Adult Ballet as an Absolute Beginner

[Alexander]

Not sure if this helps but I'll share - it's something I've struggled with. That is, I allow sessions where I absolutely suck. I can be the crappiest, rubbish dancer or fencer ever. But, and this is a house rule, I have to find one or two things that I liked, that was new, that felt good or that improved even if they seem small or minor.

 

I really have a love hate realtionship with relevees.. too quick, feet all over the place and it is not, in any sense Baroque. Nasty, nasty relevees. Its just one bundle of nervous twitching. But over time I find small things get better, slowly. I make a wee correction here or there - not the whole thing but focusing on one part of the exercise slowly builds.

[Tango Dancer]

19 minutes ago, Angela Essex said:

Wow a masterclass with Marianela and Alejandro 😍😍😍😍 I can but dream I’d ever be that good. I’d be so star struck to be on the same zoom call as them 😮😮😮. What were they like in real life? Please do share details. 

 

 

They were lovely people and she shines like the star she is.  I did find the class rather difficult because for some reason the sequences they were setting didn't work for me.  I think some of it was that they were quite long and intricate and I couldn't always understand how to get from A to B.  A complicating factor was that there was quite a lot of "do this then pivot and do it at this angle" which I struggled to work out what that meant when viewed on zoom for the way I was facing.  This is no criticism of them but more that it was too advanced a class for my ability to the degree I was finding it frustrating rather than a fun challenge.  So I stopped, patted myself on the back for trying and then made coffee.  As they say in the gambling adverts "when the fun stops, stop". 

 

I did one with Vadim Muntagirov online 2 weeks earlier and that went better for me because for some reason his way of explaining and setting exercises clicked with me and I could see what he wanted far more easily and the way he explained things made sense.  So despite the class being too advanced in technique terms I got a lot out of it.  He's incredibly gorgeous, modest, charming and has the loveliest smile as well as impossibly perfect turnout.  (I have a major crush on him).  

 

Both classes were allegedly billed as intermediate but Vadim's teaching style and approach worked much better for me than Marianela's.  A different dancer would have a different opinion.   Danceworks run these occasional workshops with different leading professional dancers as part of their masterclass programme if you want to try them.  They're online and in studio.  I'd only do them online with the camera off so nobody can see me flailing around.  The level in studio is much higher.  

[Alexander]

On the memory thing, my instructor shared a story of famous ballerina (Fonteyn?). Anyway, story goes my instructor who knew a dancer who practiced with Fonteyn who insisted they always stood at the barre in front of her. This went on for a long period. Anyway at some point, the dancer asked Fonteyn why she, being so much an accomplished dancer insisted on this? The answer was that she forgot the sequences and wanted someone to follow and remind her what to do.

 

Yeh, I know, ballet is probably littered with these stories but sort of gives the permission to be forgetful.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Alexander

[Alexander]

14 minutes ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

.. but Vadim's teaching style and approach worked much better for me than Marianela's. 

 

Yes, the chemistry between instructor and student I find important. Some I don't get on with at all: nope, not doing that, not ever. Sorry, not happening, going on strike. Did you say something?

[NJH]

1 hour ago, Angela Essex said:

Hello NJH and thank you for your reply. I am very grateful for your suggestion and have found that David Kierce does an absolute beginners class - hooray! Sadly the only one I can get to is Central and even then only alternate Sundays due to kids & work. I’m not sure what the etiquette is about not attending every class once you join a class? Would the teacher be a bit put out by that? maybe I could message him and see if he minds me going alternate weeks. 
 

I feel like I need to go on a crash course for a weekend or something just to get the basics sorted. If anyone knows of such a thing for beginners please do share the details 🙏🙏🙏

David's classes  are  PAYG  - all the Central classes are PAYG ...  
there is no etiquette  aobut  attendance or not of  of PAYG classes - yes they have their  regulars  , t yes that  have peopel who do not attend  every  week, yess thy have people who drop in once in a blue moon because they are in the The Smoke  ( as I have done with David's classes in the past - I do so far less now  primarily because i think other teachers suit me and my  place in my ballet journey  better).

