People who just don't understand!

[Fiz]

I was told at my grammar school that I certainly would not be allowed to do a typing course as part of my non syllabus studies as it was for "the less clever members of the Sixth Form"! So several years later my kind in laws paid for me to do a typing course in London.

[taxi4ballet]

People with no experience of the dance world just won't understand, however well-meaning they are. It's the same with music or drama. Most of us are so focused on taking the commonly prescribed steps through school, then on to university or into a training programme/apprenticeship or a career that anyone who deviates from that path, especially when they have the academic ability to pursue a 'normal' route via university is considered odd.

Actually, while dd was still at school, her head of year was lovely and really understanding, and genuinely thrilled when she got a place at vocational school instead of going into their 6th-form to do A-levels.

 

Not long before she left, he asked me whether it would be possible to use her story as an example when talking to year 9 pupils, so he could explain that there are many different career options out there (and many different pathways), and that actually you don't have to follow the 'usual' A-level / university path in order to achieve your ambitions.

 

(Funnily enough, her head of year was a drama teacher)

Edited September 13, 2016 by taxi4ballet

[balletbean]

I was at a party when I told this lady my daughter left her grammar school at 16 to go to a dance school and wouldn't be doing A'levels (nobody knows what a vocational school is outside the dance world) and the woman patted me on the arm and said sympathetically "not everyone can be academic".  10 years on DD is still dancing and being paid for it!

What so many outside the ballet circle don't understand is that those that pursue Ballet vocational training are highly intelligent often balancing A levels AND dance training. Spending hours upon hours in the classrooms and studios then maintain their training throughout their working life, unlike Uni students who quite often spend hours and hours in the bar interrupted by a few lectures a week. Makes me so mad that so many people treat the performing ARTS as a cop out for those that failed at school!!!

Edited September 13, 2016 by balletbean

[taxi4ballet]

Uni students who quite often spend hours and hours in the bar 

...unlike ballet students who spend hours and hours at the barre!

[Harwel]

Actually, while dd was still at school, her head of year was lovely and really understanding, and genuinely thrilled when she got a place at vocational school instead of going into their 6th-form to do A-levels.

 

Not long before she left, he asked me whether it would be possible to use her story as an example when talking to year 9 pupils, so he could explain that there are many different career options out there (and many different pathways), and that actually you don't have to follow the 'usual' A-level / university path in order to achieve your ambitions.

 

(Funnily enough, her head of year was a drama teacher)

This is lovely when it happens, we have had some lovely comments from teachers over the years, and my younger son still gets teachers asking how his older brother is doing with his dance training. Unfortunately, there are far more who have no idea, which is fine, there's lots that I don't know about, I just wish they would try to inform themselves before putting their big fat feet in it.

 

As for the 'Billy Elliott' comment, I think I could pay a terms school fees if I had a £ for every such comment. And the looks I get when I try and explain that my son could never be a Billy because he hit the maximum height requirement by the time he was 10! Absolutely nothing to do with his ability.....

[Huddsballetmum]

I had to laugh when he came home and told me - apparently he stood there, mouth opening and closing like a goldfish  

 

There's another parent who says things like "Is she still doing her dancing?" (teamed with a sympathetic never mind, she'll grow out of it head tilt - you know the one!!)

I get that a lot, followed by "will we see her on telly some day?".  I just smile and nod 

[taxi4ballet]

I get that a lot, followed by "will we see her on telly some day?".  I just smile and nod 

Somewhere there is probably a forum where the parents of young choristers/violinists are talking about being asked much the same thing!

Edited September 13, 2016 by taxi4ballet

[Guest]

I was told at my grammar school that I certainly would not be allowed to do a typing course as part of my non syllabus studies as it was for "the less clever members of the Sixth Form"! So several years later my kind in laws paid for me to do a typing course in London.

