Good feet

[SplitSoul]

My DD 8 wants to audition for JAs. 

 

I have read they look at "body shape", which apparently means:

 

Long legs

Short torso

Long neck

Good feet & ankles

 

I get the first three. What makes feet and ankles "good"?

 

Also, she hasn't got her exams due to covid, but is going to both a gr1 and a gr 2 class. Is that the right ball park?

[Ruby Foo]

Good feet would generally mean feet that are flexible and strong so they will give a nice atheistic look to the lines and will also be suitable for pointe work. 
In general terms, feet that have a nice arch and instep and are reasonably flexible.
People often refer to ' banana feet ' in ballet. Certainly lots of ballet dancers do have very flexible and bendy feet but it's not as straightforward as it sounds because truly beautiful, bendy feet are very, very difficult to work with and need lots of work to strengthen. As do the legs and pelvis in order that everything is supporting.

Lots of dancers don't have those very bendy feet, but have reasonable arches and insteps and then work on strength and flexibility. 
What is more tricky is very flat feet with little arch or instep and little flexiblity. This is because it will very tricky in the future to get right over the block en pointe.

All types of feet can be worked on with specific exercises given by a qualified teacher or dance physio.

I have experience of Junior Associates taking all 3 types of feet but for fully vocational, reasonably good feet would be required.

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

With regards to the level of training, gr1 and 2 sound perfect!

[Balletbuds80]

My daughter is a JA and doesn't have long legs and short torso. In fact we keep getting told she has a long back. I am hoping it is just the way she has grown and her legs will catch up but she is very flexible has good feet and good turn out. We dont know how each child will grow/develop.
They look for potential but i also believe they look for musicality and a love for classical ballet. It will be a great experience whatever the outcome. Good luck

[Pointeshoesarethedream]

My DD is quite the opposite. Long legs, short torsos, long neck and small head. She’s not naturally flexible and has to work very hard on both this and her feet. Her turnout is ok. 
 

She is in her 3rd year as a JA.
 

I agree musicality and showing a love of ballet is also good. 

 

I’d say if she’s keen. Give it a go, the auditions themselves are lovely experiences and you won’t know unless you try. 
 

Good luck. 

[Raquelle]

6 minutes ago, SJBallet said:

My DD is quite the opposite. Long legs, short torsos, long neck and small head. She’s not naturally flexible and has to work very hard on both this and her feet. Her turnout is ok. 
 

She is in her 3rd year as a JA.
 

I agree musicality and showing a love of ballet is also good. 

 

I’d say if she’s keen. Give it a go, the auditions themselves are lovely experiences and you won’t know unless you try. 
 

Good luck. 

Very few have every single attribute they're looking for.....My dd who was a JA was told she had a great facility for ballet (whatever that means) but she had to work on her flexibility and turnout. As SJ says the auditions are lovely whether you get a yes or a no or a waiting list. Good luck x 

[BallerinaMum13]

My DD (also 😎 will also try out for JA's and luckily I have a friend who was a ballerina who was able to 'translate' all of these requirements for me. In their totality people seem to refer to them as 'facility' for ballet. Nobody ticks all the boxes apparently. The one that gets me is 'turn out.' Anatomically I understand what this means. However, unlike a high instep or long legs, I am obviously not able (visually), nor qualified, at all to appraise my DD's turn out. And if I understand correctly that is the real dead end. On the 'nice to have' list, I also heard that hyper extended knees are desirable. 

PS: no idea how that emoji got in there, it was meant to say 8 yrs old.

Edited February 17, 2022 by BallerinaMum13
Typo

[glowlight]

It's best not to try to second guess whether your child will be chosen for JAs.  I would say if she wants to try, and you can afford it, give it a go.  But try to encourage her to approach it as a fun day out, just doing it for the experience.  Try not to get hopes up too high.  

 

There are lots of other good associate schemes to look at as well, and if JA's isn't right for your DD, something else might be.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

If she wants to audition, do let her have a go because it will also let her experience what a typical class might be and whether she would enjoy it. At that age they can still change so much. Out of your list of attributes my DD only has the long neck and was never a JA but when she tried to audition for full time to a few schools for year 7 she got finals to a couple of schools in the UK, and also in Europe and the USA (where she got an offer for a full time place based on a summer intensive audition). For someone who only dances for fun, never really wanted to go full time and only blessed with a long neck, it just goes to show that you won’t know if you don’t try.

