"Poor Quality" degrees

[meadowblythe]

 

As the mother of children with degrees in Stage Management, Modern Ballet and Professional Trumpet I'm interested to see how the government's new policy regarding degrees.  According to the BBC website access will be limited to degrees that do not good have good outcomes for students.

 

"courses that do not have "good outcomes" for students would include those that have high drop-out rates or have a low proportion of students going on to professional jobs. It will also look at potential earnings when deciding if a degree offers enough value."

 

I'm pretty sure of none of my children's degree courses, all from leading Conservatoires, would be considered to have good outcomes by this criteria.  I think this raises questions of the value that is placed on the creative arts, and also how the outcomes of any degree are assessed.

 

[Peony]

I’m not sure it is about not valuing the arts but re-evaluating what a degree is actually about and what the outcome should be. I do think there needs to be some reevaluation because there has been a rapid expansion in degree programmes and some of it is about making money for the institution. And it’s not just about arts, the government are also looking to bring in apprenticeships for medicine etc rather than taught degrees. I do think that not every subject needs to Be a taught degree with the costs involved and if a paid apprenticeship could be offered that’s a good thing. But also some subjects do require prolonged academic study in an educational institution. I don’t know enough about your children’s degrees to

say which would be best but personally I’d put medicine in the latter category! 

[Ondine]

I have some sympathy with Maxine's point of view.  😏

 

 

[Colman]

@ondine, it's the obvious response. The whole thing smacks of "Arts are for rich people, peons!" and a view that education should be entirely vocational unless you're rich. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

This has been an ongoing, very lively and interesting discussion over the last few years for those who work in higher education, and the HE reforms due to be launched today is probably the final bit of a review that started back in 2018. It’s a very complicated (and dividing) discussion that is focused on key measures: mostly continuation rates and employment prospects. For those who are interested in this, there are a number of good articles on wonkhe.com and more information if you search for “Augar review”.

 

For those interested in stats, the HESA website is a minefield of data:

 

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/31-05-2023/sb266-higher-education-graduate-outcomes-statistics
 

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/graduates/releases

Edited July 17, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[trog]

The government is, on one hand, keen to stop "cancel culture" and on the other they are planning to limit what people can study.❓

[postie]

Last stat i saw on this said 1/3 of graduates from the last x years are working in non-grad jobs.

 

Certainly the case in my part of London to say it's difficult to imagine any trade skill that isn't dominated by East Europeans - self-employed but particulary on building projects. Seems to suggest a very large imbalance between jobs society needs and jobs politically-led policies have created. Paging Tony Blair (again!) ...

 

eta: I see today visa rules are being further relaxed on a range of building skills:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12306971/Ministers-relax-visa-rules-foreign-bricklayers-roofers-carpenters-plasterers-Home-Office-deems-shortage-construction-workers.html

Edited July 17, 2023 by postie

[Birdy]

This sounds a lot like the arguments happening in the United States, where there is a big push for science and math degrees, while liberal arts and humanities degrees are devalued. I find it to be really short-sighted. Obviously engineers and doctors may get well-paying jobs in their chosen fields directly out of school, but there is plenty of evidence that people with liberal arts degrees earn a very good wage ten years post-grad. If you only consider whether someone works in the field of their degree, you discount the value of everything else an education brings, like critical-thinking, teamwork and creative problem solving.

[Colman]

Well, yes, it requires a system designed to impoverish graduates with “loans” and completely disregard that most of the benefits of education accrue to society at large rather than the individual for the framing to make any sense at all. 

[Ondine]

32 minutes ago, Colman said:

Well, yes, it requires a system designed to impoverish graduates with “loans” and completely disregard that most of the benefits of education accrue to society at large rather than the individual for the framing to make any sense at all. 

 

I seem unable to LIKE this as the LIKE button is not appearing on your posts for me!

 

However, I am punching the air in total agreement.

 

 

 

[Colman]

5 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I seem unable to LIKE this as the LIKE button is not appearing on your posts for me

My account is rather restricted. I don’t see likes either and can’t post or comment in most areas of the board.

[SheilaC]

The government's latest policy is no surprise, although deeply worrying.

In general, their view of what education should be about has, for several years, been narrowly focused on skills hence their emphasis on STEM degrees, rather than broader, more humanistic, degrees which aim to teach students how to think and to learn how to learn. Skills learned on science maths and computing degrees are valuable but those specific skills can be out of date in a few months.

