Tips on multiple pirouettes?

[PrincessandtheFrog]

Can anyone share any tips on how to turn more than once in a pirouette. My teachers get me to be on a high releve with a snatch but I can't do more than one. If I do, then I can't close it properly back into position, I just fall out. Thank you for reading this and for any suggestions. ????

[Lifeafterballet]

Dd says you don't releve into a pirouette you do a strong rise, transferring weight onto the supporting leg. And snatching can cause you to throw your weight back so putting you off balance. This is probably why you are only managing singles.

[swanprincess]

Cotes du Rhone, do you mind if I ask what school your dd goes to? The reason I ask is because my teacher was adamant that pirouettes should be from a releve not rise, so I am interested to see what the vocational schools teach regarding releve vs rise

[drdance]

I would be keen to know too Cotes du rhone! (that reminds me - it's wine o'clock!)

 

My advice is to practise balancing in pirouette position, from a releve. The longer you can hold this, then theoretically you will have more success with your turns. A strong core is essential for pirouettes, as is excellent balance and proprioception. You need to be able to make lots of adjustments to your torso while in pirouette position so that your centre of gravity remains over your toes. Also, when you turn make sure that your arms stay in the same position as much as possible. The best turners I have seen are those who can keep their whole body still - including their arms, legs, torso (back, shoulders, core, hips). The only thing that moves is their head. The first part of the turn (moving from plie/preparation into pirouette position) gets you moving round into a single or maybe a double if you're lucky, but it is the action of the head that creates the impetus for the following multiple turns. But you have to be careful that the strong 'whip' action of your head is relaxed, so that it does not cause the rest of your torso to move, otherwise you'll knock yourself off balance. That's why the ability to make constant corrections to your balance is key. 

[Dance*is*life]

Are you talking about demi-pointe or full pointe?  There is a difference between doing pirouettes on pointe and on demi-pointe.  I teach pirouettes on pointe with more of a releve action tham on demi-pointe.  However, in either case, if you want to do more than one, you need to turn quicker, coordinating your head and arms with the push off action from the preparation.  Landing is always a problem.  You need to pull up and slightly slow down as you get to the end of the turn.  Try closing with a very slight "spring" into 5th - it may help. 

[Lifeafterballet]

Being a novice ballet mum Dd has just explained to me the difference between a releve, bringing the foot underneath her, and a strong rise, transferring the weight onto the supporting leg. ????On pointe you have to releve into a pirouette, but on Demi pointe to avoid snatching, possibly throwing yourself off balance, and to do multiple pirouettes a strong rise into it is more effective.

I wouldn't usually comment on a technical question but I thought we might be helpful ! Lol ! Oops ! Think I need to stick to the other threads ????

[Lifeafterballet]

now I've posed it twice ! Lol ! Need more wine ????

Edited February 7, 2015 by cotes du rhone !

[PrincessandtheFrog]

Are you talking about demi-pointe or full pointe?  There is a difference between doing pirouettes on pointe and on demi-pointe.  I teach pirouettes on pointe with more of a releve action tham on demi-pointe.  However, in either case, if you want to do more than one, you need to turn quicker, coordinating your head and arms with the push off action from the preparation.  Landing is always a problem.  You need to pull up and slightly slow down as you get to the end of the turn.  Try closing with a very slight "spring" into 5th - it may help.

 

I'm talking about Demi pointe. Thank u for all the tips everyone! I laughed at your comment cotes du rhone !

[PrincessandtheFrog]

Sorry, that reply was meant to be a multi quote thingymigiggy. Eventually I'll get the hang of it!

[ballet2shoes]

I have learnt to look up, because when it comes to the turning my head usually drops a little. But I'm in intermediate at the moment and we have to do multiple turns, and everyone else seems to know how to do them, but I can't, anyone have any ideas why?

