Over training

[annaliesey]

I read this article today and thought I would share it here as I'm very interested in the topic of over training at the moment and would be interested in other people's views

 

http://m.smh.com.au/national/ambitious-child-dancers-at-high-risk-of-injuries-20150710-gi92tb.html

 

This topic came up about a month ago when at my DD's CAT interview we were spoken with about the risks of overtraining

 

I had never heard that term before and my first reaction was to think there was no such thing as surely you couldn't train too much at this age

 

But it's interesting what ive been reading since then. Not just the physical side but mental health too

[Harwel]

I think this is a very real problem in some schools. In a previous school we were attached to, they had no concept of growth and even said that tall dancers weren't as good as small dancers. They also pushed the children when they were way too tired - sometimes having rehearsals for 9 hours straight on a Sunday. And this is for children of 11+. These type of teachers are all about themselves and their perceived status in the locality through festivals and competitions, but have no actual regard for the children they have in Front of them, or the concept of development.

 

And as for 'tilts' and over splits, I think they shouldn't be allowed in a reputable school. The strain this puts on lower backs, hips and knees when a young body is developing, in my opinion is negligent.

[annaliesey]

Thanks Harwel

 

Over splits are very popular at our school along with other flexibility stretches and a small amount of acro

 

If this is such a real thing then how come teachers don't seem to recognise it? I asked our teacher her opinion and was essentially told that it referred to mental rather than physical well being

 

Do you think there's a difference between qualified and unqualified teachers as this article suggests?

[Anon2]

Thank you for posting as I found it interesting. Over the years my dd been a vocational pupil I've noticed an increase in the number 'off dance' due to injury and not just at dd school but across her friends at other schools. The injuries seem to be more prominent in those that spend hours of their free time in the studio practicing unsupervised and post photos of themselves in amazing poses.

 

DD can have 6 - 7 hours of dance timetabled per day so is physically and mentally drained at the end of it just needing a bath and her bed ready for the next day. Some will push themselves beyond their limits, some will thrive on it but many will cause their growing bodies damage and unfortunately miss out on what they have been working hard for - shows and exams.

[sarahw]

Annaliesey I think this is a real issue. In the last couple of years I think the Dance Moms style has been increasingly influential. You notice it a lot at festivals and as Jane says the kids post a lot of poses.

 

There seems to be a blurring of the lines between dance/gymnastics and contortionism. And most of it doesn't even look nice IMO. My dd is very flexible but I actively discourage the 'over' stretching. Any potential damage may not show for some years but cannot be undone. Joints are limited in their range of movement for good reason usually.

 

The sexualisation is more of a personal opinion I think. Mine is that Dance Moms and similar encourage a style of dancing that is over-sexualised and the outfits and make-up accentuate it. We do not do our girls a favour by bypassing childhood. I am not against festivals etc - dd does them - but age appropriate is key.

 

Mental burn out definitely happens. I can't believe how much some youngsters are doing and they can't keep it up.

 

Rant over!!

[annaliesey]

It's a topic that's really got me thinking at the moment. 

 

On the one hand I think it makes sense... if you are too obsessed mentally with something it stands to reason  you may lose your spark and love of something when doing it for a living later on. My husband certainly says he relates to that with art and his portrait painting. 

 

Plus the physical risks on young bodies .. it's bound to increase the risk of injuries.. or is it safe if you have good teachers?

 

But then reading the comments made by Akram Khan, Hofesh Schechter and DV8's Lloyd Newson. ..I wonder if we are actually 'mollycoddling" our dancers somewhere along the line. 

 

At age 11 / year 7 the vocational schools offer about 9 hours a week of dance as I understand it. My dd already does about 12 hours a week (15 classes) excluding other extra curricular stuff such as pantomimes, english youth ballet etc. Plus she does competitions. I wonder how this compares internationally and where the maximum limit really should be in terms of over-training at certain age points.  

 

(We don't actually go to many 'festivals' and prefer the american style competitions as actually a lot of the acro is kept to the acro sections and the festivals are a bit fuddy duddy for us with adjudicators comments being a bit odd from our experiences but that's another story.)

[anondancer_15]

seeing all this just kinda makes me feel like I don't do enough! not suggesting that overtraining is a a positive thing at all but at the end of the day these kids are getting more training, when I was 10 I was only doing 1 hour a week!

[Harwel]

 

 

If this is such a real thing then how come teachers don't seem to recognise it?

 

Do you think there's a difference between qualified and unqualified teachers as this article suggests?

Edited July 16, 2015 by Harwel

[drdance]

I saw this same article posted on Facebook and I will write here much the same as I commented there at the time.