[SplitSoul]

Thank you everyone!

 

I can't assess most of these on my DD, she just looks like my DD...

 

I have been told she has "sling back legs",  but not sure if that's good or bad. She doesn't like them and wants straight legs.

 

I used to have bendy legs like this.... (oh, happy days)

 

 

 

[SplitSoul]

1 hour ago, BallerinaMum13 said:

My DD (also 😎 will also try out for JA's and luckily I have a friend who was a ballerina who was able to 'translate' all of these requirements for me. In their totality people seem to refer to them as 'facility' for ballet. Nobody ticks all the boxes apparently. The one that gets me is 'turn out.' Anatomically I understand what this means. However, unlike a high instep or long legs, I am obviously not able (visually), nor qualified, at all to appraise my DD's turn out. And if I understand correctly that is the real dead end. On the 'nice to have' list, I also heard that hyper extended knees are desirable. 

PS: no idea how that emoji got in there, it was meant to say 8 yrs old.

Thank you. The turn out thing baffles me, specially when we see professional dancers. It looks so unnatural!!!

 

Which centre are you going for? We are Brum.

[BallerinaMum13]

We're in London. I noticed that they have 4 audition dates for London, presumably to deal with the higher demand / number of applications. Auditions are not until June so still a long way to go. 

[Anna C]

Yes, she has swayback knees, @Elz - these look nice (they’re particularly desirable in Russia) but as your dd progresses in ballet, it would be helpful if she can learn not to “sit back” into her knees.  This is going to feel odd to her because for her, straight knees will feel as if they’re really bent, but it will benefit her knees in the long run.  

 

If her other joints are like this then she will undoubtedly have the turnout and flexibility for ballet, but what she might need to work hard on is the muscle strength to support the flexible joints and hold her turnout/pointed feet when actually dancing.

 

I agree that it’s definitely worth her trying; the earlier children get used to the idea of auditions as a fun day out and a lovely ballet class, the better.  If the Royal Ballet School are still doing “JA for a day” or similar experiences, that might be well worth looking at.  And as people have said, if she isn’t successful as a JA first time round, there are other great Associate schemes - and it’s always worth trying a year later too.

 

 

[MissEmily]

Also, don’t give up if it’s a no first time around. My pupil got two straight nos for Year 4 and Year 5, before getting a yes for Year 6. I actually think having only one year of JAs, having had to fight for it, has made it all the more special for her and she has been super engaged right when it’s really mattered for auditions as a result. All things happen for a reason!

[SplitSoul]

Ah, sway back, not sling back! I must have shoes on my mind....

[Pups_mum]

I'd second the advice up thread about not over analysing things. There's no doubt that at this stage the various associate programmes are looking for potential,and physique is a very important part of that. But none of us knows exactly what panels are looking for, and even if we did, it is likely to be things that we can't change anyway. The best thing is to go along, view it as a nice day out and try to enjoy the audition as an experience in it's own right and not worry too much about the result.

I'm not sure of the most recent figures, but traditionally there's something in the region of 10 applicants for each JA place, so the vast majority of applicants will be unsuccessful. Not that I'm saying don't apply, but it's worth doing some expectation management. The majority of applicants will be the most promising dancers in their local schools and this is often the first time they will have encountered this kind of situation, so if they're not chosen the disappointment can be hard to manage. I think it's worth understanding the odds yourself, and trying to get that over to your child beforehand. Especially if they know others who are or have been JAs its easy to think that they are the one who didn't get in if that happend, whereas of course they're actually in the large majority. RBS are looking for the children they think will best fit with their system. Not being chosen doesn't mean that you're not a good dancer or that other routes aren't available. Nothing is set in stone at this age.

Of course someone has to be successful, and it could well be your DD - it's definitely worth a try if it's something you feel she would enjoy. Just don't stress about it. It's easy to get sucked into trying to second guess everything in the ballet world, but over thinking things rarely helps and can stop you doing what matters most of all - enjoying it!

[Kate_N]

13 hours ago, valentina said:

People often refer to ' banana feet ' in ballet. Certainly lots of ballet dancers do have very flexible and bendy feet but it's not as straightforward as it sounds because truly beautiful, bendy feet are very, very difficult to work with and need lots of work to strengthen

And also, we forget that “banana feet” don’t just happen. They are usually the result of a lot of slow, steady, consistent barre and centre work. Especially tendus. There is natural potential but that potential is only realised through several years of consistent work. At 8, it’s still about potentia l- but it’s also about “teachability” and the desire to do the work.

