People who just don't understand!

[ParentTaxi]

MLN, I think the point is that quite a lot of schools - including some very good ones - don't offer triple science. So universities etc regard double science from a school-which-only-does-double as perfectly fine, if combined with good A-levels.

[Pups_mum]

I have to admit that I don't "get" the concept of double science at all. The 3 subjects are completely different to my mind. It's not uncommon to find someone who is very good at one or two of the sciences and not that interested in the third. Presumably if all 3 are weighted equally,poor performance in one could drop the overall grade, potentially affecting the students ability to further study the science/s that they are good at if there is only a single mark to be judged on.

We don't have "double humanities" covering history, geography and RE, or a "double language" course where you study French German and Spanish but get an overall grade, so why lump the sciences together?

[ParentTaxi]

Pups-mum, the way it is taught at the DC's school is as 3 separate sciences, by 3 specialist teachers, but they only get 2 qualifications in the end.

 

I can see your point about weakness in one subject affecting the others. However, as double is usually a timetabling decision, the timetabling of 'all doubles together' is much easier than catering for all possible pairings of 2 Sciences and then a choice of alternatives - so e.g. those who do Biology + Chemistry + History would have History timetabled in the Physics slot, those who did Chemistry + Physics + History would have it in the Biology slot etc etc.

 

i think you can also argue in terms of a child's overall education, a solid grounding in all 3 sciences, sufficient to provide a basis for an A-level in any if the pupil works hard, is better than an early decision to drop one and only do 2 sciences, which would (except in very unusual circumstances) rule out that A-level altogether.

 

It would, actually, probably be fine to drop Biology - I did Biology for O-level but not A-level, and have a biological sciences PhD, but I suspect that the most common one to drop might be Physics, which does close more doors.

 

It would be interesting, actually, to think of which subject choices at this level are 'irrevocable' - ie they definitively close doors. I have known people at very good universities taking Economics degrees who haven't studied Economics before, people doing language degrees including languages they have never studied, biologists who dropped biology at 16, but not physicists who haven't studied Physics continuously, for example.

[aileen]

I've heard that many pupils find the jump from IGCSE Chemistry to A Level Chemistry huge. My daughter is considering her A Level options at the moment and, although she quite likes and gets good marks in the subject, we have discounted it because several people who presumably got an A* in the subject at IGCSE or GCSE found it enormously difficult at A Level, certainly at the beginning. Obviously, you need Chemistry for certain careers and degrees but, if you don't, it's best avoided IMO unless you really have a passion and flair for the subject. Doing a subject that you really struggle with at A Level can have a knock-on effect on your other subjects as you have to spend a disproportionate amount of time on it. It sounds dreadfully calculating but, these days, if you want to get into a highly ranked university you have got to maximize your chances of getting the top two grades and choose accordingly. Apart from the subject(s) to be studied, subject choices generally don't matter to highly ranked universities; they just want high grades and they are all chasing the three A grade students. Whilst you don't want to study too many 'soft' subjects there is no point burdening yourself with 'hard' ones that you struggle with because you think that this makes you look a more serious student. It's all about predicted grades when universities are giving out offers. Even the most fantastic personal statement won't compensate for lower predicted grades. Tbh, I'm doubtful that the personal statements are even read in most cases as many offers are made within hours or a couple of days of the UCAS form being submitted to UCAS. Anyway, I've rather digressed from the original topic.....

 

PS I wouldn't do modern languages at A Level either. It's very, very difficult to get an A* in them unless you are bi-lingual.

[aileen]

Not taking A Level Maths can rule out many Economics, Engineering and Computer Science courses and so it is a risk dropping it if you don't know what you plan to study at university when you choose your A Levels.

[ParentTaxi]

Aileen, agreed. DS is most likely to do Maths, History, Economics as his core 3 A-levels, and possibly Further Maths, Music or Politics. As far as we can see at the moment, it doesn't rule out the History route but widens his choices in other areas.

[BlueLou]

I have to admit that I don't "get" the concept of double science at all. The 3 subjects are completely different to my mind. It's not uncommon to find someone who is very good at one or two of the sciences and not that interested in the third. Presumably if all 3 are weighted equally,poor performance in one could drop the overall grade, potentially affecting the students ability to further study the science/s that they are good at if there is only a single mark to be judged on.

