Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, Anna C said:

Indeed.  I may be wrong here, but I believe that if you leave/are assessed out after 2 years of 16+ ballet training with a foundation degree or certificate, you are very limited in what subjects you can “top up” to a BA.  If your Level 5 HND/Foundation degree/diploma/certificate is in Dance or Dance related studies, you can only “top up” to a Level 6 degree in the same, or a closely related field.

You are correct. Which can leave students leaving the profession altogether in a difficult position. They have already used up 2 years-worth of student loan, so would have to self-fund part of a degree course in a different field, and won't have sufficient UCAS points anyway to be accepted onto the course. But because they have a level 5 qualification, they cannot access foundation courses or A-levels at their local college in order to top up their UCAS points, which are lower than level 5, but a level 5 doesn't qualify for UCAS points.

 

So basically, they are stuffed whichever way you look at it.

[Ruby Foo]

17 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

 
Another important element is the distance you feel from the ‘ ordinary ‘ world. If you’ve been training at a vocational school from 11 then that world is pretty much the only world you know. Training at the top level is no small deal. You have lived, breathed, talked and ate ballet for years and years. You have in fact become it. That, in fact, is the purpose of RBS not allowing day students at US. To make ballet their complete and utter focus. To shut out any possible distractions. We asked for a day student request and were refused on that premise.
This is where I feel ballet and football are very different. A very large percentage of the population can talk about some elements of football. Ballet, on the other hand is a very niche market.  Surprisingly, that lack of any decent knowledge about Ballet hasn’t really changed despite the internet. Chat to someone on the bus and say you are training as a Ballet Dancer and you will be met with either complete blankness or the opposite - a completely false understanding of what that means. It’s often a good laugh but not when you are grieving for  a good 6/7 years of your life and need to  express that to someone. Even counsellors find it difficult to get their heads round what has actually been going on those very important developmental years of your life. Childhood in fact. 

 

oh, and dreamed it… all those variations over and over…

[Ondine]

I'm having to LIKE posts as I am nodding vigorously along at what I read, but it seems such an inadequate response.

 

I think the word 'grief' sums up so much of this.

 

Anyone who has suffered loss of anything they hold dear knows how simply disabling it can be.  Picking up a new life when there is no possibility of carrying on with what you have planned for, dreamed for since childhood and it is suddenly snatched away from you, despite you having worked so hard, despite you still being very able, the almost the best of the best but judged not QUITE good enough, I think requires more than simply adaptability.

 

And yes

19 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

So basically, they are stuffed whichever way you look at it.

 

I recall many years ago talking to someone who made a very successful career teaching ballet after training at the RBS.  She wasn't taken into the company.  She so desperately wanted to dance. She completed the course. As it was ending, Dame Ninette spotted her in class one day while on a visit and took an interest, asking who she was etc etc. All too late, the chosen ones had been told they would join the company, the rest... left to it really.

 

She had tears in her eyes even then and I think the scars are very real and lasting for many. That's without all the other problems of bullying, shaming and being ignored.

 

Then there are the problems of actually explaining to others that you've 'failed'.   It's such an awful word, but how else to explain it?  So going along to an access course, mixing with others, trying to make new friends, have a 'normal' life, while all the while feeling you've 'failed' is a mountain to climb.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Ondine

[Baker45]

I know there is a lot of discussion on A levels and top ups and it is true that is you do not make it to graduation year (this is a very small number of students) they are sometimes offered to retake a year as an option. Those that do leave generally find places on other graduating years in other dance schools so it isnt like they drop out of ballet completely unless they chose to. Most normally carry on their dance careers elsewhere and find new dreams in other companies.

 

Also alongside the degree course the students must also take other academic studies which can include A Levels and any other courses available (whether they have the time or not is another question). They are also mentored with careers advice as to what they would do if things didnt go as planned, injuries cut a career short or just general advice what the training they have had can l lead them into in future

 

I do find some of the comments make some very big assumptions without actually knowing what is on offer and what alternatives there are should plans change. Yes the Panorama program has highlighted some failures in the system but to many in the system its light years ahead of a state school in support and opportunities

[Ondine]

7 minutes ago, Baker45 said:

I do find some of the comments make some very big assumptions without actually knowing what is on offer and what alternatives there are should plans change.