[Kerfuffle]

I’m a bit puzzled about how banana feet are nearly always described as being weak - my DD’s feet have very high arches and insteps and are extremely strong - they  look exactly like banana but when pointed are rigid. 
Don’t get put off if your DD isn’t successful the first time auditioning for RBS - it is purely on what they see as potential which either gets fulfilled or doesn’t later on. My DD was unsuccessful in a JA audition and then made it into SA, probably because those feet were spotted! (She also has sway back knees  but seems to be in the minority in her class for this). 

[Jan McNulty]

Hello Kerfuffle and welcome to the Forum!

[BallerinaMum13]

I was wondering if some of the more experienced parents have a point of view on ballet physio classes for the 8 - 10 year old range (the JA range). I see on Instagram that these are very popular even with younger students. Would this really give a young, classical dancer an edge? Is it just clever marketing? Is it too much too soon? 

[Mumof1]

26 minutes ago, BallerinaMum13 said:

I was wondering if some of the more experienced parents have a point of view on ballet physio classes for the 8 - 10 year old range (the JA range). I see on Instagram that these are very popular even with younger students. Would this really give a young, classical dancer an edge? Is it just clever marketing? Is it too much too soon? 

Hi, 

im not a dancer and only have experience with my year 5 JA daughter but she’s had body conditioning classes with her ballet school from the age of 6 which are relatively similar to some of the work she did with a ballet physio over zoom this half term (although the physio was incredibly knowledgable and explained why they do everything) 

I don’t think it’s necessarily about giving a child “the edge” but to dance I  know kids need to be strong enough to control their muscles and have flexibility in the right places. Also it can help with muscle memory and Almost preparing their bodies so when they do the harder ballet moves they’re able to execute them well and have less chance of getting injured. 
 

Anyone please correct me if I’m wrong but I know my daughter needs the conditioning as she’s not naturally strong but pretty flexible. we will definitely add in some ballet physio on school holidays If we can, it was really worth it . Sorry for rabbiting on. 
 

I also heard PBT was amazing 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Lily Craggs
To add in about PBT

[Neverdancedjustamum]

51 minutes ago, BallerinaMum13 said:

I was wondering if some of the more experienced parents have a point of view on ballet physio classes for the 8 - 10 year old range (the JA range). I see on Instagram that these are very popular even with younger students. Would this really give a young, classical dancer an edge? Is it just clever marketing? Is it too much too soon? 

I don’t have a dance background whatsoever but because my DD loves ballet, and has done so for the last 7 or so years, I have witnessed a slight change over the last 3-4 years. When my DD first started dancing, I knew a good number of DCs who got into associates and full time schools on one associates per week and maybe a couple of ballet classes within the week.  Most obviously had natural facility and physique. In the last few years, I have seen the rise of especially and specifically preparing DCs for full time auditions or even associate auditions! Just look at the number of schools these days that offer “pre-vocational” training or market themselves as specialising in getting kids into full time vocational schools. The number of posts on social media on “vocational successes” have steadily gone up and are being used as a gauge of how good a school is. Kids as young as 8/9 are doing lots of classes with diff teachers and schools, doing PBT, physio, gyro, conditioning, stretch - mostly separate from their usual classes and privates so are separate expenses in themselves. I have even seen audition psychology experts who market themselves as specifically preparing kids to mentally prepare themselves for auditions (I did Psychology in uni myself and it never even occurred to me that my DD might “need” this on top of family support and encouragement) . So yes, it may be that physio etc classes will give these young kids an edge but sadly I do think that more than that these days, they would need it to keep up (it’s not so much to give them an edge anymore but it’s more to be at par with others if they want to be competitive).  I don’t mean to generalise but sadly this is what I have witnessed myself in the last few years. 

[Kerfuffle]

I agree that it seems like some kind of arms race these days, especially if you look at social media. However, I also think that until your child has come out the other side of puberty it’s hard to know if they will have the right body to be a professional ballerina, so much changes! I think that it’s probably better not to get fixated on just one form of dance before your DD has gone through this important stage. Also as children start secondary school there is definite drop out rate in ballet in particular from what I’ve observed - the ballet classes become noticeably smaller in comparison to modern/jazz/contemporary. Perhaps part of it is how well they adapt to pointe work, which is crucial to ballet. Your DD will probably benefit from some conditioning but I think having a good basic technique is the best start. Try not to worry and enjoy the journey! 

