Article royal ballet/carlos acosta

[drdance]

Something I have just picked up on (having re-read the OP) that Mr Acosta speaks of "girls". Since he seems to be referring to those already dancing professionally, rather than teenage students, shouldn't that be "women"?

 

Yes! One of my pet hates among professional, adult dancers (and even upper school students) is the use of the term 'girls' and 'boys' by the staff. That term in itself (when used regarding adults) potentially has many undertones such as suggesting inferiority, a lack of independence or could promote a kind of 'learned helplessness'. Then there's the debate about physicality among professional female dancers and a prevalence of 'child-like' bodies. 

 

I'm sure most dancers/teachers/AD's use the terms without any thought whatsoever, but the subliminal message is that professional dancers are childlike, immature (physically and emotionally) and are inferior to the 'adult' staff who are "their superiors" and "must be obeyed" and "must not be questioned or challenged" - (not my opinion BTW!). 

 

There are some schools who actively avoid this, and use the term ladies and men where possible, and I think I've seen 'ladies' and 'mens' used in a competition recently (might have been the Prix de Lausanne) but I cringe every time I hear Darcey Bussell refer to the pro dancers on Strictly as 'boys' and 'girls'.

[LinMM]

In London we often get called just "guys" for both sexes!!

[Lildancer96]

Can I just point out that for tall girls, 9 stone is NOT heavy - it's only 57 kg and with a height of 170cms (which is not unusual these days) that only gives a BMI of around 19. If the girl has done sufficient core strength and upper body training, all of which help you "lift yourself" in pdd, a male student should easily be able to lift her - assuming he's similarly tall and has done proper strength training. Male ballet dancers rarely lift a "dead weight" - the female is putting in an equal amount of work.

I agree Anna - I think 9 stone is a healthy weight for a dancer over about 5 and half ft . I would hate to think that dancers were reading this and worrying about weight .

Edited August 11, 2016 by Lildancer96

[taxi4ballet]

Yes! One of my pet hates among professional, adult dancers (and even upper school students) is the use of the term 'girls' and 'boys' by the staff. That term in itself (when used regarding adults) potentially has many undertones such as suggesting inferiority, a lack of independence or could promote a kind of 'learned helplessness'. Then there's the debate about physicality among professional female dancers and a prevalence of 'child-like' bodies. 

 

I'm sure most dancers/teachers/AD's use the terms without any thought whatsoever, but the subliminal message is that professional dancers are childlike, immature (physically and emotionally) and are inferior to the 'adult' staff who are "their superiors" and "must be obeyed" and "must not be questioned or challenged" - (not my opinion BTW!). 

 

There are some schools who actively avoid this, and use the term ladies and men where possible, and I think I've seen 'ladies' and 'mens' used in a competition recently (might have been the Prix de Lausanne) but I cringe every time I hear Darcey Bussell refer to the pro dancers on Strictly as 'boys' and 'girls'.

My dd's upper school refers to their female students as ladies

[alison]

 

Yes! One of my pet hates among professional, adult dancers (and even upper school students) is the use of the term 'girls' and 'boys' by the staff.

 

Even more so various commentators at the Olympics referring to "girls" but "men" - at least if you're going to infantilise be consistent about it!

[BlueLou]

Criticising Acosta’s use of the word ‘girls’ seems a bit harsh. I presume English is not his first language and he would be unaware of such subtleties.

[taxi4ballet]

Criticising Acosta’s use of the word ‘girls’ seems a bit harsh. I presume English is not his first language and he would be unaware of such subtleties.

It's not just him though is it? It seems to pervade a whole attitude to women.

 

I answered the phone at work the other day, for the man at the other end to ask: "So you must be the new girl then?".

Edited August 12, 2016 by taxi4ballet

[Kate_N]

I presume English is not his first language and he would be unaware of such subtleties.

 

 

And I assume that the Spanish language makes a similar distinction between adult women and children. It is infantilising, and is generally applied to adult women in ways that it's not so widely used for adult men (although there are the BalletBoyz    ).

[Jan McNulty]

It's not just him though is it? It seems to pervade a whole attitude to women.

 

I answered the phone at work the other day, for the man at the other end to ask: "So you must be the new girl then?".

 

 

I have heard many ballet dancers at a variety of stages of their career refer to their colleagues and other dancers as girls and boys.  I don't like it myself but it seems to be an ingrained habit.

[BlueLou]

Maybe I’m just less sensitive about these things. I’m always quite pleased when I’m invited on a ‘girls’ night out’ and would not be offended by being called ‘the new girl’. Maybe it’s a regional thing?? Anyway, I’m sure it wasn’t his intention to ‘infantilise’ women dancers. I’m guessing that he would not object to being referred to as a ‘boy’ himself either. 

Edited August 12, 2016 by BlueLou

[taxi4ballet]

Maybe I’m just less sensitive about these things. I’m always quite pleased when I’m invited on a ‘girls’ night out’ and would not be offended by being called ‘the new girl’.