 

 

Although the grade is determined by an average of the performance in the 3 sciences, schools and students often still get information regarding performance in the separate areas and so can assess suitability for further study. So, if for example a student got BB overall, but in fact got As in the Biology and Chemistry components but a D in the Physics component, this would be known to the school. This is because the school gets a breakdown of performance for each paper. However, this only works if students follow a double award syllabus where the 3 sciences have 3 separate papers - you can do a mixed core science and mixed additional science paper instead but this is uncommon! 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

MLN - my son is In an IGCSE school & dd in a GCSE school & so I've got a bit of a comparison.

 

I think the difference you mention between the two will be much less under the new GCSE syllabi. There is a lot more content & of a higher level than under the old syllabus. Current year 10 will be the first cohort to take the new GCSE.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Picturesinthefirelight

[Legseleven]

I agree with Pictures; from talking to friends' children, there is currently a considerable gap between GCSE and IGCSE in a wide range of subjects, with IGCSE covering more topics in more depth.

 

I don't believe universities will place much, if any, weight on whether double or triple science was studied at GCSE. As long as an aspiring science or allied degree student got good grades in whatever science GCSE was studied, which varies from school to school and is certainly not a matter of 'clever children take triple and less academic children take double' - although I know it can be presented in that way at schools where triple science is the norm! - and good grades in a range of other GCSE subjects, that is what will be expected.

 

I also think references to the 'EBacc' can be rather over-emphasised as though it is somehow a shiny 'new' qualification level - or even, we were told by one parent, the English version of the international Baccalaureate (we wish!) when it seemed to be simply a way of referring to what we called 'core subjects and options' way back when I was doing O levels: English literature, English language, maths, a modern foreign language, at least one science and one humanity were required, with the other 4 or 5 subjects chosen according to strengths and/or possible university and career aspirations.

[balletbean]

O M G someone get me a drink NOW. A cuppa isn't going to work after the morning I've just had. 

 

Meeting at school as DD in Yr10 wants to drop one of her option subjects. (Humanity). Her reclaimed class time to be used to additional study/homework time for her other subjects. Rather than spreading herself too thinly and possibly diluting her final exam grades

 

You would think I had asked the impossible. 

 

"Do you remember ******** she left and went to RBS and performed for 8 years then decided to give it up and study medicine. Something she could not have done if she had dropped a subject"!!!! 

 

Then related a dancing career to that of sportsmen and women. Talking about a girl (only last year) that wanted to drop a subject to allow her more pool time as a swimmer. 

 

I could not get across to them that statistically more pupils make a career out of performing arts than sports. So much so that there are funds available for performing arts and vocational schools through government funding schemes unlike sports training that relies on sponsorship 

 

I do dislike it intensely when discussing your own child's education and welfare and future career that they refer back to past pupils as an example, No two children are a like.

 

My DD isn't struggling at all and her predicted grades are excellent but then the Headmaster casually said "****** is so unlike her sister" with a smile on his face.

 

 

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr  so so angry,so so frustrated. They aren't interested in the individual child just on the school exam results.

 

Teachers just don't understand. 

 

Ran over for now................

[hoglett]

O M G someone get me a drink NOW. A cuppa isn't going to work after the morning I've just had.

 

Meeting at school as DD in Yr10 wants to drop one of her option subjects. (Humanity). Her reclaimed class time to be used to additional study/homework time for her other subjects. Rather than spreading herself too thinly and possibly diluting her final exam grades

 

You would think I had asked the impossible.

 

"Do you remember ******** she left and went to RBS and performed for 8 years then decided to give it up and study medicine. Something she could not have done if she had dropped a subject"!!!!

 

Then related a dancing career to that of sportsmen and women. Talking about a girl (only last year) that wanted to drop a subject to allow her more pool time as a swimmer.

 

I could not get across to them that statistically more pupils make a career out of performing arts than sports. So much so that there are funds available for performing arts and vocational schools through government funding schemes unlike sports training that relies on sponsorship

 

I do dislike it intensely when discussing your own child's education and welfare and future career that they refer back to past pupils as an example, No two children are a like.

 

My DD isn't struggling at all and her predicted grades are excellent but then the Headmaster casually said "****** is so unlike her sister" with a smile on his face.