 

Overtraining (also known as burnout) IS a real thing. Without being too boring and sciencey, its effects are both physical and mental. Physically it's to do with raised stress hormones such as cortisol, which leads to poor physical performance, increased inflammatory responses (pain, redness, swelling) and slowed down recovery. Psychological elements include drop in interest and motivation, tiredness, depression. Overtraining syndrome been recognised in sports for a long time, and yet in dance there is still a cultural idea that more is better, especially in the run up to shows and competitions. Ask any athlete (even people who are 'recreational' runners) what they do in the days before their event and they will tell you that they 'taper'. This means they reduce their training so that all the hard work is stopped a couple of weeks before, and all they do is just enough to keep their body working well but don't intend on developing any more fitness, strength, precision, skill, accuracy etc etc 

 

There is a fine line between training hard to reach a physical and mental peak, but not pushing too hard to end up overtrained/burnt out. It's an area that sports physiologists and psychologists are constantly working on; trying to find out that balance. The higher profile the athlete, the more controlled the training schedule. (I remember an excellent talk at university where visitors working with young English (or team GB) elite athletes came in to talk about the schedule for their training camps. It was fascinating how every minute of these kids days was mapped out to balance sleep (45 minute naps during the day), every ounce of food was carefully measured to provide exactly the right amount of energy for training, protein for building strength, vitamins, minerals, water etc etc)

 

There is also the issue that in dance, much as in gymnastics, the bulk of the strength/flexibility/technique training and development comes during the teenage years. Therefore it is imperative that those people who are working in this field have a complete understanding for what all of this is doing to young bodies! It is my educated (in that I have a high level of education in teaching, as well as in the field of sports and dance science/medicine) opinion that oversplits are becoming a 'necessary evil' of dance training in youngsters. Extreme ranges of motion have always existed at the higher end of vocational training, and professional dancers are often seen stretching beyond splits so it's nothing new, it's just become more prevalent due to social media, tv etc. This type of flexibility is likely to result in looser hip ligaments and reduced proprioception, which can predispose dancers to injury. However, this can be countered with sufficient strength training throughout the whole range of motion, as well as care and attention to postural control and core strength, and proprioception training. 

 

However, with the 'instagram' explosion seeing teenagers desperate to post photos of themselves in 'tilts' or 'oversplits' I do worry that students themselves, or teachers, will focus on the stretching/flexibility part of this and neglect to balance it with the strength training needed.

 

As another note - I also do not like the American/Australian influence of children and teenagers in little shorts and crop tops. I will always insist on a full leotard and tights for over the age of 11/12 if not younger!

Edited July 16, 2015 by drdance

[Harwel]

Oh boy, I just spent ages on a post which seems to have got lost! Now I've lost the will to try again!!!! But in answer to the above post by annaliesy. I do think some teachers recognise over training and are very good at what they do. The are well qualified, empathetic and have the best interests of their students at heart. Unfortunately, not all teachers are equal.

 

Have to stop there - got to go to work!

[MumToTu]

Speaking as a mum whose DD does ballet and tap classes a maximum 4 hours a week term time only. I think what she does is just right for her, but every child is different and she does do a little gymnastics too. But, I always watch for overtraining signs, or burn out.

 

I am so curious how earth dance schools train acro skills in facilities without trampolines and bouncy tracks, I can't imagine dd performing these skills regularly at a dance studio with just mats. I thought that acro was best only for fast twitch muscle types? Do dance school that compete select suitable candidates for invitation only classes which compete? Or is the acro just cartwheels etc? I have never been to a UK dance comp lol. The dancers on the American Dance Moms do fascinate my dd, she loves their costumes, but not the make up, she has never worn makeup. It all sound quite expensive for parents too, what with travelling to competitions and costumes etc!

Edited July 16, 2015 by Snowflake

[Vonrothbart]

Quality rather than quantity comes to mind, and as for dance moms, no thank you.

[Dance*is*life]

I think it's very important to recognise when enough is enough. We had an intensive couple of weeks preparing for the school end of year performances. When my Intermediate class (who are really promising and very dedicated)had their last rehearsal with me, I could see they were worn out. When they told me that the modern teacher wanted to add on an extra rehearsal the next day and that they felt they just couldn't cope with it, I turned to the Principal and asked her to release them - she officially gave them the next day off as had been planned originally and they were so relieved! An extra rehearsal might sound good, but if they are exhausted they won't benefit from it anyway. These kids are working so hard all year, both at regular school and at dancing, and I think it is the duty of all teachers to be careful that they don't burn out. When they are too tired, that's when injuries occur and that's the last thing anyone wants.......

[Dance*is*life]

By the way - I hate this over-flexibility - we want to see dancers - not acrobats. IMO there's a point at which an arabesque line loses its beauty when it's distortedly high. But then I'm old school - sigh - very old school

[sarahw]

I agree on the lines. I don't think dancing benefits from impinging onto gymnastics. I'm not a dancer but can see when the line is crossed. ...

[Harwel]

By the way - I hate this over-flexibility - we want to see dancers - not acrobats. IMO there's a point at which an arabesque line loses its beauty when it's distortedly high. But then I'm old school - sigh - very old school

.

 

I completely agree. The lines, IMO have become ugly.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Harwel

[annaliesey]

Thank you Dr dance .. I'm going to google proprioception and try and understand a bit more about the strength training my dd does. Up until last term she was taking a class with gym balls and doing pillates style training for core strength but due to timetable clashes she couldn't do that last term.

