Conservatism and access to the arts

[aileen]

I've wondered why ballet audiences in Britain seem to be more conservative than those in other countries. Would anyone like to offer an opinion?

 

 

 

EDIT: This thread was branched off from discussion in the Royal Ballet "Four Temperaments" bill thread here: http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/9286-the-royal-ballet-four-temperaments-mixed-bill-marchapril-2015/page-5#entry125445

Edited April 2, 2015 by alison

[MAB]

Aileen, I don't think they are.  If you want to see conservative go to Russia.

[Ann Williams]

More conservative than  even the New York ballet audiences, Aileen?   They still haven't quite forgiven Peter Martins for not being George Balanchine and they seem to hate Kenneth MacMillan's work, presumably because quite a lot of it deals with sex, violence and other human realities. (To be fair, it's getting better as a new young ballet audience emerges).

[Fonty]

Do the same issues arise when talking about the other art form which takes up a lot of time at the Royal Opera House?

 

Do opera audiences want new, innovative operas that will attract a wider, or younger audience?  Or are they happy with the tried and trusted?

 

I know nothing about opera, BTW.  Last one I went to was in 1983, or thereabouts. 

[Lindsay]

I would say that the UK (and the US to an even greater degree because of the almost total absence of public funding) are more conservative in their approach to contemporary classical music and to opera than European countries.  For example, Germany benefits from federal support for the arts, which means that even medium-sized provincial cities have their symphony, their opera house and their ballet company.  At generously subsidised prices, audiences are far more willing to support their local arts organisations, become subscribers and try new work and there is not the same "social mystique" around attendance at opera, ballet or concerts.  

 

I don't wish to reopen the debate about how we all wear jeans to the ROH now but I do get frustrated by the British social fear of appearing "arty-farty" and the sneering disdain for "intellectuals", which CC's attitude typifies.  I have encountered music students at several higher education institutions in London and, without exception, the overseas students attend far more performances and listen to more music than their British counterparts.  I find it astonishing that even when deals like ROH Student Standby (or similar schemes run by all the major classical music venues) are pointed out to them by their lecturers, in relation to an opera or symphony that forms part of their course of study, most UK students will still not attend, even when they are studying to be musicians.  It is embarrassing when the best written work often comes from students who do not have English as their first language but have a far wider range of cultural experiences and references and are more prepared to read "difficult" books and articles and engage with critical debate.   

 

MAB makes a very good point about Russia though - audiences there are the most hidebound of all, in relation to classical music as well as ballet.

[A frog]

Thank you Angela, that is the post I was thinking about.

 

Fonty, opera (and classical music) audiences in London seem to me just as conservative if not more. Not so much in their refusal to embrace contemporary works, but also in how unpopular anything a little off the beaten track ends up being. I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but the two examples that come to mind are the performance of Die Tote Stadt in Covent Garden a few years ago, it was the first time the work was shown in London I believe, tickets were comparatively cheap, and yet they had to be discounted and I sadly don't expect the opera to be shown again any day soon given how poorly attended it was. And in case anyone wonders how modern it is, it's where the rather famous recital encore staple "Marietta's Lied" comes from. My other example which I found rather telling was a visit by the Vienna Philharmonic a few years ago, the programme was Brahms, a Brahms quartet orchestrated by Schoenberg and some early Schoenberg (from his post-Romantic days), it wasn't sold out, which is more than surprising for one of their concerts, the only explanation I could think of was that the idea of listening to even 25 minutes of Schoenberg was that much of a deterrent, even though in this specific case there was nothing atonal about it.

 

MAB, McGregor might be the house choreographer, but he still only has a new piece per season, with occasionally one revival as well; and while the run wasn't amazingly successful (though it was quite a few performances and the auditorium is bigger), POB commissioned him for a full-evening length work before the RB did.

 

I don't really know why that is, but I would think class or rather perceptions of have to play a role, as well as how culture is viewed by society in general (my favourite point of comparison between the UK and France is that here politicians however improbably will try to make as many references as possible to popular culture, in France Sarkozy was shamed for his apparent disdain of the classics and anything cultural, to the point that he course corrected a few years into his presidency and then started mentioning Proust or Celine as often as he could (it must have taken him a while to read them as he pretty much repeatedly only mentioned four books over a couple of years)).

Edited April 1, 2015 by A frog

[MAB]

Actually frog, I'm off to see McGregor's L'Anatomie de la sensation in Paris in July and being perhaps more of an opera buff than a balletomane, the following day I'm seeing Adriana Lecouvreur in the afternoon and Alceste in the evening.

 

I remember seeing  Die Tote Stadt from the stalls so yes, it must have been sold at bargain prices.  On the other hand I saw the first performance of Minotaur and that got a reviva a couple of years laterl.  I've only been to a premier opera production in Europe once, at the Garnier in Paris, it was a new production of Handel's Ariodante and to my amazement it was roundly booed and the production wasn't what I would call avant garde, though it was original and imaginative.   British audiences really aren't that hidebound, but surely the ability to enjoy a wide range of genres has to be down to education.

