glowlight

Congratulations LB.

I have no experience of RBS, but I have noticed some teachers feel it necessary to knock the confidence out of students, to break them down. Certainly you don't want students who are so cocky you can't teach them, but if you knock so much that they really don't realise how good they are, perhaps this is why the RBS girls are lacking in confidence.

In my dd's year at Northern Ballet School - on classical strand there were 3 German, 1 Canadian, 2 English and 3/4 Japanese girls. Ballet training is very international. I think the main reason more British students don't go overseas is because of the good possibility of getting funded training in the UK (although I believe you could be eligible for funding if you went to a school in another EU country. I think the German girls on my dd's course were on Dada's)

I echo Aileen's comments. It is about the journey, and whether or not your dd ends up being a dancer in the long run, the experiences she is having now will help her in what ever future she is destined for. And they should be wonderful experiences to look back on when she is older.

I agree that it is confusing. My understanding is that both grew up separately and have each used their name for many years. When Northern Ballet (Company) was called Northern Ballet Theatre I think the situation was less confusing. As to where Northern Ballet School graduates go - They have had graduates go into Northern Ballet and BRB, but more often they will go into smaller companies overseas. Northern Ballet School has a very strong jazz programme which runs alongside the ballet strand, and the classical students also benefit from this jazz training which results in many of them, like my dd, switching tack and getting jazz or musical theatre jobs. They have a very high graduate employment rate, but I would say that the majority of this is not in classical ballet.

Just to point out that Northern Ballet School is completely unconnected to Northern Ballet (Company) and makes no claims of being a feeder school for the company. Its an accident of history and location that the two have ended up with similar names.

We should also remember that the global market for dancers works both ways. There are many UK trained dancers in foreign companies and this is often the best/only way a young dancer can get started.

On a more positive note - there are more options for sixth form (eg ENBS, Central, RSAMD, not to mention the many schools which offer a wider curriculum) and not everyone who goes to vocational school at 11 continues on the ballet route at 16 - some out of choice and some because the option isn't open to them for one reason or another. There does tend to be a general reshuffling at 16 and it's where you end up for this stage of your training that really matters. With good local training, determination, talent and luck (!) it can be done.

Another thing to be aware of (going back to the original post) is that regardless of nationality or where you train, very few people who start training as ballet dancers actually become ballet dancers. In fact we may find that the more places there are for talented youngsters to train (eg more funded places at vocational schools, associate schemes and CAT schemes), the smaller the proportion who will be successful, because whilst lots is being invested in training these dancers, Arts cuts in this country and other countries mean that there are fewer jobs for them to go to.

Actually it wasn't with regard to Japanese girls that the comment about eating disorders arose. My dd has many Japanese friends and I don't think any of them have had eating disorders - they just seemed to be naturally petite. The comment arose after an audition in Italy where she was quite shocked by how unnaturally skinny some of the other European girls were. I have no idea what nationality these girls were, but she was basically suggesting that if she or one of her friends had been that skinny, her school would have been watching their diet and possibly stopped them from taking class until they put on weight. I think that there are probably fewer cases of eating disorders amongst dancers than you might expect given that ballet brings together two things which are potential triggers: a highly competitive environment which attracts high achievers and the need to be a particular body shape in order to succeed. I think this is in part because many ballet teachers in the UK are very sensitive to the danger and watchful for signs. So are dancing friends. It's possible that an eating disorder is more likely to be picked up early in a dancing child than in say a highly academic child who can hide his or her changing body under layers of baggy clothes.

One area in which british dancers are at a disadvantage compared with their foreign peers is that we expect them to be able to grow up as balanced individuals as well as dancers. Most of us still think its important that our dancing teens still get the best academic education they can. We want them to have friends, some kind of social life, and to be happy. If we send them to vocational school we struggle with the loss of control over their lives, because this is so alien to our culture. In many other cultures training is much more intensive from a younger age to the exclusion of almost everything else, and once a child is in training the parent has very little control. Spanner used Polunin as an example of this. I saw this very much in the Japanese students that my dd trained with. They had already given up so much to get to where they were. My dd also observed at auditions that many British girls are larger than their foreign counterparts. The Japanese have an advantage here in that they are naturally smaller and daintier which is aesthetically pleasing in a ballet dancer. Her suggestion was that in other countries schools are less careful than English schools about avoiding eating disorders. Personally I think we have the balance right, because I think its more important to be a balanced human being, but I do think that this is one of the reason why there aren't as many top British Ballet Dancers as we might like.

