Vocational Pathway - How many hours should they train for?

[balletdreams410]

I’m curious to know how many hours a week should be considered if your child wants to aim for a vocational pathway.

Financially, I can only afford 4 hours a week of classes with her dance school plus her fortnightly associate class. I am currently trying to find a second job to try give it a boost.

I’m just concerned in hindsight will it ever be enough, when she’ll always be up against girls who do way more plus competitions etc. Is it just an unrealistic goal? She’ll always be perceived as behind surely?

[Anna C]

Hi balletdreams410, and welcome.  Much depends on how old your daughter is; is she aiming for full-time training at 11+, or 16+?

[Doing Dance 1]

2 hours ago, balletdreams410 said:

I’m curious to know how many hours a week should be considered if your child wants to aim for a vocational pathway.

Financially, I can only afford 4 hours a week of classes with her dance school plus her fortnightly associate class. I am currently trying to find a second job to try give it a boost.

I’m just concerned in hindsight will it ever be enough, when she’ll always be up against girls who do way more plus competitions etc. Is it just an unrealistic goal? She’ll always be perceived as behind surely?

I can recommend these articles on the subject. 

 

So when do you know a child is doing enough? Some good indications are that they are happy, healthy and enjoying their dance lessons. Also that they are making steady progress in their dancing and want to continue their learning. When we ask ‘how much is enough?’ we should be thinking in terms of the quality of the student experience and not how much training they do.

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/2019/10/31/ballet-training-how-much-is-enough/

 

Limiting hours spent in organised sport (training and competition) per week such that they do not exceed the athlete’s age. E.g. a 10 year old should not train more than 10 hours per week across all sports,

 

https://www.danceaustralia.com.au/expertise/how-intensely-should-children-train

 

The trend to put kids who are “serious” about sports in specialized, intensive training is just as common in dance. While it’s hard to hold off on such immersion until later, it would likely benefit young students. “Doing multiple types of movement makes for a better dancer,” Harwood says. “You know your body better and you have more tools in your tool kit. And the variety keeps it interesting and prevents burnout.”

https://www.dancemagazine.com/young-dancers-specialization/

Younger dancers should be training even less than that. Jayanthi adds that “based on the data, it’s pretty clear that if you train for more hours per week than your age [e.g., 12 hours for a 12-year- old], you’re more likely to have overuse injury.”

https://dance-teacher.com/its-time-to-rethink-hyperspecialization-for-young-dancers/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Doing Dance 1

[Jan McNulty]

Here is a link to an earlier thread that may have useful information:

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

It would very much depend on where she wants to go and at what age. Of course the advice is to focus on your child’s training and to not be influenced or affected by others’ training but the ballet world is very small and it’s very hard not to notice what others are doing. Let’s just say that in some associates’ parents talks there have been discussions on the worrying number of injuries due to overtraining and I also noticed that some of these institutions that release articles on how it’s quality over quantity are also the same ones that recruit heavily students who are extremely trained for many hours, most likely more hours than these articles recommend.  It is a very expensive and time consuming journey sadly and I would say it is even more so if your DC is a DD. You will have to weigh the pros and cons and whilst it’s easy to be carried away by the ‘now’, you also have to think long term (career opportunities, effects on family dynamics, possible plan Bs and Cs).

[Mummy twinkle toes]

Hi Balletdreams, I know how expensive it can be so consider where she is currently. What is she doing in those 4 hours- is it just ballet? Does that school have a history of successful students eg progressing into good vocational schools?

If this is her chosen path are you spending on other hobbies that she could stop to focus on ballet instead?

Competitions can be useful but several children go into vocational schools without being in them so don’t worry about them.

At 12, my Dd was due to go to lower school but dh was made redundant so we considered other options. She joint a youth company and this was invaluable as she got to perform with professional dancers. She was an associate on a Saturday and during the week studied RAD and Legat ballet. We saved so she could attend good SIs in the summer.

She went to upper school at 16. It is not easy and lots of her peers have lots more money than we do but there are opportunities for scholarships and grants along the way.

At 11, 4 quality hours plus associates can be sufficient. If your Dd is older then try to see if you can increase the hours. Helping out with junior classes may be a way.

Good luck.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Mummy twinkle toes
Typo

[balletdreams410]

18 hours ago, balletdreams410 said:

I’m curious to know how many hours a week should be considered if your child wants to aim for a vocational pathway.

Financially, I can only afford 4 hours a week of classes with her dance school plus her fortnightly associate class. I am currently trying to find a second job to try give it a boost.