 

 

Though some of those commenting have real experience of 'the system' and it's not simply theory or hearsay or based on Panorama.

[Baker45]

23 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

This is great if thats the experience you had with state schools but there would be many out there who would think otherwise. Your experience is the same as ours in vocational ballet school and it highlights that is both systems there are teachers who fail their students. All Im saying is to pick on these vocations schools when in plain sight theres a whole country of issues is pretty blinkered. This time of life is supposed to be a time you look back on as probably some of the best times but mine couldnt wait to get out

 

If you think all mine does is sit in their flat talking ballet all night when they are based in central london with all that is offered in sight and nightlife then this is not right. The number of messages sent to the house staff to let them know about some grand plan to meet up with friends, see new things and generally probably get up to stuff I'd probably not want to hear would be several times a week. They become confident and adventurous and eager to seek out new things.

[Ondine]

16 minutes ago, Baker45 said:

the system its light years ahead of a state school in support and opportunities

 

Rather a sweeping assertion, many many state schools have dedicated staff, are supportive,  and give students opportunities.  Otherwise, no-one would leave school and go on to achieve anything in life.

[Ruby Foo]

26 minutes ago, Baker45 said:

I know there is a lot of discussion on A levels and top ups and it is true that is you do not make it to graduation year (this is a very small number of students) they are sometimes offered to retake a year as an option. Those that do leave generally find places on other graduating years in other dance schools so it isnt like they drop out of ballet completely unless they chose to. Most normally carry on their dance careers elsewhere and find new dreams in other companies.

 

Also alongside the degree course the students must also take other academic studies which can include A Levels and any other courses available (whether they have the time or not is another question). They are also mentored with careers advice as to what they would do if things didnt go as planned, injuries cut a career short or just general advice what the training they have had can l lead them into in future

 

I do find some of the comments make some very big assumptions without actually knowing what is on offer and what alternatives there are should plans change. Yes the Panorama program has highlighted some failures in the system but to many in the system its light years ahead of a state school in support and opportunities

They can choose to one A level online. 
There are very few options on which A levels they can choose. 
 

There was absolutely NO discussion at any point in year 1 or 2 about what their  plan B might be or what their training might lead to in the future 
 

I’m not sure where your Dd trains but certainly in my dd’s experience were too tired to trail to the corner shop in the evenings let alone socialise. Any socialising at weekends was mainly done with their friends within the school and the occasional trip once a year to a theme park. 
 

Given that most of Saturday was given up to classes , there’s not a lot of time or energy to trail around London.

And I am merely discussing our own experience at one particular school discussed on the Panorama programme.

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

22 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

Rather a sweeping assertion, many many state schools have dedicated staff, are supportive,  and give students opportunities.  Otherwise, no-one would leave school and go on to achieve anything in life.

Quite! Both of mine are in state schools and based on what I’ve read here, the state schools we’ve experience (albeit with over 1000 students each) seem to offer more opportunities and support. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that the opportunities are more varied. Last year, from one of my DC’s school, at least two went on to vocational dance schools. The others on to university to pursue medicine, law, dentistry and whole range of other programmes, some went on to degree apprenticeship programmes, took gap years overseas, gained worked experience before going on to uni. Additionally, despite the overwhelming difference in number of students, I’m certain the Heads of my DCs schools know my DC’s names and faces. I was shocked at @Ruby Foo’s experience of her DD’s head of school calling her DD the wrong name despite being in the school for years already. 

 

[Kerfuffle]

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

You are correct. Which can leave students leaving the profession altogether in a difficult position. They have already used up 2 years-worth of student loan, so would have to self-fund part of a degree course in a different field, and won't have sufficient UCAS points anyway to be accepted onto the course. But because they have a level 5 qualification, they cannot access foundation courses or A-levels at their local college in order to top up their UCAS points, which are lower than level 5, but a level 5 doesn't qualify for UCAS points.