I've been in the job three years, I'm 54 and in charge of the finance department. Being called 'The new girl' is not something one yearns for

[Guest]

I've been in the job three years, I'm 54 and in charge of the finance department. Being called 'The new girl' is not something one yearns for

No definitely not! You must be way too nice and helpful! The proudest day of my working life was being told that some US colleagues referred to me as 'that bloody woman in the European group'.

[taxi4ballet]

Haha, this same week I spoke to somebody on the phone who then rang back when I wasn't in the office, spoke to my (male) colleague and said "I spoke to your secretary earlier about..."

 

Er... I'm not his secretary, I'm his boss!

[amos73]

Haha, this same week I spoke to somebody on the phone who then rang back when I wasn't in the office, spoke to my (male) colleague and said "I spoke to your secretary earlier about..."

 

Er... I'm not his secretary, I'm his boss!

 

That would make me sooooooo cross taxi!

[Kate_N]

It's a pretty common experience of many women. I'm very senior in my field, and usually run things - but the number of times I've been accosted in my office as if I'm someone else's secretary is surprising. It's usually quite rude demands from delivery men or students, because I'm a female,  working at a computer with the office door open, and my office is the first in the corridor where my unit is located. It's interesting how differently people talk to me when they know my title.

[amos73]

It's a pretty common experience of many women. I'm very senior in my field, and usually run things - but the number of times I've been accosted in my office as if I'm someone else's secretary is surprising. It's usually quite rude demands from delivery men or students, because I'm a female,  working at a computer with the office door open, and my office is the first in the corridor where my unit is located. It's interesting how differently people talk to me when they know my title.

 

Kate, this happens to me too. My desk is the first you see as you come through the door (reception is sort of behind the front door) and as I am a woman I am always getting delivery men coming up to me and asking me to sign, assuming I am the receptionist. In fact I am the Finance Director, lol. 

[taxi4ballet]

We have digressed a bit on this thread haven't we?

 

"New girl" man the other day said he wanted a copy of a particular document. I had no idea who he was, and I don't get involved in that side of the business anyway. He actually needed the help of somebody else in our office but I was there on my own at the time. Anyway, when I said I couldn't help him, he said (in condescending tones) "It's perfectly simple - all you have to do is go to the file, open it, copy the page and send it to me."

 

Oh really? Like I'm going to send a copy of confidential paperwork to a complete stranger? I don't think so!

[Sherbert]

Kate, this happens to me too. My desk is the first you see as you come through the door (reception is sort of behind the front door) and as I am a woman I am always getting delivery men coming up to me and asking me to sign, assuming I am the receptionist. In fact I am the Finance Director, lol.

Of course it could simply be that they come to you because you are the first desk they see, why walk past you to go to someone else. I would expect a delivery woman would do just the same...

 

Anyway, back to the original comment, we are assuming that Acosta is correct in his opinion (expressed a few years ago). If you look at recent cohort of RBS upper school the gender split is pretty even and swings in both directions year on year. I hadn't personally observed a lack of strong female dancers, but am only a casual observer.

 

My son's year at RBS has suffered some significant changes over the years, no less than the girls (and, yes, they are girls...).

[Kate_N]

Sherbert, the assumption is: woman, behind a desk, must be a Secretary. I'll grunt at her to get her to do what I want. Particularly as I usually dress quite casually at work (I'm often teaching in the studio, so then it's jogging bottoms & socks, hair in a ponytail!) 

 

If they see "Professor" on my door, they speak to me quite differently. They ask if I can help them, rather than tell me what to do.

 

I know this, because it happens to me relatively frequently. And I think the initial assumption is "female = secretary'. I've had people express surprise when I'm introduced by my job title - I even had someone say "You're a woman! How can you be a professor?" 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Well I've known delivery men ask our male MD to sign for deliveries or equally they will ask one of the lads in the workshop.

 

Which brings me to another point I guess.

 

Rightly or wrongly the men 'on the tools' are referred to as lads & the ones in the office are guys or just office staff.

 

Me & my colleague in accounts/payroll (I'm 42 & she is 63) are affectionately known as the Rottweilers due to her hold on finances & my ways of dealing with unwanted sales calls & overdue accounts!

[LinMM]

I haven't seen this particular article on Acosta so didn't realise was a few years old and not current.

 

Sometimes things can change quickly so may no longer be particularly relevant .....though the discussion that has come from it has been interesting.

 

As a retired teacher I often got called "miss" by workmen ...some parents ...and other visitors........like they were one of my pupils! Probably out of respect for the children rather than referring to any apparent youthfulness!!

[Jan McNulty]

I assume this is the article.  It dates back to 2013.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/news/leaving-the-barre-ballet-in-crisis-over-lack-of-women-says-carlos-acosta-8720968.html

[amos73]

Sherbet, there are 3 men sitting on the same desk pod as me, (one is the managing partner, another a consultant and his junior,) 2 of these men face the door and one is considerably younger than me (the junior) so they are the faces anyone coming in the front door sees first, yet none of these men get asked to sign for parcels etc! Just saying ...