Not vocational training.

[NotadanceMa]

@Kate_N what you outline raises the difficult issue of ‘is the U.K. training good enough’ - I suspect we are all in agreement about the elite part of training to become a professional ballet dancer, however the conversation is perhaps why ‘hothouse’ when vocational training in the U.K. is listed as one of the best in the world. We also are aware surely of the long term impact on the mind and body of hothousing, even in an academic setting.

The OP from me is also about the change to a training program, about it no longer being vocational in the same way. Why? 
 

If more and more training is the answer then surely this implies, well it does to me that the training on offer is either not good enough here, or that the RB is making a statement about how it sees ballet training reframed. (Speculation I know, but I see it as a positive change. I notice that Elmhurst have also reviewed the way the implement their ballet training program underpinned through University research by one of the teachers with the 11+Dance program Strength Motion Mind)

 

There is new evidence (well not so new anymore) garnering much more widespread recognition, concerning all areas of sports medicine and research that evidences early hyperspecialisation especially in girls under 12 leads to higher incidence of injury and burnout, and that what is being suggested is cross training and athletics from an early age with an absolute maximum of only 10 hrs dance training up to the age of 12. Up to age 16 the recommendations are for no more than 16 hrs per week with 2 to 3 full months off per year for students in full-time training to allow the body to develop, rest and heal.

 

We all here I think acknowledge that ballet is an elite art form but for me the pursuit of its training falls very far from any kind of elite pursuit with the continued push and scramble to do as much as is humanly possible. 
 

I know we all mention Miko Fogarty, but it’s worth reading what she wrote about her ballet training; it’s a perfect summation of what for me is currently being pursued in the ballet world atm, and gathering much momentum it feels.

 

[Lifeafterballet]

1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

 

I think I know to whom you're referring - he has posted here on occasion. I did quite a few of his online classes during the lockdowns which he generously did for free every day of the week. While these were not classes where we could receive feedback or individual corrections, his teaching is exceptional. The purity and simplicity of the technique he teaches, his pragmatic way of explaining how to do the simple and the difficult things (he's soooo good on balance and where you need to put your weight) are wonderful.

 

So a large SM presence does not automatically equate with lack of quality or playing the system.

 

I assume @cotes du rhone !that that is not what you are implying - but the debate on this & the other thread has tended to be in such either/or terms that are far too simplistic for the complexities of professional ballet training.

 

We need to consider the "and/and" as well as the "either/or" - which some posters are doing on this (and the other) thread, in amongst the whisperings of xenophobia and acting out of the understandable pain & bitterness at the toughness of the training and the profession.

 

Ballet at a high, professional level - like many sports, like music, like fine arts, like nuclear physics, like mathematics, like genetic biology and so on and on - is an elite profession. And so it should be.

He is an exceptional teacher. I know this because he taught both my children in their graduate year. 
I wasn’t implying that a large social media following meant a lack of quality or playing the system. Quite the opposite. He is a very generous, nurturing and supportive teacher and maybe this is reflected in his students success. He sure is proud of them and their achievements. 
I’ll reread my post again. I’m sure that I was helping and not being critical 🤔

[NotadanceMa]

15 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

I'm perpetually puzzled, in this discussion, about where posters are getting their evidence? Apart from anecdotal observations ... 

It wasn’t an anecdotal observation it was made in response to a post from a parent talking about her daughter who is a professional ballet dancer in Europe I believe.

 

It would be helpful if you were specific in what you see as ‘not evidence based’ and @ specific posters and then they could reply accordingly.

What is it that puzzles you particularly can you say?

 

I am happy to evidence, qualify any questions you may have. 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by NotadanceMa
Syntax

[Kerfuffle]

@NotadanceMaThank you, that is what I was referring to. @Kate_NA lot of parents posting will have information that they could back up with evidence but are protecting their source or identity - I think this is fair enough considering the ballet world is tiny. If you are going to read the posters then you need to bear this in mind. We ballet parents don’t want to expose our friends, their children or our own children to unnecessary gossip, they haven’t asked for it and deserve privacy. So if anything I write seems unsubstantiated it is because I am protecting people I know as much as possible. If we don’t discuss this then future parents of younger children can’t benefit from the collective experience - and we all know that those a bit further down the line can help hugely in this most complicated and demanding of industries! 