 

So basically, they are stuffed whichever way you look at it.

What is so wrong about topping up to a performance degree, when that is what you’ve spent a lot of your life studying ? It doesn’t mean you can’t go on to get a job even in unrelated areas. Science and law are the closest to vocational types jobs where the training is specific but beyond that there are so many other careers that are wider in background experience. I know film makers who studied dance. 

[Anna C]

3 hours ago, Baker45 said:

All Im saying is to pick on these vocations schools when in plain sight theres a whole country of issues is pretty blinkered.

Well, I may be stating the obvious here, but this is Balletcoforum, and the Panorama/File on Four programmes were specifically about ballet schools.

 

Nobody’s saying there aren’t issues in state schools, or that there aren’t other problems facing the UK, but that doesn’t mean this isn’t an important issue.  If nobody had come forward about the abuse in gymnastics, or the goings-on at the ballet school in Scotland, and if ITV/BBC hadn’t been prepared to investigate, things would have continued as they were.

 

Just because something hasn’t happened to you or your child, doesn’t mean it (a) hasn’t happened to anyone else, or (b) that nobody should investigate, in order to stop it happening again.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Anna C
Grammar

[Anna C]

9 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

What is so wrong about topping up to a performance degree, when that is what you’ve spent a lot of your life studying ? It doesn’t mean you can’t go on to get a job even in unrelated areas. Science and law are the closest to vocational types jobs where the training is specific but beyond that there are so many other careers that are wider in background experience. I know film makers who studied dance. 

Nothing’s wrong with it, Kerfuffle, but it does mean your options (and financial means for further study) are limited.  
 

I think that if a student has had a traumatic time at 16+ training, and possibly wants nothing more to do with dance (at least for a while), having to do a year doing a top up degree in dance might be the absolute last thing they want to do.

[Kerfuffle]

I feel it’s likely that those problems started before upper school though for most. Perhaps by the time they are there they are already a bit burned out. For someone joining vocational for the  first time it might be easier at least psychologically to switch because their whole identity isn’t wrapped around being a dancer.
 

My DD is thrilled to be finally at upper school and able to specialise in what she’s interested in and in a broader sense, theatre. I can see her in other related areas if the ballet career doesn’t happen. My son is training as a musician (singer) , he’s 18, and if he doesn’t make it as a performer he too is likely to be in the performing arts. I don’t see their situations being that different to one another or her being worse off than he is. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[Lifeafterballet]

Luke Jennings described ballet as a “cult” and I am in total agreement.

Its not only the child that gets pulled into that world but the parents too. 
And, in my experience and the mum of two children who attended a school in the Panorama program, the more successful your child is deemed to be, the more blinded you are to the reality of what is happening and you start trying to justify and defend behaviours that are hurtful and damaging. 
It’s only when you and your child leave that world that the fog clears and you acknowledge the failings. But by then it’s too late to address the issues and you walk either bitterly away or quietly make peace with it. 
The Panorama program for us brought a lot of buried feelings to the surface as I’m sure it did for many past pupils and parents. 
 

 

[Ondine]

3 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I feel it’s likely that those problems started before upper school though for most. Perhaps by the time they are there they are already a bit burned out

 

On what evidence are you saying this?   I don't see that anyone posting their children's experiences here is saying this was the case?

 

I wish your children well, but any career 'in the performing arts' really isn't that straightforward to achieve. What alternatives do you envisage?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Ondine

[Ruby Foo]

4 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I feel it’s likely that those problems started before upper school though for most. Perhaps by the time they are there they are already a bit burned out. For someone joining vocational for the  first time it might be easier at least psychologically to switch because their whole identity isn’t wrapped around being a dancer.
 

My DD is thrilled to be finally at upper school and able to specialise in what she’s interested in and in a broader sense, theatre. I can see her in other related areas if the ballet career doesn’t happen. My son is training as a musician (singer) , he’s 18, and if he doesn’t make it as a performer he too is likely to be in the performing arts. I don’t see their situations being that different to one another or her being worse off than he is. 

