Education and Careers after dance

[glowlight]

I'm starting a new thread for discussion of Education and Careers after dance, as the original thread about the BBC documentary has been sidetracked by this discussion.

 

I would love if some of us 'out the other side' parents and dancers could share experiences here.

 

I'll start with.. after graduating from Northern Ballet School my DD worked for 5 years on cruise ships. She then decided she wanted to return to the UK and have a more 'stable' life. There were a few hairy months when she was working out what she wanted to do, then she got a trainee job in a small web design agency (she had never done any IT before and had no qualifications in this area, just an interest and one heck of a work ethic!) 5 years later she now runs a team of web developers.

 

None of us would have envisaged that this was where she would end up, but her dance training and dance career have given her organisational and team work skills which have been invaluable in her new career.

 

 

[Beezie]

Second careers I have heard of after ballet, from the people who have lived them:

Doctor

Engineer

Stock Broker

Creater of a Dance Festival

Dance teacher (of course)

Studio owner (of course)

Corporate Executive 

Psychology degree-Don’t know the employment, as still in school.

 

I really think anything is possible.  I think it is most important that children plan for two careers.  The first can be dance, but the second needs to be ‘what comes after dance.’  Keep up the education and recognize that a delayed entry into University won’t even be noticed in the grand scheme of things.  The young adult is probably more self conscious about a late start in University than their peers.  I bet their peers either don’t notice or think a professional dance experience (or attempted experience) is pretty cool.

 

Great topic, by the way!

Edited September 29, 2023 by Beezie

[Fiz]

Miko Fogarty is studying pre med in America and Beatrix Stix Brunell is studying science based courses at Stanford. Claudia Dean is teaching and designing. 

[Peanut68]

11 hours ago, Beezie said:

recognize that a delayed entry into University won’t even be noticed in the grand scheme of things.  

The issue here of course could be finances…. Not just whether or not they can qualify for a student loan… most students still require sone parental assistance (eg. Live back with family during uni breaks - often rent free with food & laundry all thrown in - ha ha! This enables them to perhaps work to earn money to help top up to be self supporting in ‘term/semester’ time. Many mature students - even aged just say 18-20 may not have the luxury of this or parents may be unable/unwilling to provide this or other help (particularly if huge sums have erstwhile been pumped into funding vocational training for the dance career) Likewise a mature student post dance training or even dance career may be in a partnership (even be a parent) so remember household income (so partner earnings) could also present financial limitations on student loan options & also on opportunities. No one I imagine sees gaining further education as easy as simply deciding to go back to it but it can be an impossible dream out of reach to many, thus maybe limiting their future career opportunities/earnings etc.

Time again? Well, I’d have not gone to ‘ballet’ school (I use inverted commas as in the 1980’s I got just 3 ballet lessons a week at so called ‘ballet school’ - yes one of those in the panorama programme! What a rip off & waste of time & lost regular academic education time….sigh) And would I have sent my young person fully aware & thinking through all the gorier connotations??? Well, yes, quite likely but maybe not until post 16 or even 18 as there are ever increasing opportunities to commence training post 18 & post A level or similar studies & at that age specialisation & dance genre suitability & personal ambition & work diligence or not is all pretty firmed up & so at a time of life to fully make the very best use of this (& possibly gain a degree in dance too). And if not all that money spent in early years training there’s more family ability & happiness to assist financially!

Lots to think on..

Why the pressure to train so intensively so young? There’s no Olympics in ballet (YAGP etc not withstanding!!! Yes - that’s where IMHO stupid getting ever better ever younger pressures & expectations get continually promoted.) Most countries like UK now expect young people to continue in main stream education until at least 18 & few commence any specific career related training until after that (ok - I appreciate many undertake apprenticeships…. Time again I reckon plumbing trumps ballet for an early career progression & hood long term earning prospects!)

The era of the baby ballerina is surely outdated, outmoded & really not necessary is it? 
I’d get no extra thrill seeing a great Aurora & thinking  ‘wow, and at only 15/16/17/18 too!’ I’m more than happy to wait to see a well trained & happy living dancer aged 20 & then any age upwards dancing in Corps or solo roles! 
Just my thoughts….

