!

 

I've added a tag "Adult Ballet" to the top of your thread.  If you click on that it will lead you to lots of threads about adult ballet.

 

Good luck with your dancing!

[Kate_N]

5 hours ago, maggielpz said:

I also compare myself to others way too much and overthink every single little thing I do, which is extremely distracting and I never fully enjoy a class. 

 

 

What's that saying: "Comparison is the thief of joy"? That.

 

I was in a lovely class yesterday - one with a real mix from professionals & ex-professionals, to adult hobbyists like me, to quite basic beginners. And the teacher was explaining her specific teaching method about turn out etc. She was stressing very clearly that you work with the body you've got, and the only person you worry about is you.

 

That said, I really enjoy watching other people in class - I learn so much from seeing what other people do and how they negotiate the difficulties. But I've given up comparing myself - my body is my body, and I know its strengths and limitations.

 

Colman's right - adults are not good at learning complex things from scratch. We get very frustrated. BUT - I think there's a huge advantage as well. We KNOW we'll never be professionals. We can relax and just enjoy the learning.

 

How long have you been doing class? Keep a journal - you'll really notice the difference in 6 months. Things that perplexed you then will feel normal in 6 months' time. 

[hfbrew]

Remember that Ballet can feel more difficult than it looks.

[Nicola H]

Adults are bad  at being beginners in anything, often because even if  something is new  in work or (other) passtimes  it's something similar to what we have done before, dance and especially ballet is not like that.  also ballet is hard  and  you have to reprogram  your body - turnout is the classic example of that  and  it;s something which  it may seem a shame to sacrifice  centre time  for in class to do  turnout stuff , but it's worth it

This is  before we consider the differing approaches to  to teaching something to adults  that  is also taught to children ,  some people want to knock some the pedagogy off  and  paint a coat of andragogy  on the topic,  others are prepared to  knock all the  pedagogy off the subject  and  build a complete andragogy approach  ( Leeds  seems to  do that  to people  e.g. both David Kierce and Yoko Ichino have their own  ideas on adult syllabuses - can't compare  them  as  although I've  taken class led  by DPK at  The Ballet retreat, I've not taken one using Ichino's methodology ). 

We see this  expressed often most markedly  in the arguments over whether  adult  dancers should be  entered for  vocational examinations with as little as  3 years of class  and whether adult  syllabuses should integrate aspects of  pre-pointe exercises  from the beginning  or  the first move to  'improvers'  rather than  the move to 'Intermediate'  classes.

"Don't over analyse"  is a phrase that you will hear in adult ballet classes  up and down the  nation, you've seen it  written down in this thread  both by the  contributors and by  them quoting  their regular teachers and  teachers at other classes / workshops / events they have attended. 

also   if you consider the 4 stage model of skills development ,  your mood may well drop  as you move into stage 2 - also  this  happens  multiple times overlapping  with each other in ballet  as  we can consider each exercise or  type of  step   to be separate iteration of theprocess 

stage  1 -  the unconscious incompetent - you  do not know what you do not know 
stage  2 - the conscious incompetent - you now realise how much you do not know 
stage 3 - the conscious competent, - you now know things  and know how to do them , but it takes effort 
stage 4 - the unconscious competent - you know things and you can do them well without thinking  

paert of the problem for adult beginners  is, as i said just above,  the fact this happens multiple times -  unlike  learning to ride a 2 wheel bike  when it happens once  or learnign to swim  where it happens  half a dozen times  ( learning to doggy paddle, learning each of the four/five formal strokes,  learning  'racing'  breathing and turns for the  front strokes)

[Nicola H]

40 minutes ago, hfbrew said:

Remember that Ballet can feel more difficult than it looks.

if it;s easy it;s not ballet  or you aren't  working  hard enough 

[richieN]

Hi @maggielpz

 

No-one is perfect. I can only give you the advice that I give my martial arts students:

 

Be kind to yourself and trust the process. 

 

Being kind to yourself is really key. There is a slight sting with every piece of criticism and correction. But they are given so that you can improve. So don't chastise yourself otherwise your training will become a meditation in self loathing. Be patient. There is a process for getting you good. Trust it. 

