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Article royal ballet/carlos acosta


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Hi all i read an interesting article here is a small paragraph.

 

 

One of the most acclaimed ballet dancers of our time has hinted that the classical art is in crisis.

 

'We need more girls... girls are non-existent,' said Carlos Acosta, 40, of the lack of top-level female ballet dancers, those of an equal stature to himself.

 

The Royal Ballet school of London agrees with him, revealing that while over the last few years overwhelmingly more girls apply in younger years, by age 16 there are more boys than girls actually studying at the School.

 

'Our directors have found it more of a challenge to find really talented girls in the past few years. The wave of talented boys has continued as the myth that ballet is for girls is even more widely dispelled,' said a spokesperson for the school

 

 

Any thoughts on this. The thing i find interesting is that it says by 16 there are more boys than girls.

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Perhaps if some of the leading schools were not quite do quick to assess teenage girls out during the body changes they go through during puberty but look more at actual talent & ability until things have settled down then they may not risk losing talent along the way.

This with bells on!!

 

And a few more MDS funded places wouldn't go astray either.

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My thoughts after reading this are that often the boys start dance later, so perhaps they are not as "burnt out" by 16 as the girls are? Ds, who has only shown an interest in dance in the past year, is thriving on it but wouldn't have been ready developmentally before now. Dd, on the other hand, started when she was 3.

 

What do others think?

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Could it be that a large part of girls' repertoire training revolves around corps work, where the have to all do exactly the same thing as one another; and the boys are encouraged to develop a more individual style, and get more coaching in the way of virtuosity and solos?

 

Is it that girls are ten a penny, and boys are in short supply so they are nurtured and get a lot more attention; and less emphasis is placed on physical 'perfection'?

 

Who knows, but whatever it is, there must be something in the system of training that has an effect somewhere.

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I totally agree PITF - I also think that the schools, especially Royal, prioritise certain things at audition which might not be to the benefit of the dazzling, stand out super talented young dancers.

 

I think you could have a point DrDance.

 

More girls apply than boys at 11, there is an emphasis on a particular body aesthetic for girls, that they believe they can train 'their way'. If during puberty their body changes they can get assessed out, equally if it materialises that despite having the perfect body type the training hasn't turned them into 'stand out' dancers they might get assessed out. Boys they have less chance to pick a certain body type as there are not as many to choose from. Does this mean they choose them for other things, as you say, which would benefit in terms of finding stand out dancers?

 

Also, it has been said in the press and discussed on this forum previously that there is a tendency to not encourage stand out, dazzling dancers amongst girls during training, but then to recruit those very same types of dancers as winners of international competitions (that the school does not allow their own home grown students to enter!). These 'stars' are then brought in to the detriment perhaps of the original cohort there?

 

There is a lot to think about here ...

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Boys are certainly chosen for their body type/facility, but I get the feeling, watching classes, that boys are generally allowed to have a bit more personality in class. There seems to be a 'squashing' of personality in some schools for the girls but not for the boys.

 

The aesthetic for ballet is much stronger for women than men. The requirements for their dancing is different and they can't be directly compared. The men have to be weight lifters too! And there is another reason that the women are required to be a certain way, they have to be lifted. Even the strongest male dancer can't be expected to carry a 9 stone dancer around and still dance themselves. It's not safe for him or her!

 

I completely agree with Amos73 last paragraph above - I would quote it if I knew how to get it in the right place!!

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I also think that the schools, especially Royal, prioritise certain things at audition which might not be to the benefit of the dazzling, stand out super talented young dancers.

 

 

Could it be that a large part of girls' repertoire training revolves around corps work, where the have to all do exactly the same thing as one another; and the boys are encouraged to develop a more individual style, and get more coaching in the way of virtuosity and solos?

 

 

 

 

More girls apply than boys at 11, there is an emphasis on a particular body aesthetic for girls, that they believe they can train 'their way'. If during puberty their body changes they can get assessed out, equally if it materialises that despite having the perfect body type the training hasn't turned them into 'stand out' dancers they might get assessed out. Boys they have less chance to pick a certain body type as there are not as many to choose from. Does this mean they choose them for other things, as you say, which would benefit in terms of finding stand out dancers?

 

Also, it has been said in the press and discussed on this forum previously that there is a tendency to not encourage stand out, dazzling dancers amongst girls during training, but then to recruit those very same types of dancers as winners of international competitions (that the school does not allow their own home grown students to enter!). These 'stars' are then brought in to the detriment perhaps of the original cohort there?

 

 

 

The aesthetic for ballet is much stronger for women than men. The requirements for their dancing is different and they can't be directly compared. The men have to be weight lifters too! And there is another reason that the women are required to be a certain way, they have to be lifted. Even the strongest male dancer can't be expected to carry a 9 stone dancer around and still dance themselves. It's not safe for him or her!