 

[Beezie]

@Peanut68 Good cautionary note.  I continue to think there is a world where a child can stay semi-professional in training, while living at home and prioritizing school.  Yep, their chances at a professional career are decreased.  Their ‘delta’ in training and effort would need to ramp up considerably around 14-16 (post puberty) if they really want to give it a go.  …but until then, maybe less money spent (or saved to help later) and continued establishment of non-dance identity and education.

 

Can the child and parent say they gave it ‘every effort possible’ with this approach?  Probably not.  But is that a huge regret if they gave it a ‘reasonable’ effort and it didn’t quite work out?  It might be the more pragmatic approach.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Beezie

[taxi4ballet]

One plus point that all former vocational dancers seem to have is determination and a strong work ethic. 

[Tango Dancer]

18 hours ago, glowlight said:

I'm starting a new thread for discussion of Education and Careers after dance, as the original thread about the BBC documentary has been sidetracked by this discussion.

 

I would love if some of us 'out the other side' parents and dancers could share experiences here.

 

I'll start with.. after graduating from Northern Ballet School my DD worked for 5 years on cruise ships. She then decided she wanted to return to the UK and have a more 'stable' life. There were a few hairy months when she was working out what she wanted to do, then she got a trainee job in a small web design agency (she had never done any IT before and had no qualifications in this area, just an interest and one heck of a work ethic!) 5 years later she now runs a team of web developers.

 

None of us would have envisaged that this was where she would end up, but her dance training and dance career have given her organisational and team work skills which have been invaluable in her new career.

 

 

 

That's a wonderful story.  I'm so glad your daughter had an interesting dance career on cruise ships (which I always think must be fascinating) and then found something that suits her for her second career.    

[Kerfuffle]

1 hour ago, Beezie said:

@Peanut68 Good cautionary note.  I continue to think there is a world where a child can stay semi-professional in training, while living at home and prioritizing school.  Yep, their chances at a professional career are decreased.  Their ‘delta’ in training and effort would need to ramp up considerably around 14-16 (post puberty) if they really want to give it a go.  …but until then, maybe less money spent (or saved to help later) and continued establishment of non-dance identity and education.

 

Can the child and parent say they gave it ‘every effort possible’ with this approach?  Probably not.  But is that a huge regret if they gave it a ‘reasonable’ effort and it didn’t quite work out?  It might be the more pragmatic approach.

I think staying at home until 16 in the U.K. and then training professionally is entirely feasible as long as the dancer is trained at a high enough standard to get into a good school. No need for “if onlys” 

[Allwrong]

My ´if onlys’ : if only semi-professional training from home till 18 were the widespread norm, before full/time vocational; if only semi-professional were max 3x a week with additional practice (body conditioning, barre) at home, rather as aspiring musicians do. This would be a longer process, but could create beautiful, strong dancers whose bodies and minds could develop appropriately. Plan B could also be catered for with A Levels etc in place.

 

The obstacle to this does not seem to be what is the best training in the long run, but rather the intense competition to get there early, fostered by the perceived necessity to get into the most famous schools. International competition has turned this into something of an arms race.

 

Separate thought: no need, surely, for dancers to get squeezed through a subsequent academic degree unless they want one. Not knocking university degrees: mine was sheer delight and a foundational mind-opening experience. But, with the notable exception of some courses (eg medical) university is not automatically the place to gain professional training, which might be better (and much more cheaply) gained on the ground.  When  your dancer has the thirst for things academic, that is of course important and logistically more complicated (funding).

 

 

[glowlight]

13 hours ago, Allwrong said:

Separate thought: no need, surely, for dancers to get squeezed through a subsequent academic degree unless they want one. Not knocking university degrees: mine was sheer delight and a foundational mind-opening experience. But, with the notable exception of some courses (eg medical) university is not automatically the place to gain professional training, which might be better (and much more cheaply) gained on the ground.  When  your dancer has the thirst for things academic, that is of course important and logistically more complicated (funding).

 

Brilliantly put @Allwrong

[Kat09]

My Ex DD left vocational school a term before graduation - left with nothing - a devastating time but let’s FF 5 years.

After some hospitality and a ski season in the alps, a second ski season and subsequent Covid took her to enrol on line for some digital marketing courses/diplomas - not university and not OTT expensive. From these she was offered a digital marketing apprenticeship- not completed as tbh she recognised it was not helpful.