[Out-the-other-side]

How do any of us objectively gauge who is an exceptional teacher or not? On our own personal experiences of them? (or our DC’s)  On their student successes? Both of these ways of measuring are in my opinion flawed.

Two vocational standard dancers in the same class can have very different  experiences based on many factors. These includes physical attributes - as parent of a now ex DD who is tall,  she very rarely had exercises adapted to suit her height and longer limbs in school. But when this did happen, for example with tall guest teachers who understood, it was transformational. And, as controversial as this may be, teachers bring their own biases/personal baggage to class and this impacts on the student experience albeit often unintentionally (though sadly not always). Yes unfortunately, we have many personal experiences of this but sharing them here will surely get this thread locked. But they are real and documented and were finally dealt with by the school in question. Some people would still argue that their DC  had (and continue to have) exceptional teaching from the very teachers who damaged my DD and others and were the direct cause of her walking away from ballet and to now be receiving counselling to recover from the trauma. 
Also teachers who offer private coaching (with the pre agreed focus on vocational school application success) can be very selective and honest (rightly so in my opinion)  in whom they chose to mentor - they indeed do know how to spot those DC with potential AND the right physical facility but this selectivity can potentially skew the big picture. A little like on this forum annually when associate and vocational application results come out - it’s human nature to want to share the successes and not the ‘failures’ but it doesn’t give the true picture and can be unintentionally misleading. 

 

[BalletBoysDad]

4 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Hi @BalletBoysDadplease don’t feel like we are having a go at you, it’s clear that you are giving your son the very best you can and that is wonderful. The young boys in international ballet competitions can be pretty intimidating with their fantastic skills! It’s hard for even a vocational school to replicate that level of tricks when they are trying to do things safely so there will always be a bit of a mismatch. Does he have male teachers that inspire and challenge him? It’s important that he gets that sort of input as he gets older so that he can really use his developing physique to its maximum. My daughter was at a regular RAD school then switched to Russian a year ago. There are several boys there who can partner her very effectively and also are amazing soloist dancers, thanks to the teachers, (one of them is male). You might consider the hours that they do as fairly intense as it’s daily plus at weekends. They perform full professional repertoire. So it’s possible even outside WL etc to get that sort of training if you’re lucky enough to live near it! My DD does SA too. They are all older than your son - about to start their upper school training. Best of luck to your DS! 

I don’t take any offence at all. I find the discussion extremely interesting. Not necessarily concerning the opinions of  anyone here, I often find conversations concerning age, hothousing, vocational or non-vocational routes very black and white, without all the ‘shades of grey’ and that maybe make decisions and routes more personal from student to student. If people take time to better understand what people mean, rather than taking immediate offence, it removes the ‘heat’ and makes the discussion more balanced and interesting. 

[Kerfuffle]

28 minutes ago, BalletBoysDad said:

I don’t take any offence at all. I find the discussion extremely interesting. Not necessarily concerning the opinions of  anyone here, I often find conversations concerning age, hothousing, vocational or non-vocational routes very black and white, without all the ‘shades of grey’ and that maybe make decisions and routes more personal from student to student. If people take time to better understand what people mean, rather than taking immediate offence, it removes the ‘heat’ and makes the discussion more balanced and interesting. 

You are right, it is shades of grey and there are overlaps between different approaches . I think that sometimes parents of vocational students might think some of this is critical or patronising, making out they are naive for their choices.  I believe we can learn from each other if we listen. 

[rowan]

No, my DD didn’t go away to train at 16 either. But she was at a very, very good local school. I would also say that she was never accepted as a JA, MA or offered RBS summer school or do any competitions. She didn’t do an apprenticeship or junior company. One thing I would say is the importance of contemporary ballet. It’s really important. DD is very “classical” but you can be “too classical” and that will narrow your job options, or if you get hired, you might not be cast in those contemporary performances. Even large national ballet companies will do contemporary. 