 

 

Wouldn’t it be interesting if companies took on fabulous young dancers then choreographed or modified their rep for those dancers, rather than limiting themselves by selecting and training only very specific types of dancers to fit their pre-existing rep? 

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Wouldn’t it be interesting if companies took on fabulous young dancers then choreographed or modified their rep for those dancers, rather than limiting themselves by selecting and training only very specific types of dancers to fit their pre-existing rep?

I think there is a move towards this, especially with more contemporary rep entering even the most classical companies. However, if they did this at the expense of the classical rep, classical ballet would disappear for ever. I for one think there is a place for contemporary and ballet, the dancers are different, just as good as each other but different. You have to know where you fit - not an easy task. I view it in a similar way to academics, people can be very clever but lean more towards the sciences or the humanities, a science minded brain will not excel in the humanities and vice versa both equally clever, different brain.

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And there is another reason that the women are required to be a certain way, they have to be lifted. Even the strongest male dancer can't be expected to carry a 9 stone dancer around and still dance themselves. It's not safe for him or her!

 

I assume physical lightness must also be to a female dancer's own benefit, particularly to minimize the amount of force directed through the leg, foot and toe when en pointe.

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Boys are certainly chosen for their body type/facility, but I get the feeling, watching classes, that boys are generally allowed to have a bit more personality in class. There seems to be a 'squashing' of personality in some schools for the girls but not for the boys.

The aesthetic for ballet is much stronger for women than men. The requirements for their dancing is different and they can't be directly compared. The men have to be weight lifters too! And there is another reason that the women are required to be a certain way, they have to be lifted. Even the strongest male dancer can't be expected to carry a 9 stone dancer around and still dance themselves. It's not safe for him or her!

I completely agree with Amos73 last paragraph above - I would quote it if I knew how to get it in the right place!!

Can I just point out that for tall girls, 9 stone is NOT heavy - it's only 57 kg and with a height of 170cms (which is not unusual these days) that only gives a BMI of around 19. If the girl has done sufficient core strength and upper body training, all of which help you "lift yourself" in pdd, a male student should easily be able to lift her - assuming he's similarly tall and has done proper strength training. Male ballet dancers rarely lift a "dead weight" - the female is putting in an equal amount of work.

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I assume physical lightness must also be to a female dancer's own benefit, particularly to minimize the amount of force directed through the leg, foot and toe when en pointe.

Yes - to a point - but it's not the only factor - if you are light but have poor core strength and poor leg muscle strength you would find it just as hard to do sustained pointework as someone heavier.

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I hear what you are saying Anna and obviously weight in absolute terms is a very delicate subject to discuss, and possibly wrong of me to bring up. As a dancer of 5'8'' myself I was acutely aware of weight requirements and always heavier a than my 5'3'' and 5'5'' counterparts which was perfectly acceptable and understandable. However, a ballet dancer is naturally very slight (regardless of height) and very low in the BMI scale - but I emphasise NATURALLY, as we all know dancers are incredibly strong and can't do what's required of them if they are dieting to meet the requirements. I'll say no more on the subject as I don't wish to cause concern/upset but a realistic view of what a ballet dancer IS should always be front of mind when deciding if this career choice is the right one for a DC. Rightly or wrongly, being a great dancer is not the only criteria.

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Given that we have young dancers reading this forum, I think you're right in that weight is a delicate subject. And with respect I do disagree with generalising about ballet dancers, for example "a ballet dancer is very slight". Yes, anyone dancing full time is probably going to be naturally at the lower end of the BMI scale, just as a full-time athlete could be.

 

However, there are ballerinas of all builds in both the Royal Ballet and ENB, to give two examples. Naturally slim, definitely, but slight? Not often, these days, as ballerinas are aware of how much muscle strength, core strength, upper body strength and even arm and shoulder strength they need to sustain a relatively injury free ballet career. They are doing more gym work, gyrotonics, free weights - some surprisingly heavy (I've seen pictures of Cojocaru using kettlebells, for instance). If you look at photos of Misty Copeland, Zenaida Yanowsky, and even Marianela Nuñez, they do not look "slight" by any means, but slim, strong and healthy: https://www.flickr.com/photos/royaloperahouse/13993113402/in/photolist-pze2EJ-qWxGVF-drDut1-nJBN3R-cwRVe5-cwRWYu-ppnEp3-ppnE9J-gxMMpe-nkvPYL-fXNzMw-cxXcY1-qbijAb-njwn6U-fqW6Zc-c4C33J-nK6rpS-jQnzFM-efBWyr-c7E1jf-frbo29-Fns3C5-ghSri2-qE9axw-c4C3dU-cxXd4j-dkYF3M-brC3oY-fqThqk-iyNA1Q-fqTh5x-hsdhka-dkYFbx-ac3gfV-pQegMc-qEf7St-rv9T9F-p7U4k2-fr8y5J-pJNKSD-pnniBs-iqysk7-guvKwj-drDkyH-s9Z4AD-i6wZAG-nkvZLZ-nzYKdb-njALZu-grE1pV/

 

The other vitally important thing we should be emphasising to female students is 1. the importance of fuelling themselves sufficiently so that they are not burning more calories than they can take in, and 2. the importance for future fertility, cardiac and skeletal health of maintaining sufficient internal body fat.