Oh that struck a chord! Our headmistress explained that 'typing wasn't a suitable activity for young ladies hoping to go to university'. In fairness to her I didn't use a computer until my 2nd year at uni (a computer programmed in Basic that would induce fits of hysteria in my children) and when I began in my present line of work 25 years ago I even had a secretary (well half of one) to do the keyboard stuff. How things change and how I have often wished that those in education were gifted with a crystal ball - don't even get me started about slide rules (calculators were banned for being too expensive) oh and finally  - dd saw a rotary dial phone and asked how you stored your favourites in it. All you can conclude is that the future be very different from the past, in ways that we don't yet know, and impossible to predict what skills will be useful and what will not.

[Colman]

All those teachers who used to say "You won't always have a calculator with you!" ⌚

[Pups_mum]

Somewhere there is probably a forum where the parents of young choristers/violinists are talking about being asked much the same thing!

I'm sure you are right! Likewise my cycling son is somewhat irritated by well meaning people asking him if he's "the next Bradley Wiggins", particularly as Sir Brad doesn't even feature on his list of heroes. But most of the population have probably never even heard of the people that he does aspire to emulate, in the same way as Darcey Bussell is the only dancer that most people can name I suppose. Basically, whatever the field, if you aren't part of the "tribe" you probably don't fully understand. Thank goodness for forums like this! I do wonder how people managed before the internet. I would have been totally clueless about any of my children's interests if it wasn't for websites and forums full of people who DO get it!

[Dance*is*life]

I nagged and nagged my parents to remove me from my grammar school and send me to a full time performing arts day school.  Eventually they agreed and we notified the school.  To my astonishment the headmistress (think tweed suit, brogues, hair in a bun type) came out of her inner sanctum and entered our lowly classroom for the sole purpose of trying to change my mind!   But what will you do if you don't succeed at this dancing - you won't be able to go on to university?  Well, I replied, blithely, I can always be a housewife!!!!!!1  She gave up after that!   When I actually got a degree with First Class Honours nearly 4 decades later, through the RAD, I thought of dear old Miss McCauley and wished I could have said -See!!!!!!!  I danced professionally, I teach professionally and I even have a B.Phil.Hons in Ballet and Contextual Studies through Durham University! 

 

It is awfully sad though that more than half a century later, people still don't understand.........................

Edited September 13, 2016 by Dance*is*life

[Legseleven]

Actually, while dd was still at school, her head of year was lovely and really understanding, and genuinely thrilled when she got a place at vocational school instead of going into their 6th-form to do A-levels.

 

Not long before she left, he asked me whether it would be possible to use her story as an example when talking to year 9 pupils, so he could explain that there are many different career options out there (and many different pathways), and that actually you don't have to follow the 'usual' A-level / university path in order to achieve your ambitions.

 

(Funnily enough, her head of year was a drama teacher)

[Legseleven]

Taxi4ballet, how lovely of her head of year! I'm so glad that there are teachers who see beyond the usual educational routes.

 

I'm sure it was because they taught drama...

[Peanut68]

I'm sure you are right! Likewise my cycling son is somewhat irritated by well meaning people asking him if he's "the next Bradley Wiggins", particularly as Sir Brad doesn't even feature on his list of heroes. But most of the population have probably never even heard of the people that he does aspire to emulate, in the same way as Darcey Bussell is the only dancer that most people can name I suppose. Basically, whatever the field, if you aren't part of the "tribe" you probably don't fully understand. Thank goodness for forums like this! I do wonder how people managed before the internet. I would have been totally clueless about any of my children's interests if it wasn't for websites and forums full of people who DO get it!

 

Uh oh.....looks like I may need to join forums for Rugby, Rock Drumming & Quantum Physics (yes, really....!!!) if I am to have a clue about my 10 year son's life!!

[balletbean]

I read this post when first published, then yesterday I attended a Mentor meeting at my DD academic school without my DD because as usual she was at the studio. 

 

First comment by her Mentor after the usual pleasant greetings and introductions.