[A frog]

I hope you enjoy it MAB, I went twice on its first run and found it one of his better works (and very reassuring shortly after Live Fire Exercise which I hadn't liked very much), the company was really well suited to his style and I almost felt that he dared more than he normally does with the RB.

 

I saw The Minotaur on the revival, and it indeed makes for a perfect counter-example (all the more so that the revival was sold out as well), but it was pushed by ecstatic reviews, and it's pretty much the exception (I believe the Anna Nicole revival was far from successful (once was enough for me)), Miss Fortune was a disaster on all levels, we'll have to see if they revive Written On Skin (I hope they do as I couldn't attend then due to illness).

 

I have no idea what it takes for a French/Paris audience to boo (I don't think I've ever been to a first night of anything there), but Nicolas Joel (head of the opera from 2009 to 2014) was very much disliked and cut his term short, a criticism that came up a lot was that he was far too traditional.

 

Not having grown up here and not having children, I'm not qualified to comment on education, but based on the British people I know it is tempting to see roots there.

 

To try and steer this back on topic, some thoughts about Untouchable, I thought it was all a bit meh. I haven't seen much by Schechter but I've liked what little it was. This felt a bit repetitive and bit too long, and far more damaging, it was all a bit "small" when all about it should have been overwhelming (music included which while louder than normal ballet music wasn't loud enough). I'm however perfectly comfortable with this type of work being performed by the RB, the comments up-thread about the lack of principals reminded me of a scene on Wiseman's La Danse where Brigitte Lefevre tells Emmanuel Gat that he can have etoiles in his piece but he needs to give them something to dance that justifies casting them. I found it refreshing to have a work with the company front and centre, shame it wasn't a better one.

Edited April 1, 2015 by A frog

[Lindsay]

Really interesting thoughts A frog.  I agree with you that class has much to do with it.  My husband, now a musician, is from a lower middle class family and was mercilessly mocked and bullied by his own parents (!?!) for borrowing Wagner and Stockhausen scores and recordings and videos of foreign films from the local library when he was 10 or 11.  They couldn't believe he was really interested in them so assumed that he was "showing off" and needed "putting in his place".  Now that he has a successful career as a soloist, they justify it by saying they were "worried he wouldn't fit in" and that people would think he was "odd".  Of course he is odd, but I think that in other cultures those unusual interests in a child would be seen as something to support rather than suppress.  Middle class cultural inhibitions are a strange thing.

 

My own family, while more working class than his, are Irish, and have a much more accepting attitude to culture.  My grandfather who left school at 13 and worked as a builder his whole life could recite whole Shakespeare plays by heart and do the Times crossword in his lunch hour.  Maybe this resistance to culture is an English rather than a British phenomenon?

[alison]

I've wondered why ballet audiences in Britain seem to be more conservative than those in other countries. Would anyone like to offer an opinion?

 

I'm not *that* sure that they are: as others have pointed out, the USA and Russia as a whole aren't particularly adventurous, it would seem, and I'm not sure about other areas of Eastern Europe in particular.  I do wonder whether the paucity of performances on TV contributes in some way: if people caught a glimpse of something, they might be more interested and open to seeing a live performance, but those too are generally pretty conservative.  I am still awaiting the first RB live cinema broadcast of a mixed bill.

 

Do the same issues arise when talking about the other art form which takes up a lot of time at the Royal Opera House?

 

Do opera audiences want new, innovative operas that will attract a wider, or younger audience?  Or are they happy with the tried and trusted?

 

My impression is that the RO too has been more conservative in its programming in recent years, with large runs of things like La Traviata and Carmen.  But I don't pay a vast amount of attention to it at the moment.

 

I would say that the UK (and the US to an even greater degree because of the almost total absence of public funding) are more conservative in their approach to contemporary classical music and to opera than European countries.  For example, Germany benefits from federal support for the arts, which means that even medium-sized provincial cities have their symphony, their opera house and their ballet company.  At generously subsidised prices, audiences are far more willing to support their local arts organisations, become subscribers and try new work and there is not the same "social mystique" around attendance at opera, ballet or concerts.  

 

True.  And a lot of it is perception, of course.  Not to mention all those people who have told me that if they were going to go to the ROH they'd want the best seats, and they can't afford those, so they won't go!

 

Fonty, opera (and classical music) audiences in London seem to me just as conservative if not more. Not so much in their refusal to embrace contemporary works, but also in how unpopular anything a little off the beaten track ends up being. [...] My other example which I found rather telling was a visit by the Vienna Philharmonic a few years ago, the programme was Brahms, a Brahms quartet orchestrated by Schoenberg and some early Schoenberg (from his post-Romantic days), it wasn't sold out, which is more than surprising for one of their concerts, the only explanation I could think of was that the idea of listening to even 25 minutes of Schoenberg was that much of a deterrent, even though in this specific case there was nothing atonal about it.

 

London concert-going has visibly decreased: attendances are noticeably more sporadic at the Festival Hall, for example, than they used to be.  Even the Royal Concertgebouw's last visit to the Barbican wasn't a total sell-out (possibly 3 Bruckner symphonies was a bit too much?), and it does seem that audiences are going for tried and tested, or big names (who may of course not actually be the best), far more.