Not sure of  crash courses for beginners , although  it has been something that has been suggested to Hannah B after a few  TBR participants  have struggled  because of the l way in which the levle of  daily  class   etc  at TBR has crept upwards over the past 5 years ( becasue quite a few of the  TBR regulars  are the same regulars as 4 or 5 years ago ) 

[NJH]

48 minutes ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

They were lovely people and she shines like the star she is.  I did find the class rather difficult because for some reason the sequences they were setting didn't work for me.  I think some of it was that they were quite long and intricate and I couldn't always understand how to get from A to B.  A complicating factor was that there was quite a lot of "do this then pivot and do it at this angle" which I struggled to work out what that meant when viewed on zoom for the way I was facing.  This is no criticism of them but more that it was too advanced a class for my ability to the degree I was finding it frustrating rather than a fun challenge.  So I stopped, patted myself on the back for trying and then made coffee.  As they say in the gambling adverts "when the fun stops, stop". 

 

I did one with Vadim Muntagirov online 2 weeks earlier and that went better for me because for some reason his way of explaining and setting exercises clicked with me and I could see what he wanted far more easily and the way he explained things made sense.  So despite the class being too advanced in technique terms I got a lot out of it.  He's incredibly gorgeous, modest, charming and has the loveliest smile as well as impossibly perfect turnout.  (I have a major crush on him).  

 

Both classes were allegedly billed as intermediate but Vadim's teaching style and approach worked much better for me than Marianela's.  A different dancer would have a different opinion.   Danceworks run these occasional workshops with different leading professional dancers as part of their masterclass programme if you want to try them.  They're online and in studio.  I'd only do them online with the camera off so nobody can see me flailing around.  The level in studio is much higher.  

intermediate or Intermediate?   Intermediate is a VERY loaded term in the  anglosphere of ballet

 while not  the Inter syllabus , most  Intermediate classes at Danceworks / Pineapple and Central   need a similar levle of  experience and  sold  core knowledge of  technique and vocab 

https://www.agirlreconstructed.com/2019/02/capitalising-i.html
 

[Angela Essex]

27 minutes ago, Alexander said:

 

Yes, the chemistry between instructor and student I find important. Some I don't get on with at all: nope, not doing that, not ever. Sorry, not happening, going on strike. Did you say something?

😂😂😂😂 Lol hilarious this was me in the last 15 mins of class last night. I literally shut the laptop lid in a massive strop 15 mins early which I’d ordinarily never dream of doing. It was so out of character for me. I still feel awful for not staying to the end and thanking the teacher for the class. I literally feel like a bad human being 😭

 

1 minute ago, NJH said:

David's classes  are  PAYG  - all the Central classes are PAYG ...  
there is no etiquette  aobut  attendance or not of  of PAYG classes - yes they have their  regulars  , t yes that  have peopel who do not attend  every  week, yess thy have people who drop in once in a blue moon because they are in the The Smoke  ( as I have done with David's classes in the past - I do so far less now  primarily because i think other teachers suit me and my  place in my ballet journey  better).

Not sure of  crash courses for beginners , although  it has been something that has been suggested to Hannah B after a few  TBR participants  have struggled  because of the l way in which the levle of  daily  class   etc  at TBR has crept upwards over the past 5 years ( becasue quite a few of the  TBR regulars  are the same regulars as 4 or 5 years ago ) 

Fab that’s a done deal then. I’m going to his Sunday Central class at my soonest possibility. Thank you 🙏 

 

Is TBR the ballet retreat? I googled it but no beginners retreats are on there. Fingers crossed they will do one ASAP. 

[Tango Dancer]

3 minutes ago, NJH said:

intermediate or Intermediate?   Intermediate is a VERY loaded term in the  anglosphere of ballet

 while not  the Inter syllabus , most  Intermediate classes at Danceworks / Pineapple and Central   need a similar level of  experience and  sold  core knowledge of  technique and vocab 

https://www.agirlreconstructed.com/2019/02/capitalising-i.html
 

 

In this case Danceworks say the following of their masterclasses:

 

In-studio (limited numbers) for dancers of intermediate level+, age 14+. Online for all levels and ages.

 

I'd not consider myself intermediate+ so I'd never do the class in studio because that would be embarrassing.  On the other hand I am quite happy to do it online and see how much of it I can keep up with, knowing that I may not succeed at it.  