[Pups_mum]

My DD used to struggle with pirrouettes too. I bought her a turnboard which seemed to help quite a bit as it improved her confidence, but there was still "something" getting in the way. However, she returned from a summer school this year able to confidently manage triples and more on both demi Pointe and pointe, saying that she had had a "lightbulb moment". It was something to do with which muscles she needed to engage in which order I think, but as a non dancer I didn't really take it in. When she gets home from school tonight I will ask her and report back as whatever it is has definitely made a difference.

[Primaballerina1]

Dd doesn't have a turnboard so she uses a wobble board instead (not a big one) and this really helps her get her weight in the right place and become more confident with spotting

[CeliB]

I dont know if this will be any help but my DS has always struggled with turns and recently had 2 major revelations. I realise hes a boy but since you are talking about demi pointe it may be relevant...

First he says he realises he was trying to get the upward rise and momentum into the pirouette using his leg (thigh) muscles rather than his feet. Now he uses his feet (I suppose this means calf rather than thigh?) he is less inclined to 'throw' himself upwards and thence off balance. Adiitionally his teacher recently taught grand pirouettes making the boys pirouette with arms continuously above their head rather than going out to the side at all. This meant that they couldnt use thier arms to assist turn them round- lo and behold DS found his balance (64 turns in one go, witht his standing foot barely moving position on the floor). So he realised that he had been using his arms too much and/or trying to compensate for the weight of his arms and this had been throwing his balance off. he plans now to practise with arms above his head until his core 'remebers' the correct body position, and hope this becomes hard wired.

[LinMM]

I'm having a one to one lesson on pirouettes(largely) in a couple of weeks and I'll see if I can glean anything new.

I can balance really well on Demi (preparation releve and just balance instead of turning etc but somehow for me this doesn't seem to translate over when turning and does seem to have something to do with too much force.....I just can't seem to relax enough and trust that one turn shouldn't throw one off balance!!

It's very tricky pirouetting and I think each person in the end has to find that rhythm for their own body. It's easier when a pirouette comes in the middle or at the end of an enchainement ( for me) but if it's a grade class and concentrating only on a pirouette exercise I rarely feel satisfied at the end of the exercise!!

[Pups_mum]

Right, I have asked DD what made the difference for her and she has tried to explain a few things to me, which I will endeavour to pass on, but apologies in advance if anything gets lost in translation as I don't really understand the terminology. She says that she was sort of trying to pull herself round utilising her leading arm, and she was moving with plenty of power but little control. By thinking about the movement of the following shoulder rather than "throwing" her arms round she has hugely improved control. Also, she is focussing on keeping her shoulders down as she releves up, so that everything moves to the core and keeps tight which she finds improves her balance, as previously her shoulders were sort of jumping up as she started to turn. Other things she suggests are don't stay down in preparation too long as that can put you off balance, make sure you don't let your weight drift backwards, and practise standing still in the pirouette position to develop balance and improve core strength. She feels she was worrying too much about having enough power to get round multiple times but now realises that its more about having the balance and control right.

Hope that makes some kind of sense!

[munchkin16]

Just tried those tips and they really work. I've had double pirouettes from fourth for a while now but they've always been a little haphazard and I've always thought I needed more power. I figured out the importance of engaging the back muscles a while ago but actually putting it into practice was more tricky. I just tried thinking hard about shoulders down as I went into the turn and it had a huge impact in both making it more controlled but also more speed! I love this board

[Chassé]

Some things I find help with my pirouettes (mine are still awful but they get slightly better when I focus on these things...)

 

• breathing out on the turn - I found this made real difference for me, I used to breathe in, but I noticed a big improvement with breathing out instead. I know different things work for different people so maybe have a play around with different breathing options and see what works for you
   
• having the weight more over the front foot in the preparation, rather than in the centre
   
• placement of the arms - make sure the first isn't too low, or too stretched out in front of you. Also slipping the hands together so they overlap slightly can help with creating a secure first position but I know some teachers don't like this. It is worth practising like this to get the feeling of the connection to use in a proper first position, as long as slipping the hands doesn't become a habit you can't break

 

Maybe these tips will help you - they helped me, just have a play around and see if they work for you 

[betterankles]

Don't worry about how you end before you begin - go for the turning part of it, and find out what works best for you - releve - rise - whatever..