 

"Ballet Grades are not going to get your DD into a Uni, she's going to have to cut down on her dancing lessons"  Grrrrrrr

 

She's in the top set for all subjects and working hard towards vocational auditions, currently in yr 10.  #noidea

[ParentTaxi]

Peanut, I would have to be on a similarly eclectic set of forums - Maths, Jazz, football...

 

IME, I have found that it is easier to find 'real life' tribes for 'collective enterprise / team' pursuits - those hanging around on the touchline, those sitting through yet another open-air jazz concert in the rain -  but it becomes harder for those where there is an element of competition between the individuals or where your child is an 'outlier', if that makes sense?

 

So I have no difficulty finding the football tribe, though perhaps harder to speak to them through the layers of coats and scarves and wellies - as it is a team sport, they are all 'in it together'. Similarly the Jazz tribe ... though interestingly not the classical music tribe ... are highly 'corporate' and keen to share everything that they know.

 

Classical music and ballet seem to have a greater focus on 'individual excellence', and their fair share of competitiveness between parents (and sometimes performers - one of the oddest conversations I have had as a mum was getting someone to take seriously the fact that my non dancing DS was being badly verbally bullied about, of all things, playing musical scales), which makes the 'shared enterprise' element less noticeable and the existence of on-line support more useful.

[ParentTaxi]

balletbean,

 

DD - Year 9 - dances 2-3 hours every night, but very few of her school teachers are aware of this unless I specifically tell them. She's all top sets, plays for school teams, gets her homework in on time, gets very high effort grades - she has just made the decision that it is easier not to tell them because as long as she can juggle both and succeed at both, it's much less hassle not to worry school about her dance commitments and vice versa.

 

She danced her own choreography at a school show last summer (co-opted by a member of staff who does know about her 'secret life') and at the parents' evening the following day, practically every teacher said 'I never knew she danced' (usually followed by a faintly awed 'and I never knew a 13 year old could dance LIKE THAT). I couldn't decide whether to laugh or rage.

[taxi4ballet]

I read this post when first published, then yesterday I attended a Mentor meeting at my DD academic school without my DD because as usual she was at the studio. 

 

First comment by her Mentor after the usual pleasant greetings and introductions.

 

"Ballet Grades are not going to get your DD into a Uni, she's going to have to cut down on her dancing lessons"  Grrrrrrr

 

She's in the top set for all subjects and working hard towards vocational auditions, currently in yr 10.  #noidea

Oh well, tell them that going to university isn't going to help her become a professional ballet dancer, and in order for her to increase her dance training, she's going to have to cut down on her academic work

 

Remind them that a school is supposed to support their pupils and encourage them in their ambitions, not put barriers in their way!

[ParentTaxi]

The thing is - and this is where i probably reveal myself as not quite a fully signed up member of the dance tribe - is that on occasion, as an academic teacher, one does want to make sure that a child maintains their academic studies up to a point even if this is as a 'back up plan'.

 

It is far more common than you might think (I'd put it as more than 1 in 10, for the age group  teach) for parents to say, for example 'He wants to be a footballer, so it really doesn't matter about his Maths', and it does take some time to sift 'those for whom this is, actually, a completely realistic ambition unless they are injured' from 'those for whom it is a pipe dream'.

 

For a child who has got as far as Y10 in the school, and who is auditioning for vocational schools, then I absolutely agree that the conversation with academic school should be all about balance and compromise and support for the 'primary' goal while ensuring that as far as possible other avenues are not closed, rather than assuming that academics take first place. However - being on both sides of this particular fence, and not being in any position to judge the 'actual likelihood of success' of the pupils I teach in their many and varied extracurricular pursuits - it can be difficult to get that exact balance and tone of conversation right for every child.

[annaliesey]

I read this post when first published, then yesterday I attended a Mentor meeting at my DD academic school without my DD because as usual she was at the studio.

 

First comment by her Mentor after the usual pleasant greetings and introductions.

