Stretching. How much is enough?

[BalletBoyMumma]

Hi, 

 

Just wanting to pick the brains of those more in the know. Say, for example, you do about 20hrs of ballet a week, broken up into various times, what is the minimum amount of stretching that should be done? I realise that everyone is different and some will require lots, or not so much, but generally speaking, what would be recommended from a teaching/young dancer’s point of view? Say, the minimum requirement to even just maintain some sort of flexibility and prevent from stiffening up/becoming inflexible? 
 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

3 hours ago, BalletBoyMumma said:

Hi, 

 

Just wanting to pick the brains of those more in the know. Say, for example, you do about 20hrs of ballet a week, broken up into various times, what is the minimum amount of stretching that should be done? I realise that everyone is different and some will require lots, or not so much, but generally speaking, what would be recommended from a teaching/young dancer’s point of view? Say, the minimum requirement to even just maintain some sort of flexibility and prevent from stiffening up/becoming inflexible? 
 

I think you will receive lots of different  answers to this query as it would depend on a whole variety of factors. It would depend on age, what your DC does, any targeted areas that need more work, etc, etc. 20 hours seems quite a lot of ballet (to me, but that’s only because my DC only dances in the weekends) especially if the DC isn’t in full time vocational school (and if DC is, they’re probably closely guided and monitored on the stretching and conditioning they need). When my DC started one of the more well known associates scheme in Year 7, they were given this sheet of conditioning exercises that they were told should not take longer than 20 mins. For my DC, who unfortunately does not find stretching fun (DC is very active and restless and likes to be doing all sorts of stuff so the idea of just being in one place, despite trying to listen to music etc, just bores them), trying to get that 20 minutes is already a chore and they’re meant to do this 6 times a week. As DC’s teacher and physio got to know them, DC was also given guidance on which exercises to focus on and for how long. For example my DC isn’t naturally flexible but has a very strong core and just a strong sturdy physique overall. Never had any injuries, never experiences any pains and niggles. Add to this extreme growth spurt within a year and they had been advised to focus their time on stretching rather than conditioning/strength work (DC was told to do 80/20, stretching/conditioning), for example. 
 

I think it’s about being guided by those who know your DC well and what your DC is willing to do without killing the joy of the whole thing. I know some DCs who can stretch for hours, all day, every day and they actually enjoy it. Then there are those, like my DC, who’d find half an hour of half-hearted stretching already tortuous.

[Jan McNulty]

I've added the tag "stretching" to the top of the thread.  If you click on it loads of previous threads come up.  You may find some of them useful.

[taxi4ballet]

This is something that needs to be discussed with the young person's dance teacher, because it will depend entirely on their age, physique and level of training.

[BalletBoyMumma]

Thank you @Neverdancedjustamum

I agree, it’s a very tough question to answer. That 80/20 ratio is really helpful - that must make things so much clearer.  
We seem to have the opposite (don’t stretch so much while growing, which I find confusing). I also found the information was very clear in associate scheme (JA) so I was intrigued to see what is suggested in various settings. 

 

Yes it is a lot of training (I can’t indicate who with or where unfortunately) but the small amount of stretching doesn’t seem to be nearly enough for my DC so trying to figure a way around this. DC has very little time around the busy day-to-day schedule to add this in. Plus it’s simply not allowed of an evening. 
 

There have been concerns raised, mostly physical/body type which may prevent my DC continuing much longer, but much of it is related to lack of flexibility (in various areas), my DC is very capable of being flexible but it doesn’t seem to be happening while in the programme, in fact they often rapidly lose flexibility in areas like back, ankles, hips (turnout) during the term. Which is then regained on long weekends or holidays at home where there is time for attention on those areas. Wondering if this is normal or maybe we we just need to move to a more tailored approach for DC (due to needing more) rather than continue on a programme. I hope that makes some sort of sense. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by BalletBoyMumma

[Neverdancedjustamum]

28 minutes ago, BalletBoyMumma said:

Thank you @Neverdancedjustamum

I agree, it’s a very tough question to answer. That 80/20 ratio is really helpful - that must make things so much clearer.  
We seem to have the opposite (don’t stretch so much while growing, which I find confusing). I also found the information was very clear in associate scheme (JA) so I was intrigued to see what is suggested in various settings. 