I’m just concerned in hindsight will it ever be enough, when she’ll always be up against girls who do way more plus competitions etc. Is it just an unrealistic goal? She’ll always be perceived as behind surely?

Sorry, would have helped if I was more specific 🤦‍♀️

DD9 - currently does RAD Grade 3, RBS ATAP, ISTD Grade 3 Modern and Unaffiliated Contemporary. Associate classes are fortnightly term time only.

Vocational at 11 would be amazing, but in my heart I just don’t think she’ll make the cut compared to others

[Anna C]

8 minutes ago, balletdreams410 said:

Sorry, would have helped if I was more specific 🤦‍♀️

DD9 - currently does RAD Grade 3, RBS ATAP, ISTD Grade 3 Modern and Unaffiliated Contemporary. Associate classes are fortnightly term time only.

Vocational at 11 would be amazing, but in my heart I just don’t think she’ll make the cut compared to others

In my humble opinion, 4 hours a week at 9 is plenty.  She’s very young! Lots of children are still doing Brownies/swimming classes and other hobbies at 9, not just focusing on dance (plus they need time to be children, go to birthday parties, and so on).

 

If she has the potential, desire, and physical facility to go into full-time ballet training, you could drop think about dropping the tap and swap it for a non-syllabus/pre-vocational ballet class if available, and start looking at Easter/summer courses like London Children’s Ballet (or equivalent near you) for next year.  But I really wouldn’t worry too much. 😊

[glowlight]

It is some time since my dd was training, but I think it is important to value quality over quantity.

 

ie it isn't only about the hours of training, it is about the quality of that training.

 

If your dd is getting good quality training at her local dance school, plus an associates class, that sounds like a very good place to be at aged 9.  Gosh I think my dd was only doing 1 ballet class a week at that age!  Vocational school wasn't on her radar for year 7, but she got bitten by the bug a bit later, ramped up her local training in her teens, and she went to vocational school at 16.

 

Even if money was no object, you might still find yourself wondering if you've done enough.  All you can do is the best you can with what is available to you given your financial position, the time you have available and what opportunities are available to you locally.

 

Please don't fall into the trap of giving up everything for this dream.  I know families who have sold the family home so their child can go to vocational school and that puts huge pressure on both the family and the child.  

 

Do what you can within your means, and try to enjoy the journey.

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

3 minutes ago, glowlight said:

 

 

Please don't fall into the trap of giving up everything for this dream.  I know families who have sold the family home so their child can go to vocational school and that puts huge pressure on both the family and the child.  

 

Do what you can within your means, and try to enjoy the journey.

 

 

 Exactly this. Or giving up family holidays, cars, getting second jobs. I think more than the financial side of it is time lost with other family members. I’ve encountered so many young dancers and parents and then I get shocked these young dancers actually have siblings as they never feature in their parents’ social media posts or weekends! It’s easy to get so focused on your DC’s dream that there are things that get given up and you don’t want it to get to a point where you eventually  regret it. I already feel guilty spending most weekend day times with DD alone because of her associates class and that’s with having the rest of my week free to spend time with her and the rest of the family. This summer is the first time I will be going with her, just me and her, to a week-long summer intensive overseas but I already feel guilty about the rest of the family not coming with us. That’s a week in the summer we won’t be with them. Support them as best as you can but remember that they are only young once and these times are times with her and other family members you can’t get back. 
 

At 9 your DD seems to be doing enough but believe me, depending on where she wants to go for vocational school, you will notice that training for most kids ramp up in years 5 and 6. A lot of those who get places in certain top schools do quite a lot of hours including private lessons, associates, PBT/physio etc etc. there are still some who get in on a couple of classes in the week and an associates scheme but again depending on where she wants to go, you’ll notice it will be very rare for someone who does 1-2 ballet classes within the week and 1 associates scheme (with no extras like private lessons) to get a place at certain schools. And the higher up the years you go, it gets tougher to get a place and you’ll feel the need to do more and more and more (we are talking perhaps entering international comps). You will have to think about whether this is sustainable and worth the dream. 

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, glowlight said:

It is some time since my dd was training, but I think it is important to value quality over quantity.

 

ie it isn't only about the hours of training, it is about the quality of that training.

 

If your dd is getting good quality training at her local dance school, plus an associates class, that sounds like a very good place to be at aged 9.  Gosh I think my dd was only doing 1 ballet class a week at that age!  Vocational school wasn't on her radar for year 7, but she got bitten by the bug a bit later, ramped up her local training in her teens, and she went to vocational school at 16.