[Angela Essex]

56 minutes ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

They were lovely people and she shines like the star she is.  I did find the class rather difficult because for some reason the sequences they were setting didn't work for me.  I think some of it was that they were quite long and intricate and I couldn't always understand how to get from A to B.  A complicating factor was that there was quite a lot of "do this then pivot and do it at this angle" which I struggled to work out what that meant when viewed on zoom for the way I was facing.  This is no criticism of them but more that it was too advanced a class for my ability to the degree I was finding it frustrating rather than a fun challenge.  So I stopped, patted myself on the back for trying and then made coffee.  As they say in the gambling adverts "when the fun stops, stop". 

 

I did one with Vadim Muntagirov online 2 weeks earlier and that went better for me because for some reason his way of explaining and setting exercises clicked with me and I could see what he wanted far more easily and the way he explained things made sense.  So despite the class being too advanced in technique terms I got a lot out of it.  He's incredibly gorgeous, modest, charming and has the loveliest smile as well as impossibly perfect turnout.  (I have a major crush on him).  

 

Both classes were allegedly billed as intermediate but Vadim's teaching style and approach worked much better for me than Marianela's.  A different dancer would have a different opinion.   Danceworks run these occasional workshops with different leading professional dancers as part of their masterclass programme if you want to try them.  They're online and in studio.  I'd only do them online with the camera off so nobody can see me flailing around.  The level in studio is much higher.  

Thanks heaps for sharing. I couldn’t even put myself on the same zoom call as Vadim or Marianela - maybe in 10 years time. Yes I saw Vadim’s little you tube video ‘A Month in the Country’ with his parents. He’s so lovely, but my main crush is on Marianela, oh and her ex husband Thiago 😍😍😍😍 I’m a straight married woman but still 😂😂😂. Definitely might knock Daniel Craig in Casino Royale off his top spot in my celebrity crush league table 😂

[Alexander]

"Intermediate" covers a wide spectrum. I may be practiced or proficient at some things but thoroughly agricultural at other things.

 

And I think sometimes we may confuse fundamentals with "beginners". For me, I can't get enough of fundamentals. There is always room to practice and polish something fundamental, even a plie.

[Kate_N]

11 hours ago, Angela Essex said:

with all new combos to do I was really struggling. I am okay with being the worst person in every single class I attend as hopefully with some hard work I will improve

 

Awww, so sorry you feel like that - we all know the feeling. My professional dancing family member said to me once, that sometimes class is just medicine. You have to take it, even if it's nasty, because you'll get better in the long run.

 

You could keep going, but just turn off your Zoom camera? 

 

It sounds like you need to find a class where you sign up for a series, rather than the open drop-in classes. Could you ask at local ballet studios if you could do class alongside children? I know that sounds weird, and you'd probably need an enhanced DBS check (or whatever they're called now) but you would get the basics, slow & steady. 

 

In London there are several places which offer a termly enrolment, for regular & steady learning - City Lit, and RAD, from memory. Would it be possible to enrol in one of those in the New Year?

Edited December 23, 2021 by Kate_N

[Alexander]

"improver" may be more useful term. Or, as I like to put, know enough to get myself in trouble very quickly with limited excuses.

[Kate_N]

1 hour ago, Tango Dancer said:

Both classes were allegedly billed as intermediate but Vadim's teaching style and approach worked much better for me than Marianela's.  A different dancer would have a different opinion. 

 

This is really interesting @Tango Dancer and gives me heart for Zooming in to the Danceworks Masterclasses.

 

As I get older (I'm in my early 60s) I find that as my body is less malleable, I seek out teachers from whom I can find new things to learn. SO I'm not interested in just doing any old class - I like to learn from teachers who can teach me new or more logical ways of working.  

 

It's hard to describe, but what you say about Mr Muntagirov is sort of what I look for in trying out new classes, new teachers.

 

[Tango Dancer]

22 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

This is really interesting @Tango Dancer and gives me heart for Zooming in to the Danceworks Masterclasses.

 

As I get older (I'm in my early 60s) I find that as my body is less malleable, I seek out teachers from whom I can find new things to learn. SO I'm not interested in just doing any old class - I like to learn from teachers who can teach me new or more logical ways of working.  