[glowlight]

11 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

 

I'm not sure of the most recent figures, but traditionally there's something in the region of 10 applicants for each JA place, so the vast majority of applicants will be unsuccessful. Not that I'm saying don't apply, but it's worth doing some expectation management. 

This is a really important point.  It is easy to think when reading this forum that almost everyone who applies gets an associate place.  That really isn't the case.  Remember people shout about their successes, but fewer post when they don't have good news to share.  

[Kate_N]

6 hours ago, BallerinaMum13 said:

Would this really give a young, classical dancer an edge? Is it just clever marketing? Is it too much too soon? 

 

It seems to me that if parents are looking for ways of giving their children "the edge" then the demand is coming from those parents, rather than "clever marketing." Practitioners are responding to demand from those parents prepared to pay to give their children what they perceive to be a competitive advantage. 

[Mumof1]

I was only personally saying I thought that conditioning type classes really benefited my daughter but not from the angle of giving her an advantage over others. 
She has no intention of wanting to go to a vocational school at the moment but does want to be good for herself rather than a career. 
she has had 2 minor strained groins and used to have a bit of a sway back but the conditioning classes have really helped her. 
 

but in the reply to the original post , def treat this as a fun thing to try for abs maybe try for another associate programme as well . 
my daughter didn’t get in the first year and I feel like it really spurred her on to try harder the next. 

 

[Robinredbreast]

For JA’s and arguably WL I don’t think there is much extra classes can do. RBS is all about the physique and there’s little you can do to change what you’re born with. That’s why I get cross with some teachers attributing a child’s success in these schemes to their training: in my view a child with non-RBS physique (which is in no way the same as non-ballet physique….) cannot be coached to be offered a place, no matter how good the training. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Robinredbreast

[Kerfuffle]

Also remember that your child’s physique will change as she grows so don’t be put off by a no. In the meantime make sure the local training is as good as it can be as this will proportionately be the majority of the input to her dancing skills. 

[Medora]

To the poster who was asking how to assess turnout: from a lay perspective if your child is comfortable in a frog stretch and if their knees lay flat on the floor (without pushing the knees down, just with the help of gravity) in a butterfly stretch then I’d say they have decent turnout. Whether it’s perfectly even is not crucial until they are older and audition for vocational school.

 

Does this make sense? Everyone else, would you agree?

[SplitSoul]

So many helpful replies, thank you.

 

I am not really hung up on whether she gets in or not. If she does, it will be wonderful experience. If not, as many have said, there are lots of other great schemes going on. 

 

She is 8 and totally transfixed by "real" ballerinas. She is very focused and committed, but I think the scales will fall from her eyes in a couple of years as to how tough it really is. I want to enable her to make her own decision on how far she wants to take it.

 

Personally, I don't think I want her to be a "real" ballerina, but it's not my life and if that's her dream and she is good enough, then I will 100% support her. So I am trying to educate myself on all things ballet so that I can steer and support her in the direction that is right for her.

 

I had never heard the expression "banana feet". Made me laugh.

[Medora]

As for physio lessons for young children, I’m not convinced it would help with JA auditions specifically… you can’t fundamentally change the way someone is put together and at that age they know what they want to see at auditions. I don’t think you can influence your chances beyond a certain point. I think the world is always full of people who are happy to take our money, there is so much out there and I’d chose carefully how to spend both time and money particularly when it comes to ages 10 and below

[Medora]

Just now, Elz said:

So many helpful replies, thank you.

 

I am not really hung up on whether she gets in or not. If she does, it will be wonderful experience. If not, as many have said, there are lots of other great schemes going on. 

 

She is 8 and totally transfixed by "real" ballerinas. She is very focused and committed, but I think the scales will fall from her eyes in a couple of years as to how tough it really is. I want to enable her to make her own decision on how far she wants to take it.

 

Personally, I don't think I want her to be a "real" ballerina, but it's not my life and if that's her dream and she is good enough, then I will 100% support her. So I am trying to educate myself on all things ballet so that I can steer and support her in the direction that is right for her.

 

I had never heard the expression "banana feet". Made me laugh.

Bad feet are sometimes referred to as biscuits 😂

[SplitSoul]

1 hour ago, Medora said:

Bad feet are sometimes referred to as biscuits 😂

🤣🤣🤣 or dinner plates?