 

 

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr so so angry,so so frustrated. They aren't interested in the individual child just on the school exam results.

 

Teachers just don't understand.

 

Ran over for now................

[hoglett]

Sorry balletbean,sounds awful. Did they agree in the end? Sounds like they weren't prepared to consider your daughter the way that they compared her to everybody else! Who knows what the future holds for our DDs but you just want to do what's best don't you?

[balletbean]

Thanks Hoglett,   no resolution, tutor will talk to my DD tomorrow. Gosh, she was a force to be reckoned with! Pity my DD tomorrow! Eek  

 

I don't want favours I just want my DD to be recognised as a individual and not compared to others. Good or bad.

 

PS It was supposed to be "Rant over" but ended up in Ran..  Fingers! 

Edited October 5, 2016 by balletbean

[BlueLou]

I’m starting to think that the sole reason some schools seem to massively over-estimate the importance of Geography is that a disproportionate number of heads and deputies seem to be Geographers…….

[balletbean]

Coupled with they want money for my DD to go on a week long field trip next summer. Wellies are not my DD choice of footwear.

 

Edited to add:

 

How would these schools react if, after selecting options at a relatively young age a student has a "light bulb" moment a year later and discovers that her chosen subjects are not compatible with their uni/career choice. I would be very surprised if schools didn't accommodate those students. Performing Arts in all forms should be no different. 

 

On speaking to a lovely lady at the local education dept, she reported that "those students that drop a subject at this stage, do not improve the grades of their other subjects as they waste the extra time achieved on their timetable"!!!!  They obviously do not know my DD

Edited October 5, 2016 by balletbean

[Pups_mum]

Oh dear balletbean, that sounds frustrating.

I think that the examples the staff gave you are poor I must say. A student who had been to the RBS and performed for some years before making a career change would have been judged on the merits of her life achievements until then, not just on her GCSE results. Many vocational school students sit less subjects at GCSE and A level than those in mainstream schools anyway. And I am certain that the non attainment of geography GCSE wouldn't impact significantly on a medical career! And for every anecdote about someone who has been unsuccessful in a particular field you can find one where the opposite is true. Such stories really mean nothing.

Yes, it's true that the odds are against long term performing careers for most students, and a plan B is very important, but I seriously doubt that one more or less GCSE is going to be a deal breaker for many people. Especially a GCSE in a subject which the student isn't interested in.

I hope you manage to reach some kind of agreement.

[balletbean]

Thank you Pups_mum, 

 

I really thought talking to my DD Mentor just over a week ago, we were all on the same page. How very wrong could I be?

 

It's the support of others on this forum that keeps us all fighting an unnecessary battle. 

 

I shall have a long chat with my DD tonight when she finally gets back to her 2nd home (1st being the dance studio) . 17 consecutive years of being engaged with schools (penalty for having 4 children) has finally got the better of me. It's about time we parted company, before it all goes horribly wrong. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by balletbean

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Her GCSE's would have borne no relevance at all apart from possessing the minimum as if you have been out of formal education for more than a certain number of years you have to do either an access ourse or A Level/Level 3 study again prior to applying to any university.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Is she taking at least 9 GCSEs including maths, English & double science balletbean?

 

That's all she needs. For Progress 8 she needs one out of history, geography or a language to keep the school happy.

[balletbean]

Her GCSE's would have borne no relevance at all apart from possessing the minimum as if you have been out of formal education for more than a certain number of years you have to do either an access ourse or A Level/Level 3 study again prior to applying to any university.

I totally agree with you, however when in a meeting and its two against one (me being the one) and they throw a curved ball at you. The most intelligent confident of parents can be struck dumb into silence. Purely by the stupidity of a statement just used, by those you expect to be more informed. I just could not respond without being sarcastic and lower myself to their standard.   

[balletbean]

Is she taking at least 9 GCSEs including maths, English & double science balletbean?

 

That's all she needs. For Progress 8 she needs one out of history, geography or a language to keep the school happy.

Yr 10, Having already taken Media Studies (last summer) now studying. 

Eng Lang

Eng Lit

Double science (biology/Chemistry/Physics) Classed as 2 exams.

Maths

History

RS

Performing Arts

German

ICT

Geography - At the moment

I think that's it. 