This is not true for us. My dd had a relatively happy time at WL. Just like your Dd she was completely made up to be in Upper School. It was a huge honour and she was determined to work her butt off.

Sadly, as she is injured now and has been advised not to dance any more she will need to do A levels in order that she can use her training to help others in theirs. That is her wish. Not being able to move limits the relatable areas she might have otherwise leaned towards.

Hopefully, discussing these issues helps others in the future.

[Peanut68]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Three A levels at high grades is pretty hard to achieve even if not doing ballet on the side (let alone at vocational school)! I think something has to give. 10 GCSEs was bad enough last year for my DD! She was at ordinary state school, so  no easing off for the sake of ballet training! In the end there is no easy solution, you either end up compromising your ballet training or your academics.

Also if it’s a new upper school (ie. Student has not been in their lower school) it’s potentially harder to settle in & be accepted by the teachers/other students as they have no prior knowledge of your ability or already have their ‘friendship groups’ & can make new joiners feel unable to be up to the mark/feel unwanted & subsequently might drop out of subject/s

[Peanut68]

5 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I feel it’s likely that those problems started before upper school though for most. Perhaps by the time they are there they are already a bit burned out.

Rather a sweeping statement & absolutely not always the case… many change from one lower vocational school to a different upper school for a variety of reasons (eg. To specialise in a more distinct type of dance like ballet or contemporary or MT or to join a degree course - this could be a finance choice a fees often less & a student loan is possible so less reliance on parental money) 

And not all lower schools have an upper school (eg YDA - nit sure of new name) and many upper schools have no lower schools (eg. ENBS/Central/Rambert/RCS & many more training places) 

Until you are in it there is no way to pre-judge whether a former happy training experience can go on in that way or may transform into a terrible time. And I’m sure it can happen in reverse that a poor lower school training experience may move into a very fulfilling upper school training time - at same institution or a new one 

[Geoff]

19 hours ago, mum5678 said:

Another thing to consider is whether the child is 'tied in'... we were offered a scholarship to a vocational school on the understanding that if DS left he would have to pay back the tuition fees.

😱

[Kerfuffle]

10 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

On what evidence are you saying this?   I don't see that anyone posting their children's experiences here is saying this was the case?

 

I wish your children well, but any career 'in the performing arts' really isn't that straightforward to achieve. What alternatives do you envisage?

 

 

 

 

Based on the Panorama programme - these are 11-16 year olds who have been damaged by their experience at lower school. If you have been bullied, have suffered an eating disorder  or generally ill treated it’s going to affect how you respond to your 16+ training. If you’ve had supportive teachers up until then you are more likely to trust the teachers at upper school. This also happens in ordinary schools to some pupils - a bad early experience can take years to get over. I know this first hand. 
 

The arts sector is a major contributor to our country’s economy. A lot of my family and friends work in film, music and art sectors. It might be competitive but it is possible to have a career in these fields if you are interested in them. I think mine might get involved in education or teaching  if they aren’t directly involved in being on stage or behind the scenes. 

[Kerfuffle]

10 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

This is not true for us. My dd had a relatively happy time at WL. Just like your Dd she was completely made up to be in Upper School. It was a huge honour and she was determined to work her butt off.

Sadly, as she is injured now and has been advised not to dance any more she will need to do A levels in order that she can use her training to help others in theirs. That is her wish. Not being able to move limits the relatable areas she might have otherwise leaned towards.

Hopefully, discussing these issues helps others in the future.