 

"Ballet Grades are not going to get your DD into a Uni, she's going to have to cut down on her dancing lessons" Grrrrrrr

 

She's in the top set for all subjects and working hard towards vocational auditions, currently in yr 10. #noidea

What the actual?... Can't believe teacher crossed this line telling to cut down when she is doing so well

[ParentTaxi]

annaliesey, I absolutely agree that for a child doing well in top sets and delivering homework on time etc there seems absolutely no need to talk about cutting down.

 

My post was much more about the really difficult conversations that I have, more regularly than you might expect, with parents of children who are actively neglecting their academic work and performing very poorly because of an (often, unfortunately, wholly baseless) ambition / dream of a career in an extra-curricular area.

[drdance]

The thing is - and this is where i probably reveal myself as not quite a fully signed up member of the dance tribe - is that on occasion, as an academic teacher, one does want to make sure that a child maintains their academic studies up to a point even if this is as a 'back up plan'.

 

It is far more common than you might think (I'd put it as more than 1 in 10, for the age group  teach) for parents to say, for example 'He wants to be a footballer, so it really doesn't matter about his Maths', and it does take some time to sift 'those for whom this is, actually, a completely realistic ambition unless they are injured' from 'those for whom it is a pipe dream'.

 

For a child who has got as far as Y10 in the school, and who is auditioning for vocational schools, then I absolutely agree that the conversation with academic school should be all about balance and compromise and support for the 'primary' goal while ensuring that as far as possible other avenues are not closed, rather than assuming that academics take first place. However - being on both sides of this particular fence, and not being in any position to judge the 'actual likelihood of success' of the pupils I teach in their many and varied extracurricular pursuits - it can be difficult to get that exact balance and tone of conversation right for every child.

 

ParentTaxi I completely agree with you. The amount of lads I see in school who don't bother working because they're going to be a footballer astounds me. My previous head of department used to then tell these lads "in my 25 years of teaching do you know how many of my pupils have gone on to play professionally and earned a living from it?..... 0!"

 

Dancing I think by secondary age is something slightly different, and by year 10/11 you usually have a good idea of who is going to be dancing seriously and who isn't. Having said that there is a poor girl at my school who is now in year 11, and was convinced that she wanted to go to ballet school even last year I think. Having seen her dance I am pretty confident that this won't happen, sadly. I don't know if she still wants to pursue it but I know she wasn't getting the quality of training needed.

[drdance]

Oh well, tell them that going to university isn't going to help her become a professional ballet dancer, and in order for her to increase her dance training, she's going to have to cut down on her academic work

 

Remind them that a school is supposed to support their pupils and encourage them in their ambitions, not put barriers in their way!

 

Hahahahaha noooooooo taxi4ballet that's only in an ideal world! - These days schools are supposed to get every student to pass every GCSE at the highest grade possible, (otherwise their teachers won't pass their performance management review, or an Ofsted inspection might be triggered) therefore anything that interferes with that is a problem!

[ParentTaxi]

Dancing I think by secondary age is something slightly different, and by year 10/11 you usually have a good idea of who is going to be dancing seriously and who isn't. Having said that there is a poor girl at my school who is now in year 11, and was convinced that she wanted to go to ballet school even last year I think. Having seen her dance I am pretty confident that this won't happen, sadly. I don't know if she still wants to pursue it but I know she wasn't getting the quality of training needed.

 

DrDance, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean. In football, dance and music, simply due to my expertise 'as a mum', I can perhaps make some slightly more informed judgements about the likelihood or not of certain career dreams for certain children - but for every pupil who has an ambition related to one of those three, there will be several who have dreams of succeeding in areas where I have no ability to judge the reality or otherwise of their dreams. As a result, my first 'routine' response to a parent who makes that type of comment will be along the lines of needing to maintain academic work as much as possible as a 'back up', though once i know more about the level of their commitment and expertise that message will become more nuanced, if that makes sense?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I totally agree although I don't think it should have any bearing whether a child is top set or bottom set as long as they are achieving to their ability.