 

Yes it is a lot of training (I can’t indicate who with or where unfortunately) but the small amount of stretching doesn’t seem to be nearly enough for my DC so trying to figure a way around this. DC has very little time around the busy day-to-day schedule to add this in. Plus it’s simply not allowed of an evening. 
 

There have been concerns raised, mostly physical/body type which may prevent my DC continuing much longer, but much of it is related to lack of flexibility (in various areas), my DC is very capable of being flexible but it doesn’t seem to be happening while in the programme, in fact they often rapidly lose flexibility in areas like back, ankles, hips (turnout) during the term. Which is then regained on long weekends or holidays at home where there is time for attention on those areas. Wondering if this is normal or maybe we we just need to move to a more tailored approach for DC (due to needing more) rather than continue on a programme. I hope that makes some sort of sense. 

I can totally understand. My DC was reasonably flexible as a child, did gymnastics for about 2 years. Artistic (I think this is the one with apparatus?), not rhythmic (from which many transition to ballet), so was always more about strength than flexibility and agility. That should have given me a clue then! DC then had multiple significant growth spurts (at one point over 10cm in a year) and their back just got sturdier and stiffer, affecting hips too. Perfect for physical sports but not for ballet, according to the physio. Unfortunately for DC, these are the very things that are immediately visible in terms of the aesthetic of the arabesque line for example. I still don’t know if DC will regain the required flexibility in those areas, especially with DC’s (non)love for stretching but we have recently tried gyrotonics. It’s very early days so I won’t be able to tell if it makes a difference. DC definitely enjoys it more than solo stretching. It is a shame that lack of flexibility is immediately apparent in ballet, as often this overshadows their other strengths. My DC’s strengths are turns and jumps but these appear to be less appreciated than a stunning arabesque line I find. I think the best thing is to speak to your DC’s teacher and a physio who specialises in dancers. They can help guide and are qualified to do so. In terms of physios, I would suggest doing research and not immediately going to the ones usually posted on social media. Whilst they are no doubt very good, I find that the fees they usually charge can be limiting if you want regular sessions. Dig deeper and you will find more affordable but just as qualified ones (who often work with company dancers and vocational school students).

[taxi4ballet]

There is a school of thought which says that inappropriate stretching does more harm than good, and I'm inclined to agree with that. 

[Swanwings]

18 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

There is a school of thought which says that inappropriate stretching does more harm than good, and I'm inclined to agree with that. 

This is absolutely true. Inappropriate stretching can be detrimental to young bodies, usually this means overstretching especially round the hip areas. Theres lots of info on this and teachers/ballet physios should be able to advise. I speak as a ballet teacher.

 

I would also add that teenage bodies are so troublesome when they belong to dancers! Bodies are growing and through puberty, they are all over the place, stiffening up in place, one leg longer than the other, it seems like no improvements are being made. I had a similar situation with my DD, but she has almost finished growng now and is well through the worst and everything is a lot better. Her flexibility is improving, balance has improved and strength is steadily building.  From seeing this in her I would say, be patient, keep going with the stretching and technique but dont be disheartened if progress is slow. Of course this may not affect all young dancers, some might grow more 'evenly', but my dd plateaued for a time and now has really been able to improve all those things.

[Anna C]

Great advice from everyone.  As mum of an adult daughter who has the opposite problem (hypermobility), one thing we learned from the late, great Dance Physio Shirley Hancock is that stretches are like prescription medication - what works for one young dancer can be extremely bad for another.  Also, that flexibility should be balanced with strengthening exercises, because there’s no point having flat turnout without the strength to maintain it while actually dancing.
 

In my opinion, stretches & exercises should be tailored to the individual, and adjusted as necessary, especially when a child/teenager is growing.  Flexibility and strength both go up and down like a yo-yo during puberty, so try not to worry too much.   We were also advised never to stretch cold muscles, so to do a full barre session first before stretching anything.  
 

As others have said, stretches and body conditioning exercises should be prescribed by the child’s teacher or Physio.  

[BalletBoyMumma]

Thank you everyone. This is all super helpful. 
DC is strong but the strength/flexibility just isn’t balancing well at the moment, instead the lack of stretching combined with lots of dancing/training is resulting in tightness, and general joint stiffness, particularly in the back and ankles. My older DC had similar issues around this age (not at vocational school) and even just adding a weekly PBT class and Pre-pointe/pointe class helped immensely with both of those areas. Younger DC is away so can’t try these things unfortunately (and I’m not sure the school will allow DC to try pre-pointe/pointe classes 🫣). 