[BalletBoysDad]

6 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

The Russian schools do amazingly well, I can immediately think of two, one in London and one in the southwest, whose students do extremely well not just here but in Europe. Their timetables are brilliant, students can basically train up to 6 days a week without having to leave home at an early age. They also seem to have more performance opportunities. The downside obviously is that you have to live relatively nearby to make full use of such hours. Otherwise I can imagine it is easier for these parents to turn down full time offers to let their children train in these schools and then they can still stay at home with them especially when they’re so young. The list of schools these graduates go on to is very impressive - top schools in Germany, Switzerland, Norway…and regular offers from WL for their younger students. My DC isn’t a student of either of these schools btw so this is not an advert.

I did genuinely consider this route. I was extremely impressed with YDA, which although ‘vocational’ doesn’t have boarding, so meant my DS could stay at home. However he really wanted to go to WL. I was also really impressed with the Russian school I assume you’re referring to in West London. My DS did their Easter course and not only really enjoyed it, he found the content enjoyably challenging. This could have been a perfect option for blending ongoing, challenging and purposeful training that keeps you ‘well in the game’ for others pursuing all sorts of routes. But having only recently moved back to London, our ‘regular school choice’ isn’t a choice at all. It would be a dreadful high school where (without a crystal ball) I’d be extremely worried my DS would be miserable. But I do think that, if you’re London based and are confident with your regular school choice, those non-vocational options are absolutely viable. I’ve also seen a number of their boys go to Vaganova. 

[rowan]

I would be wary about foreigners training at the big Russian schools too.     It’s not necessarily a marker of future success either, though it may feel like it, I’m sure, at the time. Again, it may be different for girls than boys. DD has known a few along the way who trained this way -not necessarily British - and although it may be the case that the very talented get jobs with relative ease, it’s also the case that some quit ballet within a year or so - as with many, many ballet students, no matter their nationality or where they trained.

[Kerfuffle]

1 hour ago, rowan said:

I would be wary about foreigners training at the big Russian schools too.     It’s not necessarily a marker of future success either, though it may feel like it, I’m sure, at the time. Again, it may be different for girls than boys. DD has known a few along the way who trained this way -not necessarily British - and although it may be the case that the very talented get jobs with relative ease, it’s also the case that some quit ballet within a year or so - as with many, many ballet students, no matter their nationality or where they trained.

Do you mean the Russian schools in the U.K. or those abroad?

[rowan]

I mean Russian schools abroad. I know of non-Russians who attended these schools who never found a job, or who left ballet after one year of company life. In DD’s company, they only took I think only one new company member from the national affiliated ballet school, but several foreigners. So, obviously, there’s mutterings there about the quality of training or the quality of the graduating students - the same as everywhere else. Having a big-name school on your CV will open doors, though, at least for auditions. Once in the audition, that’s a different matter.

[Kerfuffle]

The non Russian girls  are put in a separate class at Bolshoi until they are considered good enough so I think there is a disparity in training. How did your daughter get around the lack of big name school for auditions? What style was she taught?

[rowan]

@Kerfuffle

She just applied for every audition going. She was very dedicated and organised. We ruled out anywhere in the US, as it was too expensive to travel there. Her teacher helped her get a couple of auditions, but no job offers came from those. I’m sure there were auditions she was never offered, because she had not attended a known school, but she had to do the best she could. Her auditions were virtually all cattle call. She seemed to get enough audition offers and had a (small) choice of job offers. At the auditions, it doesn’t matter where people trained.  Her first ever audition, one of the big German companies, she made the final five, and they wanted four. Those places went to Vaganova graduates and one from elsewhere -don’t know where. That’s the level expected.  Remember, at auditions, dancers are up against not just new graduates, but established dancers from other companies, even soloists. But company life can wear thin. Dancers quit, quite often. 
 

DD was Russian-method trained. 
She still thinks if she had been to a well known upper school like the RBS, or possibly ENBS, it would have been easier.

 

[Birdy]

In the US ballet boarding schools are a very rare thing, but we do have about every other option for training, depending where one lives. It seems to me that the most intense “hothousing” of students occurs before the age of 14, which seems absurd to me. I understand that the pressure in the UK must be far different if your child is seeking a place at vocational school. In the US it just boggles my mind. Being the “best” dancer at 14 is meaningless. It has almost no bearing on what the dancer will look like at 18, and in my opinion causes more harm than good. Ballet is a marathon, not a sprint. So many teens quit due to injury, burn out, or just reassessing what makes them happy. I tried very hard to emphasize to my daughter that her path was her own. She had great teachers at school that did their best to create a nurturing environment. We live in an area with a lot of Russian schools that do well at YAGP and send kids to Prix, so it wasn’t always easy to see other kids being recognized nationally and internationally or having their skills publicly validated, but my DD knew that wasn’t what she wanted or needed. She has so far managed to survive ballet with her confidence and sanity intact and will be moving to study at a prominent school in Europe this fall, without a CV full of awards.