 

It's hard to describe, but what you say about Mr Muntagirov is sort of what I look for in trying out new classes, new teachers.

 

 

His style worked for me quite well.  I think it was because I could see each exercise building on the previous one and he had a fairly logical structure and way of explaining things and why the body worked the way it did and some of the things he'd learnt over the years.  I like clear structures and a good verbal explanation of what to do before I start the exercise with comment after the first side so it suited me.  I think if you're more intuitive and less analytical then it might be less ideal.

   

I'm always loathe to recommend people particular classes because everyone likes a different thing in their teachers but I would definitely take class with him again. I probably wouldn't take another one with Marianela, although I think she's an amazing dancer and I can watch her for hours, because her teaching style didn't click with me.  

 

I view the Danceworks masterclasses as like a tombola.  You don't know what you're going to get from the virtual tombola box so it's basically potluck whether it's going to work for you or not. 

[Fiz]

Angela, as you go on, you will discover that ballet is like that. One class can leave you feeling destroyed and another as if you are dancing on air. It will get better, believe me. 

[Angela Essex]

10 minutes ago, Fiz said:

Angela, as you go on, you will discover that ballet is like that. One class can leave you feeling destroyed and another as if you are dancing on air. It will get better, believe me. 

Thank you that’s good to know. At least it’s not only me 🙏

[Meetmeatthebarre]

2 hours ago, Tango Dancer said:

Both classes were allegedly billed as intermediate but Vadim's teaching style and approach worked much better for me than Marianela's.  A different dancer would have a different opinion.   Danceworks run these occasional workshops with different leading professional dancers as part of their masterclass programme if you want to try them.  They're online and in studio.  I'd only do them online with the camera off so nobody can see me flailing around.  The level in studio is much higher.  

 

Teaching style aside, what did you think of the level of Marianela's class compared to Vad's? A friend and I bit the bullet and took Vad's class in-studio. We found the level perfect - "hard enough to improve, but I didn't want to cry" hehe - though of course there were far more advanced dancers there too. I unfortunately missed the Marianela classes last weekend for my booster

[Alexander]

You people are wanting me to seek out some Zoom classes....

[Tango Dancer]

21 minutes ago, Meetmeatthebarre said:

 

Teaching style aside, what did you think of the level of Marianela's class compared to Vad's? A friend and I bit the bullet and took Vad's class in-studio. We found the level perfect - "hard enough to improve, but I didn't want to cry" hehe - though of course there were far more advanced dancers there too. I unfortunately missed the Marianela classes last weekend for my booster

 

I thought hers was harder but that's not an objective assessment.  I would rate his as "difficult but I can understand and follow 90% of barre and most of centre adjusting for space constraints in my tiny lounge" and hers was "this is really hard and I need to stop now before I hurt myself."  

[NJH]

2 hours ago, Alexander said:

"improver" may be more useful term. Or, as I like to put, know enough to get myself in trouble very quickly with limited excuses.

due to the Loaded meaning of Intermediate  in ballet, what other activties might call  intermediate is  Improvers  in Ballet

[NJH]

2 hours ago, Angela Essex said:

😂😂😂😂 Lol hilarious this was me in the last 15 mins of class last night. I literally shut the laptop lid in a massive strop 15 mins early which I’d ordinarily never dream of doing. It was so out of character for me. I still feel awful for not staying to the end and thanking the teacher for the class. I literally feel like a bad human being 😭

 

Fab that’s a done deal then. I’m going to his Sunday Central class at my soonest possibility. Thank you 🙏 

 

Is TBR the ballet retreat? I googled it but no beginners retreats are on there. Fingers crossed they will do one ASAP. 

yes it is   www.theballetretreat.com  

in my opinion as someone who has danced with TBR  for over  4years  , i'd say the first  couple i did   i was probably  struggling   to keep up with a lot of , but  since I've  find  it  really good  and  been able to push myself and be pushed  by  the team and the  rest of the TBR family ...   

there's various  things that the TBR family have suggested to Hannah   but the past 2 years have messed that  up somewhat . 