It’s a bit complicated regarding talking to teachers/physio but I have asked them for help (we have been advised that next academic year this will happen) but I will definitely look for some more tailored guidance in the mean time from a dance physio (if I can find one). 
 

That might need to be my next question 😅 Where does one find a dance specific physiotherapist? We have plenty of sports physios nearby but none who specialise in dance. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by BalletBoyMumma

[BalletBoyMumma]

2 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I can totally understand. My DC was reasonably flexible as a child, did gymnastics for about 2 years. Artistic (I think this is the one with apparatus?), not rhythmic (from which many transition to ballet), so was always more about strength than flexibility and agility. That should have given me a clue then! DC then had multiple significant growth spurts (at one point over 10cm in a year) and their back just got sturdier and stiffer, affecting hips too. Perfect for physical sports but not for ballet, according to the physio. Unfortunately for DC, these are the very things that are immediately visible in terms of the aesthetic of the arabesque line for example. I still don’t know if DC will regain the required flexibility in those areas, especially with DC’s (non)love for stretching but we have recently tried gyrotonics. It’s very early days so I won’t be able to tell if it makes a difference. DC definitely enjoys it more than solo stretching. It is a shame that lack of flexibility is immediately apparent in ballet, as often this overshadows their other strengths. My DC’s strengths are turns and jumps but these appear to be less appreciated than a stunning arabesque line I find. I think the best thing is to speak to your DC’s teacher and a physio who specialises in dancers. They can help guide and are qualified to do so. In terms of physios, I would suggest doing research and not immediately going to the ones usually posted on social media. Whilst they are no doubt very good, I find that the fees they usually charge can be limiting if you want regular sessions. Dig deeper and you will find more affordable but just as qualified ones (who often work with company dancers and vocational school students).

Sounds very similar.
I do often think life would be a lot easier if DC didn’t love ballet so much (or want to pursue it so desperately), but went for a sport instead. 😅 But then that would probably bring its own issues. 

 

Thank you. 🙏 I will do some thorough research (and keep asking around). I agree on the high fees - definitely more benefit from a regular check in than a one off session. 

[Millicent]

4 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

There is a school of thought which says that inappropriate stretching does more harm than good, and I'm inclined to agree with that. 

I also agree with this and sitting in stretches for a long time or overstretching joints can lead to significant injury. It's interesting that Hannah Martin who came from a rhythmic gymnastic background and is now at BRB often posts on Instagram about how stretches she did when younger have caused her injury/damage and she now avoids a lot of the stretches she was originally taught to do because they are damaging in the long term.

 

It is sad that dancers often want to copy extreme stretches they have seen on social media and by doing so cause often long term damage. I am constantly cringing at some of the extreme stretching I see backstage or before auditions. Especially the one where dancers stand on the knuckles of their toes - it's extremely damaging and dangerous but I have seen it so much recently, even to the extent that the dancer is in a lot of pain but their teacher or parents makes them carry on. 

 

I echo what others have said and think that if flexibility is an issue you would be best to see a specialist dance physio. Also, any moving non-static stretches can be beneficial in general, like a gentle yoga flow. I can't see how that could be anything other than beneficial for a dancer. A proper cool down after exercise is also important in reducing stiffness if that is an issue.

[Kerfuffle]

I can recommend an excellent ballet physio, if you like DM me. He also runs conditioning courses during the holidays online. 

[drdance]

20+ hours a week sounds like an awful lot in my opinion. Is this all ballet? How old is your DC? (Feel free to PM me if needed). 
 

Stretching isn’t the only way to improve flexibility and joint mobility. Within the realm of “stretching” there are lots of different approaches; passive vs active, dynamic vs static, end-range focus, ballistic, PNF, dance-specific, etc etc. 

 

As others have suggested, it’s better to get an individualised programme. During the adolescent growth spurt flexibility decreases anyway so that’s a consideration, plus there’s the whole stress and tension element too - psychological or physiological stress can cause neural tension leading to what looks like poor flexibility. Once the person relaxes or the source of tension is removed, the movement becomes freer and flexibility appears improved. Lisa Howell has written / produced a fair bit of content on neural tension. 