 

I don’t know how schools look at so many talented kids and pick the ones they want. I don’t know why some schools don’t give a second round audition invite to the same kid that is accepted immediately after first round at another school. They’re all looking for some undefinable thing that appeals to them specifically, I suppose. 

[Kate_N]

9 hours ago, rowan said:

Those places went to Vaganova graduates and one from elsewhere

This could be as much about the style, as the “name” school. My (anecdotal) observations are that the Vaganova style is recognised and valued in Germany, as this was the main influence in the former East Germany, for example. 
 

In the same way that Australian dancers are often quite recognisable for a particular energy, and American dancers, trained in the very fast style for Balanchine, differ from the more restrained classical style of English style dancers.

 

The differences are small, and about emphasis, but at the level of a major German company, for example, might be what tips things. Polina Semionova, for example, trained at the Bolshoi,  had a cult following in Berlin! At this level, it’s about what the Artistic Director is looking for. 

 

I’m sure that your daughter knows all this though @rowan

[rowan]

Yes, style and director preferences can make a difference. DD made at least the last round everywhere she auditioned, so something in general was right.

 

But to bring back to the subject of vocational school or not, the difference between US training and UK is that most dance schools here don’t offer in general anywhere near enough classes of the right level to be able to progress. You need to have class five-six days a week, and of a decent length. 45 minutes twice a week isn’t going to cut it. And for those wondering why DD didn’t go to vocational school - and did we make a studied choice over what to do - she simply wouldn’t have got in. Definitely not at 11. She’d only been dancing for a couple of years. At 16, no way would she have got RBS or ENBS she thinks. She wasn’t good enough. Possibly could have got the likes of Central -we don’t know, though. But she was sure at that point that if she went there, she wouldn’t make it as a classical ballet dancer. She didn’t apply to any vocational schools, ever. It was only when she started auditioning for jobs that we realised it could work out.

[Kerfuffle]

@rowanit’s so interesting to hear how your daughter made it to being a professional without attending upper or vocational school. How many hours was she doing weekly when she was 16+, were they one to one and with others? Did she do her A Levels during this time? I guess that her teachers were Russian and had a good idea that she was capable of being successful? Has she got a very classical physique - I have been told this makes a big difference in auditions? Sorry about the amount of questions I’m just really interested to know as it’s rare to hear this sort of journey. 
 

 

[glowlight]

This question has been going round in my head quite a bit, so apologies for changing the subject...

 

With regard to the current Y9 cohort at RBS, if there are only 2 British girls going into Y10 - what happens to all the MDS awards?  I presume that the overseas students aren't eligible to receive MDS?  So are the unused funds knocking around somewhere?

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

2 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

@rowanit’s so interesting to hear how your daughter made it to being a professional without attending upper or vocational school. How many hours was she doing weekly when she was 16+, were they one to one and with others? Did she do her A Levels during this time? I guess that her teachers were Russian and had a good idea that she was capable of being successful? Has she got a very classical physique - I have been told this makes a big difference in auditions? Sorry about the amount of questions I’m just really interested to know as it’s rare to hear this sort of journey. 
 

 

I too am very interested in this because it must be a struggle trying to fit in dance hours when attending high school/secondary school.  Some of the recent dancers I’ve seen who have been offered places in top European schools were home schooled so they can squeeze the hours in and I know some of the most in demand private coaches can only offer availability within normal school hours. This to us was a non-negotiable, for personal reasons, we always prioritised academics above all other activities. This is not just my decision as a parent but my DD in herself would never want to miss a day of school or even finish school a few days early for the summer to attend summer intensives (this is why we had to turn down US SI offers - most start very early, either June or early July). From experience we find it very hard to squeeze in dancing during the week hence my DD can only do two classes within the week. School work takes around 2 hours a night, and due to after school activities and sports she doesn’t get home early. We know this is nowhere near the hours her peers do in a week but thankfully she has no intentions of auditioning for full time (at the moment). But should she change her mind, I’m pretty sure it will be impossible to get the required training in especially as they go up the years and you’re against internationals who have extensive and intensive training.