[Nicola H]

also corrections are made becasue your teacher(s) want you to be a better dancer !

[trog]

Relax and enjoy class.

 

If you're dancing a sequence and forget the steps, don't panic - it's only dancing and the world won't end. Chuck in a few steps of your own and carry on. A handy little sequence is coupe, chasse, pas de bourrée, run, run pas de chat - fits into almost all centre work.  While in the centre and there is more than one group, try and get into the first group. This can be a bit scarey, because you've only had one mark at the steps but if you mess it up, you can dance it again at the back of the second or third group. Even if you don't mess the sequence up, it's good to have another go.

 

Don't hide at the back. During the barre, stand in the middle, so you have somebody to copy on both sides if needed. Personally, I like to stand at the front - there is always plenty of room at the front and you can see the teacher clearly. On the other hand, people like to copy who is at the front and if you get it wrong, the entire row will follow. Still, as I said before, it's only dancing.

 

Finally, if in doubt, ask the teacher. In my experience, they are always happy to demonstrate again. They are usually happy to demo something to you personally after class too.

 

BTW, I used to be like you, over analysing myself and trying to hard. However, I stuck with it and it all started to make some sort of sense.

 

Above all, carry on!

 

 

[Nicola H]

25 minutes ago, trog said:

Relax and enjoy class.

 

If you're dancing a sequence and forget the steps, don't panic - it's only dancing and the world won't end. Chuck in a few steps of your own and carry on. A handy little sequence is coupe, chasse, pas de bourrée, run, run pas de chat - fits into almost all centre work.  While in the centre and there is more than one group, try and get into the first group. This can be a bit scarey, because you've only had one mark at the steps but if you mess it up, you can dance it again at the back of the second or third group. Even if you don't mess the sequence up, it's good to have another go.

 

Don't hide at the back. During the barre, stand in the middle, so you have somebody to copy on both sides if needed. Personally, I like to stand at the front - there is always plenty of room at the front and you can see the teacher clearly. On the other hand, people like to copy who is at the front and if you get it wrong, the entire row will follow. Still, as I said before, it's only dancing.

 

Finally, if in doubt, ask the teacher. In my experience, they are always happy to demonstrate again. They are usually happy to demo something to you personally after class too.

 

BTW, I used to be like you, over analysing myself and trying to hard. However, I stuck with it and it all started to make some sort of sense.

 

Above all, carry on!

 

 

don;t hide  at the back is  good advice . 

where you stand at the barre is always a  thorny one ,  small classes  not so important,

really big classes  not so important  especially  when you've multiple portable barres in the centre and  numbers mean you  have to have people facing both ways all the time  ( where  was the 'front'  at Leeds TBR for the  company/ technique classes  ?  the piano ? the barre DPK was stood near at the time he explained a point or  gave a correction  for  group consumption ? )

however in those awkward medium sized classes the teacher  may have ideas  on whom they  want  where along each barre in use  -  in the middle of a barre ( assuming long barres in use )  is usually a 'safe' place , 'head ' and 'foot' of the barre  may have to be 'earnt' in some places  - although sometimes being at the foot of  a long barre is worse  as in the direction where you are the 'front' the teacher may not be visible  

where there are groups going early  is good  as you  can sneak a 2nd chance attempt  if the numbers are ok  . If you are worried aobut sticking out  try to be in a group with people of a similar height / similar ground covering ability ...   ( and that's not a gender/sex  thing if you are 5'10" with 32-34 in inside legs you will cover more ground  whether boy, girl or anything else than someone who is 5'5" with 28in inside legs  -  yes  testosterone posessing  dancers will  likely cover even more  distance in grand jetes etc because  moar powah arf arf arf ... but it doesnt  change the fact a 6ft  ballerina is a 6ft ballerina  regardless  of what she was assigned at birth  )

don;t be afraid to ask  , a teaching point is a teaching point , if you aren't sure someone else probably is , if  you or someone else is getting  placement  or  origin of movement wrong  others likely will be  or  can benefit from it being checked and reinforced. 