The 'soft' skills learned in the arts can be valuable for life and transferable across many occupations.

So far as degrees in dance, music, drama and other creative arts are concerned they may not typically produce a 'graduate' job or high earnings soon after graduation, but they develop the personal skills that are crucial to the economy. The government wants more enterprise but most STEM courses, with their narrow focus on technical skills and learning the right way to do things counteract, rather than are conducive to, enterprise since that requires creativity and the ability to spot unlikely connections. The creative arts degrees foster communication skills, the ability to work constructively ln a team yet also to work independently in a focused way.

As a university careers adviser for many years I researched the destinations and opportunities for students, specialising in the arts and social sciences and, before retirement, contacted every university that taught degrees in dance for information on what their graduates had gone on to achieve over the years. True, few went on immediately to a high salary, but many had satisfying portfolio careers, combining a range of inter-related opportunities in the arts where they continued to develop their skills and contacts. This may be less possible in the current anti-arts climate. But the qualities and communication skills gained open up a lot of broader opportunities

[Pups_mum]

Agree this is just another part of the assault on the arts and other "non core" subjects by current goverment educational policy. Don't get me started on he damage that the EBacc is doing to the same fields im secondary schools, whilst purporting to promote a broad based education. 🙄

Both my husband and I work in STEM fields so I am absolutely in favour of improving teaching and opportunities in those subjects - but it shouldn't be at the cost of losing other subjects. Not every individual has the same interests and abilities and you just can't squash everyone into the same box. For the well being of both individuals and wider society there must be a range of options. If we've  reached point where education is seen only as a means to get a job and the value of a degree is judged only on the earning potential it generates then the country really is doomed.

[balletbean]

1 hour ago, SheilaC said:

The government's latest policy is no surprise, although deeply worrying.

In general, their view of what education should be about has, for several years, been narrowly focused on skills hence their emphasis on STEM degrees, rather than broader, more humanistic, degrees which aim to teach students how to think and to learn how to learn. Skills learned on science maths and computing degrees are valuable but those specific skills can be out of date in a few months.

The 'soft' skills learned in the arts can be valuable for life and transferable across many occupations.

So far as degrees in dance, music, drama and other creative arts are concerned they may not typically produce a 'graduate' job or high earnings soon after graduation, but they develop the personal skills that are crucial to the economy. The government wants more enterprise but most STEM courses, with their narrow focus on technical skills and learning the right way to do things counteract, rather than are conducive to, enterprise since that requires creativity and the ability to spot unlikely connections. The creative arts degrees foster communication skills, the ability to work constructively ln a team yet also to work independently in a focused way.

As a university careers adviser for many years I researched the destinations and opportunities for students, specialising in the arts and social sciences and, before retirement, contacted every university that taught degrees in dance for information on what their graduates had gone on to achieve over the years. True, few went on immediately to a high salary, but many had satisfying portfolio careers, combining a range of inter-related opportunities in the arts where they continued to develop their skills and contacts. This may be less possible in the current anti-arts climate. But the qualities and communication skills gained open up a lot of broader opportunities

So eloquently put. 
I know of so many cases where graduates are not employed within the field of their degree. In many cases it is a stepping stone of personal development. A friend is a Fine Art graduate but now holds the highest (non political) role within local government. Ask her how that happened she laughs and responds with ‘no idea’. 
I do wish ‘career’ advisors were not so blinkered with their advice.  
 

ps. I should have added that many of these ‘advisors’ seem to forget their own advice when enjoying watching live theatre/ballet/TV/galleries/. The list is endless. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by balletbean

[Pas de Quatre]

It can be very interesting watching the Celebrity edition of University Challenge at Christmas, to see what each of the candidates studied, often quite different from their subsequent career. However I do think the old fashioned ways of training, with sandwich courses and apprenticeships served the students better.

[Ondine]

I posted this on another thread.

 

No doubt Alfie doesn't consider his qualifications 'poor quality'. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[meadowblythe]

There's a quote from the Dead Poet's Society I put in a display outside our library door.  

 

“Medicine, law, business, engineering, these are all noble pursuits, and
necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for.” 

[Pas de Quatre]

Someone once said "Man does not live by bread alone."