 

And following a bit of a meltdown yesterdsy with ds's physics homework where he informed me that why did he need to know this stuff (charges/electricity/magnetism) because he was going to be a singer guess who has just texted him a link to a page on how electric guitars use electromagnetism.

 

I do think the volume of homework some schools expect is totally ridiculous though.

[ParentTaxi]

I totally agree although I don't think it should have any bearing whether a child is top set or bottom set as long as they are achieving to their ability.

 

 

 

Agreed that it is absolutely about work ethic and 'achieving to their individual ability' (or even, in some cases, 'to the best of their ability given the constraints placed on them by working towards their 'primary' goal' - those Olympic athletes who were fitting GCSEs or A levels in around training, for example) rather than being about the absolute level of that ability.

[taxi4ballet]

I totally agree although I don't think it should have any bearing whether a child is top set or bottom set as long as they are achieving to their ability.

 

And following a bit of a meltdown yesterdsy with ds's physics homework where he informed me that why did he need to know this stuff (charges/electricity/magnetism) because he was going to be a singer guess who has just texted him a link to a page on how electric guitars use electromagnetism.

 

I do think the volume of homework some schools expect is totally ridiculous though.

Tell him about Professor Brian Cox, who used to be a singer, and is now a physicist

[ParentTaxi]

The 'more nuanced' conversations that I have as i get to know pupils better wlll often be around balancing 'marginal benefit' (marginal benefit of 1 more hour of extra curricular activity vs 1 more hour available for academic work or sleep..) and stripping away any time consuming but ultimately non-valuable activities.

 

Tbh, much school homework, In my experience, is of the time consuming but ultimately non-valuable camp. i have been lucky both where i teach and where my children attend school that homework is pretty much stripped down to the necessary.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

It's overnight homework that I object to.

 

Dd(at Voc school) has virtually no overnight homework) so is able to blitz it at the weekend combined with a bit if study during the long car journey home.

 

Last night DS had 3 pieces of overnight homework. Mostly finishing sonething started in class & writing up an e irritant but all to be handed in today. He was stressed because he couldn't go out as he had singing class last night too.

[ParentTaxi]

At the DC's school, after a period at the beginning of y7 when all homework was short but had to be in the next day (supposedly to 'get them into good habits', but a real issue for DD at the time), we never get overnight homework. There is a very strictly-kept homework timetable, so it is also never unexpected. I know we're really lucky.

[Huddsballetmum]

I read this post when first published, then yesterday I attended a Mentor meeting at my DD academic school without my DD because as usual she was at the studio. 

 

First comment by her Mentor after the usual pleasant greetings and introductions.

 

"Ballet Grades are not going to get your DD into a Uni, she's going to have to cut down on her dancing lessons"  Grrrrrrr

 

She's in the top set for all subjects and working hard towards vocational auditions, currently in yr 10.  #noidea

My dd has just started studying her A levels, and was asked if she would reduce her hours of dancing to manage her A level workload.  Her answer made me smile.  She told them "I have managed to dance 20 hours a week and study for 11 GCSE's, I'm sure I can manage 3 A levels".  I was so proud of her for not backing down.

[balletbean]

Thanks everyone. I didn't actually let her Mentor know that my DD spends 13 hours a week in the studio AND volunteers for 2 hours early on a Sat morning to help the 'baby' modern/tap class. Giving something back, whilst maintaining her studies. And not lying in bed like so many other teenagers. 

 

A visit to her school a few years back by the Community Bobby actually endorsed sports/dance or other activity as they so "very rarely came into contact with these teenagers for getting into trouble for 'hanging out'. They use their precious spare time wisely" Supported by another teacher who stated that they very rarely had to chase homework from dancers, very organised and focused. 

 

Obvious the Mentor yesterday hadn't got that memo!!  

[drdance]

I do think that those students who have many extracurricular activities and who pursue them to a high level tend to be better organised because they HAVE to be. There does come a time when you have to be concerned about burnout though - I encountered several situations during my teenage years when I was totally, 100% burnt out and had complete meltdowns.