 

[LinMM]

I'm not sure about moods changing/improving as you reach different Stages etc ...I seem to go through the whole gamut just in ONE class sometimes lol! Depending on how the different exercises in the class come off! 

Definitely don't compare yourself to anyone else....it's bad enough just comparing yourself to yourself.......I'm sure most dancers know it........pirouettes fine in one class and terrible just a couple of days later....or absolutely on balance in adage work one class and then it's wobble wobble wobble in the next. Right up to speed in a fast petit allegro one day standing around half way through in a complete muddle  the next! All very frustrating!! 

 

But Ballet is a difficult Art and you are using the whole of your body so not surprising it doesn't always come together as you may wish it too 

Nobody who had just started to learn the piano would expect to be able to play a Chopin concerto in just a few months after all!!

It takes years and years of practice to get to this level and ballet is no different.

I think an important part of your post was you said you are" really in love with it" Hopefully this should see you through some difficult times!!

Try not to be so hard on yourself .....I'm guessing you are fairly young still ( under 30!) Things are often a lot more intense when so young but all that gets easier as you get older too!!

 

 

 

[Kate_N]

I think Trog's advice is excellent - about positioning yourself in class so that you gain from the more experienced dancers around you - learn from them, rather than comparing yourself. And I'm a great fan of staying at the front - there's always more space there, particularly in beginner's classes (but I rarely go in the front or in the first group of advanced classes!) The main thing for beginners in the centre practice, in my view, is to keep out of the way of other dancers! It's my main aim in centre practice, to be honest. I was dancing for a while without contact lenses, and can't keep my glasses on when I'm moving or turning, and my main aim was just to keep out of the way.

 

Learning something of the etiquette of a ballet class also helps - there is a kind of hierarchy or set of formal behaviours that help, I think, for people finding their way. But it's rarely taught to adult beginners. My list/advice would be:

On the barre:

* Unless instructed, exercises start with the left hand on the barre

* Don't talk or giggle through the teacher's explanation of an exercise

* If you think you're going to kick someone in an exercise, angle yourself away from the barre (eg grande battements devant/in front) or towards the barre (eg grande battements derriere/to the back)

* Consider where you are in relation to others on the barre. Try to space evenly

 

In centre practice:

* fast turners first

* longest legs last 

* Don't dither in groups to start an exercise from the corner. Either step up to do it, or stand back so it's clear you're not going yet

* If you're going across the floor for a second time with another group, be polite about it - look to see if there's anyone else who hasn't had a turn yet. Let everyone have a first go before you go a second time, particularly if there's only one chance to do the combination.

* Think about spacing: ideally we should stand in straight lines horizontally (ie people either side of you) and in between the gap between the people in front of you, so everyone can see the mirror. Ideally, a teacher should rotate the front line, but often they don't.

* men jump after women (often their music is slower so they can jump higher, & they will have adjustments to the combinations, particularly some pirouette exercises & grande allegro)

*if you get lost in centre practice, try to keep going the same way as the rest of the combination (I once had an inexperienced dancer do her own thing during grande jetes, and I only just managed to avoid both kicking her & falling over her - it could have been nasty).

 

And a common-sense rule that I find very frustrating if not observed: dancers doing the combination ALWAYS have right of way. If you've finished a combination, get out of the way. Run forwards out of the centre space, not backwards. Give people turning enough room to turn. I've actually had people get in the way of my pirouette preparation - they get hit by my arms. 

 

That can sound aggressive to a beginner, but it's not. It's common sense. Part of what we learn in a group class which is very important, is not just where we are in the space, but where we are in relation to others, and having consideration for other's space as well as our own.

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Kate_N

[RuthE]

1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

That can sound aggressive to a beginner, but it's not. It's common sense. Part of what we learn in a group class which is very important, is not just where we are in the space, but where we are in relation to others, and having consideration for other's space as well as our own.

 

I'm not physically co-ordinated, in fact probably borderline dyspraxic, and have never studied ballet beyond one term of absolute beginner classes. But actually ALL of what you said sounds like basic common sense manners which I'd expect sentient humans not to need telling.