I remember that realisation from my dd when she was about 12: 'Mrs X (School Teacher) says if you work hard enough you can have anything you want... but its not true is it?' She was right.

Apart from the frustration of the additional cost I wouldn't see doing ISTD Intermediate as a problem, more a means to an end. My dd did ISTD Intermediate when she started at NBS, even though she had done her RAD Intermediate several years before. I think the school encouraged them to do it to open the door for ISTD teaching qualifications if they wanted to go down the teaching route. My understanding was that the syllabus was sufficiently different that she enjoyed learning it, and I think they learned the syllabus and took the exam within a couple of months. Hopefully your dd will be able to get the ISTD intermediate under her belt very quickly, perhaps doing the classes alongside Advanced classes.

Perhaps it is worth phoning ENBS to tell them the situation ahead of the audition, and maybe ask their advice on how it should be approached. PS. I'm assuming that it is a physio who has given the advice - if not then get her to a dance/sports physio asap to see if there is more that can be done.

According to this Department of Education site, the scheme used to be called the 'Music and Ballet Scheme' but was changed to 'Music and Dance Scheme' in 2002 http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/toolsandinitiatives/b0068711/mds/history Which suggests that in 2002, someone thought it should cover more than just ballet. But that was a long time ago and things change.

With regard to vocational colleges When my dd went to Northern Ballet School medical insurance was not mandatory - however there was an expectation that if you needed to see a physio you would do so. Certainly the school wouldn't cover it. My dd had cover through my occupational scheme. Dada's do not cover the cost of medical insurance. In fact the Dada itself only covers fees, and goes straight to the college. Those on low incomes who are awarded a Dada can apply for support with living expenses. I believe that the amount you get depends on income. I suppose in this case it would be up to you to decide whether you put some of this amount towards medical insurance, or whether to pay for private physio appointments, or rely on the NHS.

Like you Spanner, I took the approach that my dd wouldn't audition for schools which we couldn't afford for her to go to if the chance of funding was minimal. Like you I felt that the experience of having to turn down a place would be very upsetting and disruptive. Who knows whether things would have turned out differently had I made a different decision, but that felt like the right thing to do at the time, and I don't regret it. If you have a set up that is working reasonably well for you now, there is a lot to be said for sticking with it, as a move won't necessarily be for the best (and I don't mean just from the dancing perspective - you have to consider the whole person). As parents we often worry that we aren't doing the best we possibly can for our children, but in reality we can only do what we can reasonably do within the means that we have. We all have constraints, be they time, money, geography, health etc. But it sounds to me as if you are doing the best for your dd and are growing a happy rounded individual, who will hopefully come out with good academic qualifications, good social skills, and with a bit of luck a place at vocational school at 16!

Famcandance - sometimes when you think all the doors have closed, a new opportunity opens up unexpectedly. You just have to make sure you are ready for it when it does. Hope this will be the case for you and your dd.

Sorry to hear about your bad news Bankrupt Mum - wishing your dd all the best with her continued dance training.

You're not inadequate - its just some of us have been playing this game for a very long time

I think that the only way you can treat dance training without loosing your parental sanity is to remember that it is about the journey, not the destination. Really very, very few people who start on this road become ballet dancers, but those who don't seem to get a great deal out of the experiences, which gives them strengths whatever they end up doing in the future. And I think it does no harm for children to learn that life isn't fair. We all know its not. But those who succeed in whatever they do in life have to learn to get past that and do the best that they can. (Edited for typo)

Whilst it can be expensive to do lots of auditions, I think its a good idea to do as many as you can reasonably afford, as every audition is good experience and practice for future auditions. If you are lucky enough to be in the position of having to make a choice between offers on different schemes, audition day will have given you a good insight as to whether you might enjoy the program.

I'm sure you won't be the only one with other children there. You could always walk the other children up to the West Yorkshire Playhouse if you need to get out during the audition. They have a cafe there too.

I don't think that there is much correlation between ability in ballet and ability in tap. Some ballet dancers make fantastic tappers (look at Wayne Sleep) whilst others find tap really difficult. My dd certainly did. However ballet does seem to form an excellent foundation for modern, contemporary and jazz. My opinion is that you can tell a jazz dancer who was classicaly trained in that the lines are cleaner and technique crisper but that is my personal opinion only.

Congratulations Little Ballerina and Kiwimum's dd. So happy for you.