[Millicent]

That's interesting about neural tension. One of the things my yoga teacher says is that if you're finding a yoga pose difficult you need to breathe more deeply and relax into it more. It's surprising how much deep breathing helps. This is also one of the things my DD finds most difficult as she is very bad at holding her breath when she dances! 

[taxi4ballet]

With the school holidays coming up fairly soon, I wonder whether a visit to an osteopath might be worthwhile, just to make sure there's nothing out of alignment in the neck, back or hip areas. 

 

It could just be a growth spurt - we were told that the bones grow quicker than the muscles and tendons, and you have to wait for them to catch up. Meanwhile, flexibility is reduced considerably. Another reason to avoid stretching I suppose. Leg bones also have a tendency to grow one leg at a time for some odd reason, so if that's the case, that will throw everything out of kilter.

[BalletBoyMumma]

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

With the school holidays coming up fairly soon, I wonder whether a visit to an osteopath might be worthwhile, just to make sure there's nothing out of alignment in the neck, back or hip areas. 

 

It could just be a growth spurt - we were told that the bones grow quicker than the muscles and tendons, and you have to wait for them to catch up. Meanwhile, flexibility is reduced considerably. Another reason to avoid stretching I suppose. Leg bones also have a tendency to grow one leg at a time for some odd reason, so if that's the case, that will throw everything out of kilter.

Good point. I will add that to the plan. He’s otherwise growing well but might be worth checking more closely on those joints. Thank you. 

[BalletBoyMumma]

5 hours ago, drdance said:

20+ hours a week sounds like an awful lot in my opinion. Is this all ballet? How old is your DC? (Feel free to PM me if needed). 
 

Stretching isn’t the only way to improve flexibility and joint mobility. Within the realm of “stretching” there are lots of different approaches; passive vs active, dynamic vs static, end-range focus, ballistic, PNF, dance-specific, etc etc. 

 

As others have suggested, it’s better to get an individualised programme. During the adolescent growth spurt flexibility decreases anyway so that’s a consideration, plus there’s the whole stress and tension element too - psychological or physiological stress can cause neural tension leading to what looks like poor flexibility. Once the person relaxes or the source of tension is removed, the movement becomes freer and flexibility appears improved. Lisa Howell has written / produced a fair bit of content on neural tension. 

Thank you drdance - I’ve sent you a message with a bit more info.  

[Sally-Anne]

On 13/06/2023 at 14:28, Anna C said:

Great advice from everyone.  As mum of an adult daughter who has the opposite problem (hypermobility), one thing we learned from the late, great Dance Physio Shirley Hancock is that stretches are like prescription medication - what works for one young dancer can be extremely bad for another.  Also, that flexibility should be balanced with strengthening exercises, because there’s no point having flat turnout without the strength to maintain it while actually dancing.
 

In my opinion, stretches & exercises should be tailored to the individual, and adjusted as necessary, especially when a child/teenager is growing.  Flexibility and strength both go up and down like a yo-yo during puberty, so try not to worry too much.   We were also advised never to stretch cold muscles, so to do a full barre session first before stretching anything.  
 

As others have said, stretches and body conditioning exercises should be prescribed by the child’s teacher or Physio.  

RIP Shirley, what a fountain of knowledge she was for all lucky enough to encounter her

 

[Beezie]

Interesting thread.  I share a lot of the sentiment:

 

We’re also finding moderate flexibility in ballet if no longer enough.  (I think it used to be.)  Back flexibility and past-90 leg extensions are also the trouble point.

 

DD loves ballet but hates flexibility training.  She looks at the hyper mobile girls in class and says she knows she’ll never get there.  Perhaps she is wise, and this is just self-selection.  She has so much artistry and grace that it makes me sad to hear this….but there are also other areas where she can nurture these talents.
 

We also have the awkward puberty phase going on.  She has some areas where she is a late bloomer, so holding out hope.  But the back flexibility is one I just don’t see changing much.  
 

With all of the above, we’ve slowed down on ballet vs doubled-down….though still trying to maintain just enough training that the decision isn’t irreversible.
 

I used to wish we were going through this experience 30+ years ago where extreme flexibility wasn’t such a differentiator.  I love seeing old ballet clips; but the ‘greats’ of past eras were quite different, stylistically.  All things evolve, I guess.