Grand pirouette (hopping) every day in second with pirouette in second, then attitude, then pull in, finding front to start from for each releve. - that's how they used to be taught by pre Vaganova Russians.

Watch youtube videos of dancers with good turns and copy -

and If all else fails go to Cuba - they all turn without problem, taught from early days.....

[invisiblecircus]

From which position are you preparing?

 

I started ballet relatively late and always had problems with pirouettes, then one day, I had to do a pirouette exercise preparing from second and something clicked!

[LinMM]

Making sure the raised knee is really turned out also helps and the advice about the shoulders being firmly down and arms held in the back is good.

When younger I could do two pirouettes regularly ....but never got more than two...but since I've returned to ballet seem to be stuck on one! Leaving the head till the very last minute is supposed to work and does sometimes but not always perhaps because the head isn't quite in the right position?

[Dance*is*life]

Actually leaving the head behind too long before whipping it round, can throw you off balance. I have started teaching the head movement with an earlier whip round (if you get what I mean) and find that that really helps, especially for doubles as it's easier to do the second head movement in time. Pirouettes are all about co-ordination and control. Keep calm and focus!

Edited September 23, 2015 by Dance*is*life

[LinMM]

I'm beginning to think that "keeping calm" is the single most important factor in doing successful pirouettes!

[Dance*is*life]

It really is, LinMM - if I look at those students who are really good at pirouettes, it is so clear that it's because they are cool, calm and collected!  The moment there is strain in the head, shoulders or arms the pirouettes won't work.  It's why when you come back after a holiday and you are totally our of shape, the one thing that still seems to work is pirouettes because you're so relaxed!

[Michelle_Richer]

Here is a question on pirouettes used in PDD on demi-pointe. I have always accepted that I could never get more than a single turn when assisted by my partner when on demi pointe, mainly because of the additional friction caused by his sliding hands around my waist.

 

However one of the dancers at my rehearsal said she could get up to three turns whilst on demi-pointe when assisted by her partner. For me with no partner a double isn’t too much trouble, and on a good day a triple is possible. I have always put those wonderful multiple turn pirouettes in PDDs down to the low friction of being on full pointe. How much of this is down to my partner or me?

[DancingtoDance]

Remember to spot, and don't think of multiple pirouettes as 'turns' but as 'head spots/turns' (I can't remember the exact term, but something like head spots/turns) :-)

 

And of course, remember to use correct alignment! 

[drdance]

I've been working a lot on turns recently. While super secure technique, posture and balance are great starting points (no pun intended!), a relaxed, loose head action will make or break your turn. 

 

Pirouettes are purely mechanical. Once you're on releve, the only thing that should move is your head, therefore the only thing that can throw you off balance, or drive you into another turn is this movement of your head. Of course if your arms aren't held still, your lifted leg moves, your body isn't as still as a brick or you fail to get on balance in the first place then the pirouette isn't going to work regardless of the head. 

 

So my advice is twofold. Firstly, ensure you are getting on balance and that nothing is moving once you start turning (start with a releve into pirouette position and see if you can stay there, then try videoing yourself turning in slow motion and analyse if your arms are getting to 1st and staying there, or if your lifted leg moves, or if your body moves etc). Once you've got the rest of your body behaving, then look at your head action. Does your head lean to one or other side? Is your chin level (not lifted too high or down too low), does your head move freely, without needing your shoulders to move?

 

I love watching videos of multiple pirouettes. You'll always see the same thing. Nothing moves except the head. And a successful turner will slow their turns down and remain on balance the whole time. Wonderful!

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi drdance

I think there has been a bit of a misunderstanding. To put this in context, doing pirouettes on my own, singles or doubles are generally no problem, including which used to be a bit of a party piece for me, when the pirouette came to stop was to hold the releve and retire for a few seconds on balance. Also finishing doubles into arabesque en l’air, in other words not letting the gesturing foot touch the ground to stop. I also know what its like to hit the sweet spot where spotting, positioning and the rhythm of the music become one, beautiful.