 

That is, like so many other things that people DO for some reason need telling.

[Nicola H]

@Kate_N  it almost sounds as though your teacher is trying to pack too many students into the studio space available  and/or doesn't have enough barre length available ( is there a rule of thumb for barre length  especially is using 'long' barres  rather  than  'short' portables  for 2 or 4 adults  - 1 or 2 a side)...  but regardless of space / numbers the right of way stuff is important  as is  trying to get an idea of  everyone gettign their 'first' go before you  snaeak a second go at a centre  exercise

interested at your longest legs last comment - surely  the long legged  cover more ground  ? 


 

[alison]

On 19/10/2017 at 08:42, Kate_N said:

I think Trog's advice is excellent - about positioning yourself in class so that you gain from the more experienced dancers around you - learn from them, rather than comparing yourself. And I'm a great fan of staying at the front - there's always more space there, particularly in beginner's classes (but I rarely go in the front or in the first group of advanced classes!) The main thing for beginners in the centre practice, in my view, is to keep out of the way of other dancers! It's my main aim in centre practice, to be honest. I was dancing for a while without contact lenses, and can't keep my glasses on when I'm moving or turning, and my main aim was just to keep out of the way.

 

Learning something of the etiquette of a ballet class also helps - there is a kind of hierarchy or set of formal behaviours that help, I think, for people finding their way. But it's rarely taught to adult beginners. My list/advice would be:

On the barre:

* Unless instructed, exercises start with the left hand on the barre

* Don't talk or giggle through the teacher's explanation of an exercise

* If you think you're going to kick someone in an exercise, angle yourself away from the barre (eg grande battements devant/in front) or towards the barre (eg grande battements derriere/to the back)

* Consider where you are in relation to others on the barre. Try to space evenly

 

In centre practice:

* fast turners first

* longest legs last 

* Don't dither in groups to start an exercise from the corner. Either step up to do it, or stand back so it's clear you're not going yet

* If you're going across the floor for a second time with another group, be polite about it - look to see if there's anyone else who hasn't had a turn yet. Let everyone have a first go before you go a second time, particularly if there's only one chance to do the combination.

* Think about spacing: ideally we should stand in straight lines horizontally (ie people either side of you) and in between the gap between the people in front of you, so everyone can see the mirror. Ideally, a teacher should rotate the front line, but often they don't.

* men jump after women (often their music is slower so they can jump higher, & they will have adjustments to the combinations, particularly some pirouette exercises & grande allegro)

*if you get lost in centre practice, try to keep going the same way as the rest of the combination (I once had an inexperienced dancer do her own thing during grande jetes, and I only just managed to avoid both kicking her & falling over her - it could have been nasty).

 

And a common-sense rule that I find very frustrating if not observed: dancers doing the combination ALWAYS have right of way. If you've finished a combination, get out of the way. Run forwards out of the centre space, not backwards. Give people turning enough room to turn. I've actually had people get in the way of my pirouette preparation - they get hit by my arms. 

 

That can sound aggressive to a beginner, but it's not. It's common sense. Part of what we learn in a group class which is very important, is not just where we are in the space, but where we are in relation to others, and having consideration for other's space as well as our own.

 

 

This post needs pinning.   Not to mention printing out and pinning to people's noticeboards where available

[Kate_N]

Oh gosh <blush> I always worry that I'm too bossy! But I do get frustrated by the blithe ignoring of simple sensible guidelines or principles in the studio.

 

I think it's because adult beginners are rarely taught the kinds of "etiquette" that we learn in children's classes. It's not really etiquette, but common sense, and safety, really. And if you mention it to adult beginners within the class, in my experience beginner dancers can get a bit huffy - such as "If you move a little to the left/up the barre/ step forward then we'll all have more room to dance" - I said this to a beginner once, who put herself  far too close to me at the barre - doing a forward port de bras, my arm would have hit her, and my nose was practically on her bottom  - and I asked her (quietly & politely, or so I thought) to move up the barre a bit, please, because I was afraid I would hit her in an exercise. After the class she came up to me, quite cross and loudly berated me for embarrassing her. I just said I was afraid of hitting her. But what can you say, really if people don't realise? She thought I was ticking her off, I was just trying to help (and maybe teach a little, as I'm a teacher!). Sticky all round really. I could see why she was upset, even though she was not really justified in being upset. 