 

Most of other strength training that she does is either just warm up routines or she will do things at home (planks mostly !)

 

The 'acro' is a bit DIY in places unfortunately. We've worked with a local gym using their training staff and facilities but practised certain things at the studio inbetween gym sessions. Things such as walkovers, round offs. The dance school teachers things such as chin stands and toe rises though!

 

There are dance syllabuses that have acro in it I believe with ITDA but our school is rad and ISTD so we don't follow an acro syllabus

 

Unfortunately there is a huge amount of 'tutorials' on YouTube and I catch my dd watching them fairly often and then showing me what she can do. She's actually just learned side aerials this way mostly.

 

But it's a difficult balance between her doing what she absolutely loves without fear of injury and no tiredness in sight and me fretting away as a worried parent in the background

 

I hate hearing in classes or rehearsals the 'suck it up' attitude of teachers sometimes when they appear to be a bit tired or flagging and I thought this was usual!

 

As for expense of American comps they've worked out cheaper than all england for example as even though the entrance fees are £20 as opposed to £5/£8 they include spectators wristbands in the price whereas some festivals you pay to watch each session per spectator

 

But yes, some of the clothes can be a bit inappropriate if we mean cropped tops and shorts as that seems to be the uniform with a tuft of tutu net on the side

[MumToTu]

That's enlightened me, acro is a dance genre! I was totally confusing the term acro with flighted acrobatic skills in gymnastics, ie somersaults and flicks etc and thinking that sounds a little dangerous to be taught in a dance studio type set up lol!

 

They don't teach this style at Dds dance school, but I think dd may have watched the dancers on dance moms performing it. My dd would love it I am sure. If the skills are non flighted it sounds safe enough, I still have so much to learn about the dance world :-)

Edited July 17, 2015 by Snowflake

[annaliesey]

People use the word 'acro' sometimes to refer to all the bendy stuff too ie; chinstands, scorpion dance pose, walkovers, bridges, tilts, etc which I guess are not 'flighted' in the same way as you might refer to somersaults.

 

The training can then be about the bendy stuff regards over training and the scorpion gets a specific mention in that Australian article.

 

I think we should all interested as more and more dancers and dance schools are 'having a go' at teaching things when there isn't the qualification or experienced or facilities to prevent injuries. I know all we can do is educate our DD/DS's to be careful and apply some common sense but it can be difficult if everyone is 'having a go!'  

 

She did learn a lesson a while ago when she thought she had broken her foot and that was at a little girls birthday party in an (olympic!) gym when they were invited to jump off the trampettes and she didnt know what she was doing and jumped off the side of her foot!  That was in a top class establishment but there wasn't the actual training or supervision from what she has said.

 

It's probably the constant stretching that sticks in my mind. She cannot even stand and have a conversation in my kitchen without deciding to lift her leg up or do a little plie ... is this normal?  She will sit in the splits to do her homework for example too and I just wonder whether she is too obsessed and if I am worrying unnecessarily or if all young dancers are like this? And even if it is normal to think about dance so much throughout a normal day, should this level of stretching that she does be calmed down a bit because of things that Dr dance has mentioned about loose joints/ligaments etc. 

[MumToTu]

Your dd sounds so hard working and dedicated annaliesey, she must love dance with such a passion, how old is she? :-)

Edited July 17, 2015 by Snowflake

[Harwel]

Dancing kids are always stretching, twirling, jeteing, rising and plieing. They just can't stay still. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

 

There are very specific things which indicate overtraining: Insomnia, depression, personality changes, lowered immunity, aswel as a higher incidence of injury etc.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Harwel

[Billyelliott]

I've constantly to remind mine that the kitchen is it a dance studio! It's normal for them to be constantly twirling and bending and sticking a leg up near an ear ....

[Pas de Quatre]

When dd was still at home, we would come back together after class and get dinner.  I would usually do the meat/fish and she would do the veg, generally with her leg up on the sink to stretch as she was doing so! Sitting in splits while doing something else is another common form of multi-tasking.

[hfbrew]

My mum used to call me loony in the lounge as I was always stretching,dancing and generally being a distraction.

 

And I simply could not pass the downstairs mirror without doing some sort of attitude or arabesque.

 

So sorry parents, all normal behaviour for dance struck offspring!

[Cara in NZ]

By the way - I hate this over-flexibility - we want to see dancers - not acrobats. IMO there's a point at which an arabesque line loses its beauty when it's distortedly high. But then I'm old school - sigh - very old school

I'm SO HAPPY to see others saying what I've been thinking for ages! I thought I was just being fuddy-duddy, but I cannot see the beauty in, for example, La Esmeralda variations with the foot just about kicking the head in ultra-high attitude derriere!

[Fiz]

There is a vulgar part of me that loves it when the dancer kicks the tambourine over her head. I was taking about ultra flexibility to my ex dd before she went to work just now, though, and we both felt that over flexibility is acrobatics or gymnastics, not dance.