 

This is all fascinating ... truly .... but isn't it getting a tad off topic.  That was, I think, -- or at least started off as - opinions/considerations in, round and about the 'Four Temperaments Triple Bill' currently being performed by the Royal Ballet.  

 

True.  Perhaps we could take the other discussion into another thread?

[aileen]

Why do you think that London concert-going audiences have declined, alison? I actually think that the well educated, comfortably off middle classes in England are not, by and large, into culture. Cinema is still popular, but that's all. Even people who sing in amateur choirs rarely seem to go and hear choirs as audience members. As a middle aged mother of children my observation is that child-rearing is much lengthier and more intensive than it was a generation ago and that many parents prefer to spend the limited free time that they have doing things with their children, which will not include a trip to a classical concert or a 'challenging' night at the opera or the ballet. My husband and I do attend cultural performances, go to see exhibitions etc with our children but I don't mention this to other parents much in case we are seen as a bit pretentious. In my experience, well off, middle class parents prefer to spend their money on nice houses, home decor, private school fees and a second home in the West Country or France or holidays ski-ing (winter) or in Italy or Greece (summer).

[LinMM]

My grandfather was similar Lindsey....leaving school at 12! He read widely ......cycling to the Library to get some books out only a few days before he died at 88!!

 

There were working men's associations and clubs which I believe encouraged people to educate themselves.

 

Much to all our annoyance he insisted on mending the radio and later tv when they broke down! It may have taken him a bit longer and everyone having to tiptoe around the newspaper on the floor.....but he'd rather read up and learn how to do it himself than call someone in!!

 

I think "cultural norms" of the time do influence large numbers of people ......and what it is thought acceptable to do ...but luckily there are always individuals who challenge the status quo or just ignore it and do their own thing because they are strong enough to believe in themselves ......from whichever class they come from.

 

Sorry this is way off thread .....but one thing is that I'm determined to see this work of Shechter after all this discussion has come out of this programme!

[Fonty]

Why do you think that London concert-going audiences have declined, alison? I actually think that the well educated, comfortably off middle classes in England are not, by and large, into culture.

 

I have a theory, but I don't think it is appropriate for this thread, or indeed for this forum.

 

It involves a very nasty word.

 

Politics. 

[FLOSS]

Out of curiosity can anyone think of who the English equivalents of Celine and Proust are? It seems to me that the only authors that a British politician can safely say he/she enjoys reading are Jane Austen,Anthony Trollope and P.G. Wodehouse none of whom carry quite the same intellectual weight. Any other author would guarantee almost certain political annihilation on the basis that the politician concerned was too intellectual, lacked the common touch and was totally untrustworthy.

 

What stands in the way of people in this country being open and more welcoming of new developments in the arts? Surely a better question is what stands in the way of people in this country having any interest in the arts? One or more of the following ;lack of physical access and access to information about performances and companies.Cost, real or imagined;entrenched philistinism at home,in the wider family;in the education system and in the media;newspapers particularly the Murdoch press apparently endorsing the tastes of the man in the street,discouraging interest in anything except popular culture and denigrating everything to do with the arts and everyone involved in the arts as "Luvvies";both commercial and public television withdrawing from producing weekly arts programmes, whatever happened to the BBC's duty to educate? The only place where you can access new developments in the arts easily is Radio 3.

 

Philistinism exists at every level of society. If you are interested in the arts you are perceived as being odd whatever the social group to which you belong. King George V's favourite opera is said to have been Boheme.The reason? Because it was short. His grandson George Lascelles caused great consternation within his family because of his love of opera.His uncle the Prince of Wales actually asked what was wrong with his nephew.

 

The immediate answer to why some of those on the forum think the Shechter is wonderful and others are considerably less than underwhelmed by it, is simply a question of preferences and what you have been exposed to. When the Royal Ballet staged Pierrot Lunaire there quite a few ,on this forum who complained about the music in much the same way as some have been commenting adversely about Mahler's Song of the Earth.I have come to accept that everyone has their cut off point when it comes to music and that for some it is still strangely early in the twentieth century.But it all has a context. I recall that years ago Sir Robert Mayer,of Children's Concerts fame, appeared on Desert Island Discs. At one point he spoke about his mother's love of music and then said that she did not like modern music.The composer whose works she could not appreciate was Brahms. Yes even good old safe and dependable Brahms was once, to some at least, a modern composer.

[A frog]

Out of curiosity can anyone think of who the English equivalents of Celine and Proust are? It seems to me that the only authors that a British politician can safely say he/she enjoys reading are Jane Austen,Anthony Trollope and P.G. Wodehouse none of whom carry quite the same intellectual weight. Any other author would guarantee almost certain political annihilation on the basis that the politician concerned was too intellectual, lacked the common touch and was totally untrustworthy.

 

 

I'd make the English language equivalents Joyce or Woolf, or Henry James if one was to see Proust as the end of the novel rather than the beginning of modernism. I have a hard time imagining a British author as vulgar as Celine, and an even harder time imagining a British politician admitting to liking him. And yes, I'd love to see the reaction to a politician going on about how much they love Joyce.