 

Even if money was no object, you might still find yourself wondering if you've done enough.  All you can do is the best you can with what is available to you given your financial position, the time you have available and what opportunities are available to you locally.

 

Please don't fall into the trap of giving up everything for this dream.  I know families who have sold the family home so their child can go to vocational school and that puts huge pressure on both the family and the child.  

 

Do what you can within your means, and try to enjoy the journey.

 

 

Such good advice, glowlight.  Quality above quantity is so important, as is enjoying the journey rather than constantly worrying about the destination.  

[Lifeafterballet]

3 hours ago, balletdreams410 said:

Sorry, would have helped if I was more specific 🤦‍♀️

DD9 - currently does RAD Grade 3, RBS ATAP, ISTD Grade 3 Modern and Unaffiliated Contemporary. Associate classes are fortnightly term time only.

Vocational at 11 would be amazing, but in my heart I just don’t think she’ll make the cut compared to others

My daughter did half an hour a week of ballet til she was 10. No other form of dance but lots of sport. Netball, cross country, rugby etc.
She did RBS JA and Elmhurst JA in year 6 and then went to vocational ballet school for year 7. 

She had the right facility and a love of ballet, that’s all. 50 hours of training a week wouldn’t have made her successful if she hadn’t got those things. 
I regret letting her go at 11. In my experience it’s too young and lower school training doesn’t guarantee passage to upper school or a career in ballet. We 100% should have waited and explored options at 16 if she still wanted to. There are lots of fantastic opportunities for 11 to 16 year olds that they miss out on if in vocational training. And a childhood is important too.

Just in our experience 😌

[DD Driver]

Our experience is that ballet training requires significantly more hours of strength training than can be found in most ballet school timetables.

I wish we had reduced ballet hours and increased time in the gym (weight bearing exercises) before an injury finally forced this change.

 

Sports training has changed dramatically over the last 2 decades but ballet is slow to embrace these learnings for young dancers.

Strength is critical for peak performance & injury prevention.

[Pas de Quatre]

When you say 'weight  bearing exercises' do you actually mean working with weights? There is a lot of confusion about this term which basically means you are on your feet -  as in running, dancing, playing most sports on a court or field etc. Non-weight bearing means activities such as cycling, swimming, rowing, sitting in the various gym machines. The former are essential for bone maintenance and to avoid osteoporosis, the latter are good for cardio and targeting specific muscle groups, or for when recovering from injury.

[balletdreams410]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. I’m actually relieved that most of you are saying what we have in place is enough. Social media is so good at making you think otherwise!

I would like to stress here that I am following my DD’s lead here. This is her goal at the moment (must commend her for aiming so high haha) so I just want to give her the best chance so even if it doesn’t work out, she can see we gave it all we could. If it was up to me she’d only do it for fun 😂 I am grateful she is an only child though, bravo to those who juggle more than one child.

I’m very cautious about her mental well-being, she is autistic, and dance is so much more to her than an activity. She uses dance to express herself when she struggles. If she doesn’t want to dance that day, I won’t push her to. My biggest fear is she’ll lose her love for it, so I approach classes with caution. I know as she gets older the pressure intensifies but hopefully by then she’ll have coping mechanisms in place.

I don’t know what to do vocational wise, yes 11 will be amazing but I honestly don’t think she’ll make the cut, but if she wants it enough, there’s always the following year etc.

Thank you again, all the best with your kids x

[Lifeafterballet]

8 hours ago, DD Driver said:

Our experience is that ballet training requires significantly more hours of strength training than can be found in most ballet school timetables.

I wish we had reduced ballet hours and increased time in the gym (weight bearing exercises) before an injury finally forced this change.

 

Sports training has changed dramatically over the last 2 decades but ballet is slow to embrace these learnings for young dancers.

Strength is critical for peak performance & injury prevention.

100% agree.