I know you have explained what your daughter has been through and she was treated in the most appalling manner. I really sympathise with  her and  you too -she obviously deserved much better than this and should have been offered some guidance and the option to finish her degree at RBS.  Can she take more A Levels online? Will she recover from her injury sufficiently to be able to teach? 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[Kerfuffle]

9 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Rather a sweeping statement & absolutely not always the case… many change from one lower vocational school to a different upper school for a variety of reasons (eg. To specialise in a more distinct type of dance like ballet or contemporary or MT or to join a degree course - this could be a finance choice a fees often less & a student loan is possible so less reliance on parental money) 

And not all lower schools have an upper school (eg YDA - nit sure of new name) and many upper schools have no lower schools (eg. ENBS/Central/Rambert/RCS & many more training places) 

Until you are in it there is no way to pre-judge whether a former happy training experience can go on in that way or may transform into a terrible time. And I’m sure it can happen in reverse that a poor lower school training experience may move into a very fulfilling upper school training time - at same institution or a new one 

I said for most not all - this is a discussion that has mostly been about the experiences of children who trained from before 16, who were the subject of Panorama. Other than the girl talking about the upper school teacher talking about cutting off parts of her body the children in the film were this age group. Surely it’s logical then that what happens at this lower stage has some affect on their later training? And yes I know of very happy upper school students who were unhappy earlier on due to their treatment at those particular  schools mentioned but I think it’s taken a while to recover from the pain and disappointment they have suffered. 
 

What I’m trying to ask  (obviously badly)  is that had these kids not had an awful time in these earlier years would their later experiences have been better? Is the ballet cult described by Luke Jennings made worse by these very early selections of children? Is the boarding school experience part of this? 

[Jewel]

What I’m trying to ask  (obviously badly)  is that had these kids not had an awful time in these earlier years would their later experiences have been better? Is the ballet cult described by Luke Jennings made worse by these very early selections of children? Is the boarding school experience part of this? 

 

Although my child witnessed some of the things shown in the programme second hand at Lower School on the whole her experience was good.  She was also a day student at that point which probably helped and looking back she thinks her teachers did not subject her to some of the things others got.  It was only part way through upper school following some changes in staffing, management and ethos that she was treated very badly.

[Peanut68]

3 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I said for most not all - this is a discussion that has mostly been about the experiences of children who trained from before 16, who were the subject of Panorama. Other than the girl talking about the upper school

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences....

They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! 

My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices....

I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting?

And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy....

I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. 

So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! 

Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Peanut68
to add...

[taxi4ballet]

21 hours ago, Baker45 said:

I know there is a lot of discussion on A levels and top ups and it is true that is you do not make it to graduation year (this is a very small number of students) they are sometimes offered to retake a year as an option. Those that do leave generally find places on other graduating years in other dance schools so it isnt like they drop out of ballet completely unless they chose to. Most normally carry on their dance careers elsewhere and find new dreams in other companies.

 

Also alongside the degree course the students must also take other academic studies which can include A Levels and any other courses available (whether they have the time or not is another question). They are also mentored with careers advice as to what they would do if things didnt go as planned, injuries cut a career short or just general advice what the training they have had can l lead them into in future

 

I do find some of the comments make some very big assumptions without actually knowing what is on offer and what alternatives there are should plans change. Yes the Panorama program has highlighted some failures in the system but to many in the system its light years ahead of a state school in support and opportunities

There are a number of people who, for either physical injury or mental health reasons, leave the ballet world altogether part-way through upper school training. Some upper schools offer A-levels alongside the dance training, most don't. At those, if available at all, it is very much an optional add-on and no provision in the timetable is made for it. 

 

As for careers advice when dance is no longer an option... non-existent would be how I describe that.

[taxi4ballet]

20 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

What is so wrong about topping up to a performance degree, when that is what you’ve spent a lot of your life studying ? It doesn’t mean you can’t go on to get a job even in unrelated areas. Science and law are the closest to vocational types jobs where the training is specific but beyond that there are so many other careers that are wider in background experience. I know film makers who studied dance. 

Nothing wrong at all, if the student is up to it.

 

In my dd's case, it was several years before she could even bear to think about dance or performing arts again. She left vocational training with a career-ending injury, and emotionally - and this is not too strong a word for it - traumatised by the way she was treated with such sheer callous indifference. 

[Peanut68]

It can never be underestimated how trauma can affect an individual.....& I empathize with your daughters situation & wish her the very best recovery from injury & coming to terms with past negative experiences.