On walking away, she was offered a marketing entry level position with a local company , 1 year later she made the move back to London to a well known estate agency chain - digital marketing executive. 18 months on and she’s just landed an amazing marketing management position at Sothebys Residential - I’m so so proud of her - she was broken by the ballet system and has put herself back together, she can recognise the transferable skill that her ballet training gave her and has utilised those to great affect. She harbours no bitterness or regret for her time at BS (me , that’s another matter!)

The drive that took her to ballet school has returned - there is definitely life after the ballet - just go and grab it - your training and experiences are greatly valued by future employers. 😊

[Anon2]

That’s wonderful news @Kat09 My daughter remembers yours as their paths often crossed. She will be pleased to hear she is now thriving. 

[Kat09]

Just now, Anon2 said:

That’s wonderful news @Kat09 My daughter remembers yours as their paths often crossed. She will be pleased to hear she is now thriving. 

Thank you so much 😊 

[Lifeafterballet]

1 hour ago, Kat09 said:

My Ex DD left vocational school a term before graduation - left with nothing - a devastating time but let’s FF 5 years.

After some hospitality and a ski season in the alps, a second ski season and subsequent Covid took her to enrol on line for some digital marketing courses/diplomas - not university and not OTT expensive. From these she was offered a digital marketing apprenticeship- not completed as tbh she recognised it was not helpful.

On walking away, she was offered a marketing entry level position with a local company , 1 year later she made the move back to London to a well known estate agency chain - digital marketing executive. 18 months on and she’s just landed an amazing marketing management position at Sothebys Residential - I’m so so proud of her - she was broken by the ballet system and has put herself back together, she can recognise the transferable skill that her ballet training gave her and has utilised those to great affect. She harbours no bitterness or regret for her time at BS (me , that’s another matter!)

The drive that took her to ballet school has returned - there is definitely life after the ballet - just go and grab it - your training and experiences are greatly valued by future employers. 😊

So so pleased that your daughter is loving life after ballet. 
I totally get the part that she harbours no bitterness or regret for her time at BS. My daughter was also physically and mentally damaged by ballet and it has taken time for her to reflect and heal but she too holds no bitterness.

It’s a wonderful quality to just let it go.
But as you say it’s more difficult for us parents. I’m not bitter, I just wish I had done some things differently. 

 

[Kat09]

11 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

So so pleased that your daughter is loving life after ballet. 
I totally get the part that she harbours no bitterness or regret for her time at BS. My daughter was also physically and mentally damaged by ballet and it has taken time for her to reflect and heal but she too holds no bitterness.

It’s a wonderful quality to just let it go.
But as you say it’s more difficult for us parents. I’m not bitter, I just wish I had done some things differently. 

 

A crystal ball would have been useful

[taxi4ballet]

2 hours ago, Kat09 said:

A crystal ball would have been useful

So true!

[FlexyNexy]

Hello from the other side.

I am a mother of prestigious ballet school graduate, who danced professionally for 1 year before we decided to burn ballet shoes in a big campfire. And what a relief and blessing!

Getting offers from ballet companies in USA in the middle of Covid was like dangling carrot in front of a rabbit. Embassies closed and not processing work visas meant that all the offers expired.

Borders re-opened and she danced in a European company for a year only to find other seasonal offers she received were unpaid for exchange of exposure or salary of EUR 800 per month where simply not acceptable and unaffordable for us.

With heavy heart my DC hanged the pointe shoes for good. Having degree in her hand allowing her to teach, she never wanted that. She said she would only teach if she had a solid career behind her. Cruise work was never her choice.

We went through a devastating time where she had to repair her mental health damaged by ballet and she has found escape in her second love and that was the sea or ocean. She always had love for the water, she was natural surfer (the balance helped) so she retrained and got into yachting. She qualified as an offshore licenced captain and is working on a superyacht in the Caribbean. Don’t get me wrong, she works hard, long hours but she travels and no expenses on her side. She lives onboard of a luxurious superyacht, all meals cooked by chef and her salary and tips is clean money for her saving (perhaps deposit for new house). She earns double my city job salary! 3 months in Caribbean, one month at home in UK as holiday.

Once she is ready to come back to the dry land, she would perhaps have a strong CV and experience to go into yacht broking or insurance….only the future tells. One thing she knows for sure. If one day she has her own daughter, she makes sure she will not do ballet, even for a fun. Only if I knew! 