 

They did mention Progress 8 in the meeting, I've never heard of that but didn't admit to it. Could you explain more?.  I need an education (lol) 

Edited October 5, 2016 by balletbean

[taxi4ballet]

As far as I can tell from Googling, Progress 8 is a measure of the school's performance, so nothing to concern yourself with there then!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

On school pick up but know what you mean having been struck dumb in Sen meetings.

 

Taking teacher husband with me is useful but not always possible.

[balletbean]

Unfortunately I don't have one of those Picturesinthefirelight

 

Taking teacher husband with me is useful but not always possible.

[Pups_mum]

That sounds more than enough to me balletbean. My children's secondary school don't even offer that many GCSEs and yet they are considered a very high performing school by a variety of bodies.

I know LOTS of people who have been accepted at Oxbridge, Russell Group universities etc onto the most selective courses with less GCSEs than your daughter would have even after dropping geography. It's absolute nonsense to suggest that a child will be significantly disadvantaged by having 11 GCSEs instead of 12. I get wound up by our school on occasion, but goodness, they sound like paragons of reason compared to yours.

[sarahw]

My dd is also in Y10 and had she stayed at her outstanding) academic school she would've done 10. The school cut back on numbers as a response to new exams. I think you have lots of legs to stand on balletbean - it's just so energy sapping this sort of nonsense. ....

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Ok - teachers please feel free to correct me but Progress 8 is the new way of assessing childrens & schools results rather than the traditional percentage of A-Cs etc

 

Basically only the results of a students 8 best GCSE's taken in one sitting will count towards the league tables.

 

Maths will be given a double weighting

So will English as long as both English & English Lit are taken

 

3 subjects need to be English Bac subjects so Science (double or triple), a language, history or Geography

 

The last 3 subjects can be any other subject at GCSE.

 

Any subjects taken early will not be counted even if that subject is re-taken in year 11.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

My son goes to an academically selective school with the best a level results in the area.

 

They offer 9 GCSEs with the option to take a 10th as an extra curricular (drama or computers) or Further Maths.

[balletbean]

Thank you one and all. 

 

Sorry for my rant earlier, I had to just express my frustration somewhere. A cuppa was not going to work for me this morning. 

 

I feel more prepared, to support my DD in her meeting tomorrow. 

 

Still would like to know more about this "Progress 8" as I'm sure I will have the 'pleasure' of the Headmasters office again before this is all sorted. 

[sarahw]

Absolutely no need to apologise. ....

Edited October 5, 2016 by sarahw

[balletbean]

My son goes to an academically selective school with the best a level results in the area.

 

They offer 9 GCSEs with the option to take a 10th as an extra curricular (drama or computers) or Further Maths.

It's not unusual for some pupils in the area to boast 15 to 16 GCSE's on results day.  

 

16! I didn't even know there were that amount of subjects that could be squeezed into a school timetable. 

 

Quite happy for 9 or 10 academic exams with good grades, with a mentally healthy child at the end of the exam season.  

[Harwel]

As I understand it from my nephew who is at medical school, even IF your dd wanted to change careers and study medicine the universities would score your dd GCSE's and only take into account the best 9. Therefore, no point in doing more than that. And as Pictures said, if your dd was a mature student when she changed careers, GCSE's would be irrelevant as she would have to show recent study of A'levels or an access course. Good luck, with your next round with the school - they sound very closed minded.

[balletbean]

Ok - teachers please feel free to correct me but Progress 8 is the new way of assessing childrens & schools results rather than the traditional percentage of A-Cs etc

 

Basically only the results of a students 8 best GCSE's taken in one sitting will count towards the league tables.

 

Maths will be given a double weighting

So will English as long as both English & English Lit are taken

 

3 subjects need to be English Bac subjects so Science (double or triple), a language, history or Geography

 

The last 3 subjects can be any other subject at GCSE.

 

Any subjects taken early will not be counted even if that subject is re-taken in year 11.

That's fab thank you. Explains the '8' very clearly.  

 

In simple terms anything over 8 is a bonus but not essential. realistically speaking even Needlework/Textiles for a dancer is actually way more important than some other subjects. They strive to engage pupils to make career choices as early as yr8 but then don't appear to have the support network in place to enable a child to reach their goals. Still fixated on the careers of finance, teaching or medicine. Nothing more. 

 

 

I feel totally educated now.