Not comparable....but I felt so jaded by bad vocational experience that it affected how I felt about the whole world of ballet & it was over 20 years before I discovered I could allow myself to enjoy it again both as an audience member & doing recreational adult ballet classes (& after 10 years a vocational exam....stick that you miserable snide Deputy Head of Dance!!!)

[Kerfuffle]

4 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences....

They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! 

My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices....

I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting?

And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy....

I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. 

So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! 

Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

 

 

 

Hi Peanut 68 . This Panorama was exactly the same week as a lot of upper schools started and was not an easy watch at all for us newbies! I will  definitely follow your advice over checking how she is getting on. I think it has put me on edge now! I often tell DD it’s ok to change routes if she wants to.
It’s so sad that you felt you couldn’t express your feelings when things went wrong for you. The bust reduction comment really is awful, nobody should have to hear that. The reason why I guess Panorama was particularly shocking was that these children were still ridiculously young to be told to “lengthen their lines”, an absurd comment to those still growing ! 
A girl I knew left upper school after a few weeks deciding it wasn’t what she wanted. She managed to slot back into her old school sixth form. I don’t know if she felt embarrassed and I think everyone understood it wasn’t for her. I don’t think anything you have said sounds trite. I remember feeling the pressure to succeed at art college mostly because it was the first time I had really been given a choice so it was my responsibility to keep going. 

[taxi4ballet]

40 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

This Panorama was exactly the same week as a lot of upper schools started and was not an easy watch at all for us newbies! 

Not an easy watch for the ADs and the teaching staff at vocational schools either. I don't think it was a random coincidence, I think the timing of the broadcast was deliberate.

 

[Kerfuffle]

19 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Not an easy watch for the ADs and the teaching staff at vocational schools either. I don't think it was a random coincidence, I think the timing of the broadcast was deliberate.

 

I’m sure you’re right. Let’s hope it results in some good ! 

[Ruby Foo]

6 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences....

They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! 

My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices....

I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting?

And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy....

I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. 

So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! 

Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing this Peanut. I can empathise and know these issues don’t just disappear when you leave the school or the world of ballet. They are with you  in some context for a lifetime.

My Dd thought it was completely normal that a teacher never looked or corrected her in class. It was only when I asked her how she liked that certain teacher that she said ‘ oh that teacher never looks or corrects anyone except ? and ? , it’s the same every week. ‘ The rest of us know to work for ourselves in her class on things that we know need to be better because she doesn’t even give us a glance.

The quiet kind of abuse that the students accept as part of the course.

[Lifeafterballet]

14 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Thank you for sharing this Peanut. I can empathise and know these issues don’t just disappear when you leave the school or the world of ballet. They are with you  in some context for a lifetime.

My Dd thought it was completely normal that a teacher never looked or corrected her in class. It was only when I asked her how she liked that certain teacher that she said ‘ oh that teacher never looks or corrects anyone except ? and ? , it’s the same every week. ‘ The rest of us know to work for ourselves in her class on things that we know need to be better because she doesn’t even give us a glance.

The quiet kind of abuse that the students accept as part of the course.

I wonder if this is the same teacher that was at YBSS and only acknowledged the pupils from her school 🤔

[Ballet Saga]

On 26/09/2023 at 16:16, taxi4ballet said:

You are correct. Which can leave students leaving the profession altogether in a difficult position. They have already used up 3 years-worth of student loan, so would have to self-fund part of a degree course in a different field, and won't have sufficient UCAS points anyway to be accepted onto the course. But because they have a level 5 qualification, they cannot access foundation courses or A-levels at their local college in order to top up their UCAS points, which are lower than level 5, but a level 5 doesn't qualify for UCAS points.

 

So basically, they are stuffed whichever way you look at it.

This isn’t true. You can get funding for a second degree (limited Choice but it’s not true to say ‘they are stuffed’). You also can do an Open University degree with no A Levels and get funding for it (even though it’s classed as part time, you can finish it within 3 years). 
You can get funding for 4 years for your first degree. 

i just think it’s important to put that information out there. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Graceful
Changed 2 years to 3 years