Strength and conditioning are essential to reduce the risk of injury and the ballet world has been slow to take this on board. The myth that weight training causes bulky muscles, something that dancers fear, must be dispelled. 
If my dancing children had the advice and knowledge that they have today then their fractures and injuries from weak muscles and over training would not have occurred 😢

[Dance*is*life]

I think she's at a good place for 9 years old.  Our Grade 3s are 9 and they do twice a week 75 minute classes, plus modern and flamenco.   Going away from home at 11 to board can be traumatic (and being autistic might be even harder for her)  and as people have said - joining at 11 is also no guarantee for continuing on to upper school, which is vital.  Most important of all is that she enjoys her classes and that she is being taught correctly.   If you can increase her ballet hours as she gets older that would be beneficial.  She would also need to start pointe work at some time.  I knew from a very young age that that ballet was what I wanted to do, but whilst being immensely supportive, my parents also made sure I enjoyed my childhood.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

If she is interested in doing dance long term, from age 11, and would want the stability of being in the same school for at least the first 5 years (preferably on to the ‘upper school’ of the same school, if they have one), I would urge you to look at the recent years’ progression statistics of the schools you are interested in auditioning for. These stats present a very telling story, especially if you are after stability and the mental well-being of not being under pressure all the time.  How many of those who start in year 7 are still there in year 11? How many of those progress on to their schools’ upper school/sixth form/etc and for those who don’t, where do they end up going?  Is the school system structured in a way that students get to nurture their love for dance and not be under constant scrutiny and pressure to keep their place? Of those who leave before they finish from the school, why did they leave? When they leave, is their love for dance still intact? 

[DD Driver]

7 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

When you say 'weight  bearing exercises' do you actually mean working with weights? 

 

Yes my DD's physio exercises include 2 or 3 kg weights e. a weighted cuff for the ankle.

She did this type of exercise from 14 years old when she had a problem but not as part of an ongoing regime.

She also now does gym with weight machines.  She has not bulked up.  (That happens more with very heavy weights and low repetitions.)

[Ruby Foo]

2 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

If she is interested in doing dance long term, from age 11, and would want the stability of being in the same school for at least the first 5 years (preferably on to the ‘upper school’ of the same school, if they have one), I would urge you to look at the recent years’ progression statistics of the schools you are interested in auditioning for. These stats present a very telling story, especially if you are after stability and the mental well-being of not being under pressure all the time.  How many of those who start in year 7 are still there in year 11? How many of those progress on to their schools’ upper school/sixth form/etc and for those who don’t, where do they end up going?  Is the school system structured in a way that students get to nurture their love for dance and not be under constant scrutiny and pressure to keep their place? Of those who leave before they finish from the school, why did they leave? When they leave, is their love for dance still intact? 

This is very good advice although it’s difficult to find the exact statistics with students arriving and leaving on a termly/ yearly basis. In our own experience, at least 8 girls from my dds year at WL / Upper School have given up dance completely. I can’t say why except to say some were through injury or health type issues. As the training progresses the pressure also increases. It’s a pyramid which becomes extremely, extremely narrow at the top, ( understatement).For those of you just starting out, I can’t stress this enough. I say this so that you can become more creative and open minded as you go along and enjoy just one day at a time.

Some important questions dancers need to ask themselves are ‘Am I a performer?’ In the general sense of that word? If Ballet can not happen for me then do I still want to be a performer?  Because if the answer is yes, then it’s important to nurture other performance skills and styles alongside the Ballet training. I believe if you did these as a child and reached a reasonable level in them then you will be able to fall back on them at some point even if you haven’t studied them recently. Contemporary will be super important for the latter part alongside Classical training. Secondly, do I love Ballet for ballet’s sake? And not because I’m at a certain establishment which teaches a certain style in a certain way and has all the trappings that benefit a student. Ballet can be served many ways and can be a very different experience depending on where you are in the world. It can be quite a shock to find this out if you been in one arena all your training life.
The employment prospects in Classical Ballet at present are very bleak indeed. Companies are just not taking dancers now and with the difficulties that Brexit has brought regarding visas it’s not looking good for the future. There are very VERY FEW vocational schools in the world good enough to produce classical dancers good enough to get one of those (very rare) jobs.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

2 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

The employment prospects in Classical Ballet at present are very bleak indeed. Companies are just not taking dancers now and with the difficulties that Brexit has brought regarding visas it’s not looking good for the future. There are very VERY FEW vocational schools in the world good enough to produce classical dancers good enough to get one of those (very rare) jobs.

This seems spot on. Just yesterday I saw a top EU vocational school announce their students who I believe received contracts into the company’s corps and there were only 3 females and 1 male. All of whom appear to be nationals of that country. Just a few years ago, I’m pretty sure it was almost double that number from that school into their company including at least one international student.  Also within the last few days I saw an announcement about joiners and leavers for a U.K. company and within the leavers section were at least two dancers who only joined the company at the start of the season in what I assumed to have been (at the time) permanent contracts (rather than per show), though I could be wrong.