[NJH]

1 hour ago, Fiz said:

Angela, as you go on, you will discover that ballet is like that. One class can leave you feeling destroyed and another as if you are dancing on air. It will get better, believe me. 

and teachers and other dancers in the class  may have a different  view of  how that class went for you...  

a  constant   and repetitive  theme is that   dancers of whatever levle  and experience are always hard on themselves

 

[Angela Essex]

2 hours ago, Kate_N said:

 

Awww, so sorry you feel like that - we all know the feeling. My professional dancing family member said to me once, that sometimes class is just medicine. You have to take it, even if it's nasty, because you'll get better in the long run.

 

You could keep going, but just turn off your Zoom camera? 

 

It sounds like you need to find a class where you sign up for a series, rather than the open drop-in classes. Could you ask at local ballet studios if you could do class alongside children? I know that sounds weird, and you'd probably need an enhanced DBS check (or whatever they're called now) but you would get the basics, slow & steady. 

 

In London there are several places which offer a termly enrolment, for regular & steady learning - City Lit, and RAD, from memory. Would it be possible to enrol in one of those in the New Year?

Thank you Kate I’ll check out City Lit. I did check out RAD, but from memory I don’t think I could do any of the times they were offering. I don’t think my current dance school would allow an adult to do child classes as they already do 2 adult classes a week. I might ask my teacher if she can do some private lessons with me though so I can get the basics sorted. 

[LinMM]

I can definitely recommend Alexander Simpkins classes at City Lit. 
His beginners classes are on Tuesdays and he has two running on the same night so in theory you could probably get to the later one unless you have flexible working hours of course. I think one starts around 6.15 and the other around 8pm though these only “about”times. You do have to sign for the course usually 12 sessions per term but it is what it says on the box a beginners class. 
He also does a barre only class on a Tuesday from 5-6pm which is a sort of Improvers bar level and his Improvers class is on Thursdays and is around grade 4-5 level I would say certainly not Intermediate but I wish he would give an Intermediate class! 
What you might find fun by July/August  is he always runs a series of summer evening workshops usually 2 hours each leaning some choreography from a ballet but simplified where need be. 
Last summer we focussed on La Sylphide and had fun doing a bit of the Corps work and playing at being Madge the Witch!! 
The ability in these summer courses is very mixed from those fairly new to ballet and some who’ve been at it for years lol!! 
 

Ballet always goes up and down ....you have these classes where everything seems to slot together and you think oh that wasn’t bad at all and feel quite pleased with yourself and the World but then on other occasions can’t seem to get a thing right 😱 and think why do I go to all these ballet classes I’m no good anyway 😩

Usually it’s somewhere between these two extremes. 
It’s sort of similar to learning the piano. 
I had this experience last summer of going in to practice and without even a warm up went straight to the piece learning and played it perfectly even the bars  I usually messed up. 
However just a couple of hours later in the actual lesson was dismayed to find I didn’t immediately repeat this experience....when other people plus teacher were watching of course!!! And made a right mess of it again. 

It is occasionally nice to look back at pieces you learned a couple of years back and then you wonder why you struggled with it quite so much at the time ....so you do make progress but it can be rather slower than you want it to be 🙄

Ballet is similar a year from now you will feel the progress you’ve made. 
 

When I’m not injured I’d say I was a good Intermediate level in Ballet but wouldn’t be seen dead in either Marienela or Vadim’s classes!!!!  No way José 

I think it could be a bit disheartening for a beginner to join these video off or not.

 

When you do get to a difficult bit you could always aim to do just the first half of it and try to get that bit looking okayish rather than giving up completely.  
A similar strategy as when you are injured ..you do the bits you can and either walk through or leave the bits you can’t. Even just doing the arms and body placement can be helpful sometimes!! 

 

[Kate_N]

36 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I can definitely recommend Alexander Simpkins classes at City Lit

 

I've never taken class from him, but I've been in the same class with him a fair bit (pre-pandemic!) and watching him dance (beautiful technique and an easy way of moving) and seeing his demeanour in class - really kind, making space, encouraging smiles to other dancers in the class - I imagine he'd be a wonderful teacher!

[Colman]

I wouldn't put an absolute beginner in almost any workshops/masterclasses because they'd just be confused, but anyone working reasonably seriously  for a year or two should be able to get something from any of the ones that are aimed at adults: they generally aim at a mixed ability level because otherwise they'd never make up the numbers enough to make it worthwhile. 