 

I just wish teachers would attend to this in classes. Just the simple edict: "Those doing the exercise have right of way"

[Fiz]

The ballet teachers I have had have always made sure we were angled across the barre in such cases. I guess I was lucky. 

[alison]

Not always the case with me.  I distinctly remember having had to rein myself in on several occasions over the years to avoid hitting the person in front of me while doing grands battements.  And having to avoid other people's feet during the same exercise.

[LinMM]

I am sure this is a 'London" problem ....because of the much larger classes. 

You would think people would have the sense to turn either in or away from the barre in some exercises when it's a busy class but unfortunately some don't .....a sort of lack of awareness of their own length of leg size!! 

In smaller classes it isn't a problem and in more graded classes the etiquette as it were still seems to be taught by the teachers ....out of London at least. 

I think I've said before but  when in large London classes I prefer the teacher to divide into three/ four groups etc at the end of the barre so everyone knows ( or should know) when to do their bit in the centre....and I'm only okay with second triers...eg already had their turn ....if they go to the BACK of the group who is supposed to be in the centre at that moment. 

[Kate_N]

Agreed, Lin. But I've been in crowded studios everywhere!

[LinMM]

I'm sure in some of the bigger cities and dance centres that is the case.

 

once in a London class I counted 40 people even though we had to sign in our names as a class may be deemed as "full" at some point!

I was wondering how many would be allowed in before it was "full"

In that particular class the barre was fine but when we came into the centre the teacher just said get yourselves into three or four groups

Ha ha NO CHANCE of that.

people didn't know which group to put themselves in so there was a lot of dithering with perhaps a group of six and then a group of twelve  and then people dancing in EVERY group as far as I could see ....running in at the last minute right in front of other dancers grrrrrrr!

Needless to say I've never returned to that class though the teacher was okay etc just couldn't stand the general chaos and unease of the centre practice. 

I was wondering though who controls the numbers attending a class ....is it the teacher or the studio? 

If it's the teacher then allowing much more than 30 into a class should be max I think......unless they can be more proactive in organising the class. 

Its the same with workshops 

When you've paid £50 or more for a days workshop you don't want to be one of 60!! Well slight exaggeration I know but whoever is giving the workshop should have some sort of upper limit....and I'm sure some do otherwise sort of limits what you can get out of it I think.

[Fiz]

I have a London dance friend who agrees with you, Lin. There are always far too many people in her class and far too many who are not spatially aware so there are always accidents or near accidents. It isn’t good enough.

[hfbrew]

Ok a bit of self publicity here! My adult Ballet class is tiny! If anyone wants to travel to St Albans pm me. I even employ a pianist...

Helen Brewer

[LinMM]

I would like to add that I was one of the ditherers on occasions as well!! 

 

Its just that as you sort of line up to go you are trying to work out who in front of you is going to join the next group and then at the last minute someone steps aside and it's either run in and cut across someone ....a definite no no ...or wait till the next round ....and then just as you prepare to go the next time another three people decide to join the group at the last minute  and invariably join too close in front or to the side ....so it's go and risk collision .....or have to think quickly on feet to find a way through ....okay I can do this ....but prefer to be concentrating on the steps etc not avoiding the dancer to my right!! 

Anyway these days I do try to avoid overcrowded classes for the studio size .....which is up in London for me ....as in Brighton most of the time you usually only need two groups anyway. 

However yes I know I'm an adult etc but why can't the teacher just go down the line counting and say " right this is group one .....this is group two....this is group three ...and so on and so on ...would take less than a minute and make life so much easier for those in the class!!

 

[Fiz]

I will never forget almost being jete-ed into by one of the twenty year olds in one class who snarled “Move!” from one side of her mouth and smiled with the other side!