 

Strength, stamina, musicality, facility and talent is what we should be focussing on - definitely not weight. If you have all that AND you're a beautiful dancer, well, you still may not be what one particular AD is looking for. But chances are you'll be another AD's choice - and hopefully you'll be looking after your long term health too.

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We have just had an ex dancer from ABT take our class.....still young early 20's at a guess and she had a nice figure etc etc but was definitely not what I would call "slight"

She was tallish about 5ft. 6/7 ins and quite muscular but she looked fit and healthy and had just come from a job with a major ballet Company like ABT!!

 

So I was wondering whether Acosta's comment was UK based? Or did he mean any female dancers throughout all major ballet companies?

 

It is interesting some of the comments here about the "squashing" more of girls personalities.

When you talk to a lot of now amateur dancers who had hoped at one time "to make it" something that frequently comes up is that they didn't think they had the CONFIDENCE in themselves to push for a career or even continue dancing at an earlier age.

 

This seems a shame and maybe inherent in some training....I'm not sure..

But Ive seen a few who are now amateurs but now in 30/40's who are genuinely talented but perhaps were not encouraged enough at the right moment??

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It is interesting some of the comments here about the "squashing" more of girls personalities.

 

 

This is really interesting. I think this is a reflection/mirroring of the general sexism of our culture, where girls & women have shown themselves equally as capable as boys/men in very many - all - areas of our society, but are still in the minority as higher earners, leaders of business, politics, and industry.

 

This is an ongoing & live issue in the creative industries, where there are regular enquiries - sponsored by a number of industry & private bodies - into the position of women. There is still a problem: women are very much still in the minority of leadership positions throughout the performing arts. There are fewer women artistic directors, theatre directors, choreographers, playwrights ... and so on.

 

Girls & women are socialised into particular behaviors & mentalities, as a boys & men. We ascribe qualities we call 'feminine' and 'masculine' to women and men - but guess which qualities are seen to be most advantageous in terms of position, income, and influence ... Women who lead are often seen as 'unfeminine' or bossy or aggressive. And so on.

 

The training in ballet emphasises a kind of 'performance' of an idealised femininity. Smile, look beautiful, look fragile, look pleasing to the spectator's eye - even though we all know the strength that is required to perform this ideal is anything but fragile!

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Differing view of slight - Marianella and Alina are incredibly athletic, beautiful. However, put them in outdoor clothes and stand them next to a non dancer of a similar height I'm pretty sure they would look tiny and in my view 'slight' as they are fine boned.

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Kate_N I will PM you.

 

Well I didn't talk to the young lady on Tuesday to find out whether she was in the Corps or a young soloist but as she may be working more with us in January I can find out. I say this as I'm sure Principals of some years do have a very refined honed look.

However having seen both Marienela and Alina close up they were definitely slighter build than this young lady.

 

I was just wondering whether in American Companies they employ a wider range of dancers....in look that is?

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I was just wondering whether in American Companies they employ a wider range of dancers....in look that is?

 

The Mark Morris Group used to have dancers with a range of body types. I remember someone calling his company 'democratic.' But the last time I saw them the body range was more limited.  

 

This isn't something we can make generalisations about, it seems to me ...

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Wouldn’t it be interesting if companies took on fabulous young dancers then choreographed or modified their rep for those dancers, rather than limiting themselves by selecting and training only very specific types of dancers to fit their pre-existing rep? 

 

 

I think there is a move towards this, especially with more contemporary rep entering even the most classical companies. However, if they did this at the expense of the classical rep, classical ballet would disappear for ever. I for one think there is a place for contemporary and ballet, the dancers are different, just as good as each other but different. You have to know where you fit - not an easy task. I view it in a similar way to academics, people can be very clever but lean more towards the sciences or the humanities, a science minded brain will not excel in the humanities and vice versa both equally clever, different brain.

 

Definitely agree that I would not want classical rep to disappear forever! Christmas wouldn’t be the same without The Nutcracker! I just meant that it would be refreshing if occasionally companies recruited dancers just because they were fresh and amazing, even if that meant adapting some rep to suit the dancer, rather than recruiting a less exciting dancer just because she ‘fits the mould’. To go back to the Carlos quote, is it really a challenge ‘to find really talented girls’, or is the challenge finding talented women that are a perfect fit to current rep? After all, body shapes and sizes have evolved over the last 50 years, both within and outside of dance. 

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