[Kerfuffle]

I don’t know how this works beyond 16 as we aren’t there yet but I feel that with my daughter she is getting good quality ballet lessons most days and this is what matters. If she was at boarding school I think the most important lesson would be the ballet one, which is where the technique is refined. Character pas de deux are great but they won’t be assessed in any US audition. I think this is enough for now but correct me if this is wrong anyone out there! She is approaching GCSE year and has always managed her school work - she agrees it’s very important. She says that having limited time helps her focus and she’s very organised as a result. Personally I wish that she could continue both at a high level but as it is here I feel like she’s going to have to put her academics on hold. If we were in Europe or USA it would be different - she could do both.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

18 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I don’t know how this works beyond 16 as we aren’t there yet but I feel that with my daughter she is getting good quality ballet lessons most days and this is what matters. If she was at boarding school I think the most important lesson would be the ballet one, which is where the technique is refined. Character pas de deux are great but they won’t be assessed in any US audition. I think this is enough for now but correct me if this is wrong anyone out there! She is approaching GCSE year and has always managed her school work - she agrees it’s very important. She says that having limited time helps her focus and she’s very organised as a result. Personally I wish that she could continue both at a high level but as it is here I feel like she’s going to have to put her academics on hold. If we were in Europe or USA it would be different - she could do both.

You’re right, I don’t think character pas de deux is in any US audition. However, do try and squeeze contemporary in if she doesn’t yet. I know this can make a difference in being noticed when auditioning for upper schools.  I know some ballet teachers (not all!) underestimate the importance of contemporary but it can spell that difference especially when they can pick up choreo quickly. In an audition where most if not all have lovely ballet technique, those who are good, comfortable and natural at contemporary stand out.  Note that a lot of local dance schools offer “contemporary” that in reality is more lyrical/jazz/acro/tricks. We have found it hard to source contemporary classes/lessons that is more aligned with the contemporary that upper schools look for.

[rowan]

No, her classes were always group classes, never one to one, and there was a vocational stream. In her teens, she was one of the weaker members of the ballet group for years.  Instead of three years that is normal at an upper school in the U.K., she took four years post-16 doing academics and ballet and a part-time job, so she was older than most graduating ballet students. But as lots of ballet students now seem to do a post-grad year or junior company, that seemed not to matter much. Yes, she has a very classical-looking physique, but has weak points too that she really has to work on. I wouldn’t focus on physique as an issue - as I said, you can be “too classical”, and that can be disadvantageous when looking for jobs. Yes, her teachers were either Russian or from former Soviet bloc countries. They don’t work any more, so the system that DD trained under isn’t available. DD happened to be there at the right time.

You don’t need to be super good at 14 or 16. No one’s hiring children.

Why it worked for us was the frequency and quality of classes and that it was close by and they offered bursaries and scholarships. DD could come home from school, do two-three hours of ballet an evening, and most of Saturday. She got all A, A* in all GCSEs and A levels. 
 

We didn’t expect DD to make it. It was a slightly all-too-consuming hobby. Still, yet again, I’d say be careful what you wish for. Easier said than done, but best not put all your heart and soul into ballet. I’ve said it endlessly on this forum before -if you send your child to vocational school from age 11, best regard it as a normal school that specialises in dance. And keep in mind that most children accepted won’t make it as a classical ballet dancer. That applies to any vocational school in the world. 

[NotadanceMa]

@rowanit’s so refreshing to hear from a parent of a dancing child that has taken the other route. Even though I understand that for your daughter it wasn’t  a route as such just what you happened to decide to do. 

Thankyou for your openness it is really interesting.