[Crystaltips]

My dd walked away from Ballet during the Covid pandemic after 16 years of it being the centre of her life. She should have been auditioning for companies but saw absolutely no hope. Having left education at 16 she had a very long road back. But the grit and determination that got her into vocational training saw her through this too. It was difficult to find a college that would accept her onto A level courses ( too old at 19) but she persevered and eventually found one. Always regarded as a bit of an airhead at school when she cared for nothing but ballet, this time she threw herself into her studies. To everyone’s surprise she got great results and 5 university offers. She is now in the second year of a science degree. She always swore she would never dance again and was consumed with hatred with the whole ballet world. I honestly thought that was it. Then last weekend she came home and asked where her pointe shoes were. To our astonishment it was because she has an audition. Ok she will never be a professional dancer but so proud that her love of dance ultimately triumphed over her terrible experiences in vocational training 

[HopelessMummy]

There are a lot of lawyers who used to dance. You can always tell who they are because they manage to swan around and move like gazelles

[TiredOfThis]

I’m so glad to read this thread and hear the successes after ballet. 

If I’m honest, I hugely regret saying yes to ballet school.
We thought that, with the very small class sizes, at least there’ll be a good, solid academic education if the ballet side doesn’t go so well. That was our (very naive) back up plan for DC. 
 

For those whose DCs did opt for a different route after committing to ballet so heavily, can I ask if there was a lot of catching up to do (academically) to get into A Level or University courses? Did it require private tutoring etc? Or was it a fairly straightforward transition? 

[Ruby Foo]

My dd stopped dancing earlier this year due to injury. She left ( RBS) with 1 A level age 18.  She managed to find a college in London to take her ( free) to do 2 more A levels in 1 year. It wasn’t easy to get in ( 2 A levels in a year is a lot of work) and she needed to sit an entrance exam and an interview for both subjects.

As one of the A levels is a science, she has set up a tutor session online once a week or as needed. The tutor session is about 1/3 of the cost of a ballet private lesson in London! The college move at pace and there are high expectations of the students.

Seems to be working well so far. She’s already sat one ‘mock’ exam and passed with flying colours but she’s extremely motivated to do everything needed to make this a success. The last year has been a huge trauma so it’s great relief she researched and set this whole thing up herself.

[TiredOfThis]

Thank you. That is helpful. 
 

Clearly a very hardworking young lady you have there.  
 

And cost-wise, yes that is a helpful reminder as I’ve been fretting that we are throwing money away currently and won’t be able to afford tutoring in the long term. Ballet is extortionately expensive in comparison to academic tutoring. 
 

Edited October 19, 2023 by TiredOfThis

[Swanwings]

I have a very good friend, who trained at 2 prestigious upper schools, the 2nd was because she diverted to contemporary. After performing in companies and Westend, where work was sporadic but generally regular with a lot of teaching thrown in to keep things going, , she decided to hang up her shoes at around 34 yrs to persue a career in medicine. She had to complete all 3 science A'levels as she had none, but is now a junior doctor in a hospital with 2 small children. I am immensely proud of my friend for her determination and hard work. When I stopped dancing I had no interest in studying outside the danceworld (I had a degree already) and went into teaching. I often use her as an example of how second careers are entirely possible whether they are early or late.  

[Crystaltips]

11 hours ago, TiredOfThis said:

I’m so glad to read this thread and hear the successes after ballet. 

If I’m honest, I hugely regret saying yes to ballet school.
We thought that, with the very small class sizes, at least there’ll be a good, solid academic education if the ballet side doesn’t go so well. That was our (very naive) back up plan for DC. 
 

For those whose DCs did opt for a different route after committing to ballet so heavily, can I ask if there was a lot of catching up to do (academically) to get into A Level or University courses? Did it require private tutoring etc? Or was it a fairly straightforward transition? 

I can only speak for our situation but no my dd just rocked up on her first day of college. She was more worried about being ‘old’ than anything else. She need not have worried since she wasn’t the only one to arrive by a circuitous route. She got on particularly well with an ex army trainee they had a lot of shared experiences lol. I would say that the extra years of maturity and the discipline acquired through dance counted for far more than being out of education for a few years. She simply worked hard always handed her work in on time and that was it.