 

I have a theory that "grown-ups" are really bad at being beginners. We don't expect to be clueless and incompetent and we get upset and discouraged when progress is slow when we've chosen to do hard things. Ballet is really hard, that's what makes it fun, even when it's not.

 

I've been doing ballet now for seven years, which I figure makes me roughly equivalent to a not especially talented ten year old with added knee crack sound effects.

 

Zoom is hard, learning centre work on Zoom is really hard and learning anything involving turning and changing directions on Zoom is extremely hard. All we can do is our best. 

[Alexander]

Being a adult can bring certain expectations with lots of oughts and shoulds. I did it last week, why can't I do it this week? I was shown how to do it therefore I must be able to do it now and do it perfectly. Sports psychology has some interesting insights into this this like the Inner Game of Tennis or Martin Peter's critical chimp.

[LinMM]

Thanks Kate he is a really nice person and teacher always a joy to do his classes. 
I Have been plagued by injury this term but would love him to teach a more Advanced class. The summer courses ....separate from the terms course so you can book separately even if you don’t normally attend his regular classes.... are great fun and there’s always a lovely atmosphere. 
Just to add Colman when I said fairly new to ballet I meant those who’ve done at least a year though most have done more of course! 
Last summer we learned quite a lot of mime from La Sylphide as were in twos acting out scenes between Madge and James! And bought in a few props to help! 
We also learned two bits of corps work ...the lively wedding dance sequence ( in ballet where everyone wears kilts) and a bit of Sylph corps work. 

[NJH]

3 hours ago, Colman said:

I wouldn't put an absolute beginner in almost any workshops/masterclasses because they'd just be confused, but anyone working reasonably seriously  for a year or two should be able to get something from any of the ones that are aimed at adults: they generally aim at a mixed ability level because otherwise they'd never make up the numbers enough to make it worthwhile. 

 

I have a theory that "grown-ups" are really bad at being beginners. We don't expect to be clueless and incompetent and we get upset and discouraged when progress is slow when we've chosen to do hard things. Ballet is really hard, that's what makes it fun, even when it's not.

 

I've been doing ballet now for seven years, which I figure makes me roughly equivalent to a not especially talented ten year old with added knee crack sound effects.

 

Zoom is hard, learning centre work on Zoom is really hard and learning anything involving turning and changing directions on Zoom is extremely hard. All we can do is our best. 

this is spades... 

[Colman]

2 hours ago, LinMM said:

Just to add Colman when I said fairly new to ballet I meant those who’ve done at least a year though most have done more of course! 

 

I wasn't taking issue with that at all, just the idea (suggested elsewhere) that one might need to get really good before doing a workshop with famous dancers - if in doubt, ask the organiser about the level required. I know of at least one organiser who has advertised the level higher than needed to discourage non-dancing fans from signing up for a particular workshop in order to swoon but was quite happy with relatively inexperienced dancers. 

[Angela Essex]

15 hours ago, Colman said:

I've been doing ballet now for seven years, which I figure makes me roughly equivalent to a not especially talented ten year old with added knee crack effects.

Thank you for replying Colman. This is a really good perspective for me to remember. I’ve not even been doing this a year so if I was a kid I’d probably still be skipping around the room and doing ‘good toes, naughty toes’.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Angela Essex

[Kate_N]

17 hours ago, Colman said:

I have a theory that "grown-ups" are really bad at being beginners. We don't expect to be clueless and incompetent and we get upset and discouraged when progress is slow when we've chosen to do hard things.

so so true! I’m at the top of my field in my job, and one of the reasons I love doing ballet class is that I’m still learning and I’m not tops at ballet - it keeps me humble!
 

also, @Angela Essexyou say you worry about people watching and judging.

 

a) as others say, we’re all too busy focusing on ourselves!
 

and

 

b) I love watching others dance in the centre(when I’m waiting for my turn) - most adult dancers have something they do well which makes them a pleasure to watch. 

[Colman]

25 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

most adult dancers have something they do well which makes them a pleasure to watch. 

Almost everyone is their own worst critic: I’m recovering from an injury so I sat out centre in the last class of term.  Watching my wife dancing I was ready to tell her that she’d danced really nicely. She came out in a stinker of a

mood because she’d done so badly in centre. 🤷🏻‍♂️