Was your daughter’s school in London, you might have already said; my child was in pre-voc in a Russian school but they closed their pre-voc and vocational training down when the pandemic hit. This was the path my child and I very much intended to take. The training was good, tough, but good and solid and they loved the school. For us we didn’t find anything as good overall as what they offered, plus for us like you there was financial assistance and scholarships offered from the school which are nearly impossible to find post-pandemic. Also there were really good performance opportunities. They offered my child a scholarship for their vocational training when they auditioned for the AD. Sadly and I am gutted but they are gone now. It was a rare find with my limited knowledge of ballet training, but my child loved it. They would have been starting there on vocational training this September. I think it is the same school, if it is I am not at all surprised that your daughter has done well. 
 

The full-time vocational training where they are now is very different.

 

[rowan]

I will say that DD is now at the stage of pulling away from ballet. She had her contract renewed for the third time but isn’t going to continue. She has danced professionally full time in good companies with good  conditions and wages for four-five years, mainly corps but some soloist roles. Whether you think that is a decent amount of time, it’s hard to tell. Many of her friends lasted much less. I once read that the average life of a dancer (not sure if that’s ballet specific or not) was seven years. I have been on this forum for many years and I always said when the end was in sight, I would say. And here it is.

[Pas de Quatre]

Actually rowan I think that is pretty much the norm, so congratulatons to your DD for achieving a performing career and I wish her well in the next stage of her life.  

[rowan]

Thanks @Pas de Quatre

Sorry, I didn’t mean to hijack the thread! 

 

[Kerfuffle]

Hi @rowan thank you for sharing your daughter’s journey and best of luck to her as she starts something new. I was out in London yesterday so had to preserve my phone battery. Taking in mind your advice on contemporary training where can you find this? My DD did lots of modern/jazz and always did well in these so I tend to think she’s got an an adequate experience in these. She looks very classical but can turn her hand to other genres such as tap too. Her Russian style school doesn’t offer contemporary except at intensives. I think she’s very quick at learning combinations so I hope that’s enough! 

[rowan]

@Kerfuffle

I’m afraid I can’t help re contemporary. DD did all her classes at her dance school. She didn’t do any master classes or SIs. Well, she did the week summer course in her mid-teens once at Elmhurst and once at ENBS. But that was it. Nothing abroad. I’m a bit -very - woolly on the distinctions between contemporary, modern ballet and neoclassical ballet. She was offered jobs in modern ballet companies and neoclassical companies, so what she had was enough for those, but she definitely felt contemporary per se was a weaker area for her. She danced in Balanchine ballets, and newly choreographed works, as well as the traditional classics, so was OK for those too. 
 

As an aside, I wouldn’t necessarily focus on the Russian method as being the be-all and end-all - ie, learn that and you’ll be successful. To me, there seems to be a bit of a craze going on. It doesn’t work like that. Loads of Russian-method-trained dancers aren’t successful either. There just aren’t anywhere near enough jobs to go round.

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Taking in mind your advice on contemporary training where can you find this? 

 

 

 

https://www.theplace.org.uk/whats-on/teen-contemporary-15

 

[Kerfuffle]

Thank you @Jan McNultyfor that. @rowan My daughter does RBS senior associates and took RAD intermediate but there isn’t anything that challenges her where we live as much as her present Russian school. They are by far the most connected with the industry and have really given her so much more in ballet. I know there are excellent teachers out there in all styles but this happens to be the best on offer where we live. She has done neo classical ballet as well as the classics and gets on very well with those which I would guess are somewhere between classical and contemporary. 

[drdance]

I've read this thread with interest! I'd like to bring it back to the initial questions that came up, if I may, which seems to be "is it better to have intense training [hot housed] before age 14 or not?"

 

My thoughts around this lead me to another question, one that I have asked before. That is "what does success look like?" Is success a place at an upper school? Is success a job in a ballet company? Is success a long career dancing? Is success a life-long love of dance?

 

I think we have to look at the answer to this question, before we can answer the initial question. Having read / studied / researched a lot, it is my educated opinion that children who are currently dancing at an advanced or professional level before the end of adolescence are unlikely to have long dance careers. There may be the odd anomaly here or there, but I don't believe it is possible for the human body and mind to cope with that intensive amount of wear and tear without consequence. But it might be what is required in order to compete for places at upper schools or get employment. It is a dilemma for some parents, while other parents will not be so concerned with something that feels a long way into the future.

 

The debate will rage on, but I think that what is important to remember, is your ultimate goal or wishes for your child.