 

However that is not the issue, its doing pirouettes in Pas de deux. It seems to me with the little added friction of a partner’s hands around my waist limits the power I can get into a pirouette and it inevitably stalls after the first turn or so, I guess I also have to mention my partner is not an experienced ballet dancer, however he does do quite well with other partnered movements in PDD bless him. Oh and remember this is all done on demi-pointe.

[taxi4ballet]

However that is not the issue, its doing pirouettes in Pas de deux. It seems to me with the little added friction of a partner’s hands around my waist limits the power I can get into a pirouette and it inevitably stalls after the first turn or so, I guess I also have to mention my partner is not an experienced ballet dancer, however he does do quite well with other partnered movements in PDD bless him. Oh and remember this is all done on demi-pointe.

My dd is doing partner work now - she just said to me that possibly your partner might be holding you slightly too tight, and that the hands should be barely touching. She also said that for multiples, the man can actually help by turning you if you slow down too soon. Hope this helps.

[drdance]

My first thought was also how tight is he holding your waist? Also I think there may be a psychological/space/proximity issue with PDD pirouettes as when we do them solo we are just that, no-one in our peripheral space. Yet in a PDD situation there is another person less than arms length away from you. Perhaps subconsciously you're doing something differently because of this? Have you tried videoing your turns and analyzing them? I'd still recommend doing it.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi drdance

 

I will try to video of my PDD pirouette for analysis when I’m back at the hall tomorrow (Friday) as I have a two hour booking, but it not all for this PDD which is from Act2 of Le Corsaire.

 

Although you have suggested there may be a psychological/space/ proximity issue, there are certainly differences in PDD, firstly the arm position after the launce not only come together but the forearms cross; I never do that as a stand alone. I guess also I’m in retire a little sooner so as to ensure clearance between my leg/knee and my partner. I have also tried launching in fifth with the gesturing in front (normal), and the gesturing leg behind (like a tiny fourth). The tiny fourth does appear to give slightly more power.

 

As for being held too tight, that was the first thing we ruled out, I’m also aware as taxis4ballet’s dd suggested that a partner can assist a turn by turning you. For me that has been a no no through fear of being taken off balance through loss of my control. I’m also going to try the merits of a super slippy porcelain floor, to test out my resistance theory, but it would be really useful to confirm that multiple turn pirouette in PDD are no problem on demi-pointe.

[Michelle_Richer]

I managed to record a video of the PDD pirouette, needless to say I thought it looked awful, arms were too low, gesturing foot was well below the knee in retire but there was a reason for that, but on the bright side I did manage to do a PDD double.

 

I found the partnered pirouette does need an awful lot more power, so I did launch it from a small fourth, so it looks a if it is just about doable, but everything has to contribute, it is much harder than an open pirouette.

 

Clearly this will need to have a lot of practice to make it consistent and good enough to take up to Ballet west for polishing in August.

 

The retire issue stems I guess from overuse of my right knee for Fouettes, which I need for the ending of Gulnare solo, a couple of weeks ago I spent a whole hour with almost non-stop practice , it wasn’t until a couple of days later the knee stared to swell and stiffen up, now I have trouble bending that knee to an acute angle. Normally I can take the retire just above the knee. 

 

Some interesting observations, the day I took the video the hall floor was a little sticky as I don’t think it had been cleaned and it left a bit of a black deposit on my ballet slippers, clearly that didn’t help.

 

I mentioned to my teacher at ENB last night I was doing PDD pirouettes, he didn’t think it was likely I could achieve more than a double do to resistance. He suggested I try canvas ballet slippers rather than leather, as those can be a little more slippy.

 

I did briefly try my super slippy porcelain floor and that certainly did create a psychological hang-up as it was so slippy it was difficult to stop even on flat foot, I didn’t pursue that any further.

 

I did get to see Vienna Festival Ballet’s Swan Lake last week and many of there PDD’s on full pointe were double turn pirouettes which looked quite beautiful, so I guess I will try and get good solid doubles and leave it at that for my PDDs.