Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Baker45]

All I can add to the mix for those yet to start their dance journey is that mine is in the system and has been for several years. They said they didn't recognise the allegations personally (that doesn't mean they don't happen) and their time has been overall a happy and enjoyable one.

 

Sure at aged 11 and still now they had some ropey times, home sickness, the feeling they weren't doing so well and feedback about improvements. Having to hear on the phone about things that were upsetting them obviously worried us but they were normally sorted out but to be honest the cause of most the grief were other students 

 

Mine also wouldn't say boo to a goose and that lasted a few years until they found their feet. There were teachers they liked and some they didnt. When some boys and girls were assessed out of course you would ask about them and it would either be a surprise or more often that not it wouldn't. New students that came in were to a large extent better dancers if you asked about them

 

Would I have done something different. No, if that's were they wanted to be to try to become a dancer then I'll support them in anything they do. The local comprehensive for my other kids was challenging on a completely different level to anything at WL. I wouldn't want to be a kid again in normal school. Imagine what a panorama program would think about the general schooling system.....

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by alison

[Ruby Foo]

59 minutes ago, Baker45 said:

All I can add to the mix for those yet to start their dance journey is that mine is in the system and has been for several years. They said they didn't recognise the allegations personally (that doesn't mean they don't happen) and her time has been overall a happy and enjoyable one.

 

Sure at aged 11 and still now they had some ropey times, home sickness, the feeling they weren't doing so well and feedback about improvements. Having to hear on the phone about things that were upsetting them obviously worried us but they were normally sorted out but to be honest the cause of most the grief were other students 

 

Mine also wouldn't say boo to a goose and that lasted a few years until they found their feet. There were teachers they liked and some they didnt. When some boys and girls were assessed out of course you would ask about them and it would either be a surprise or more often that not it wouldn't. New students that came in were to a large extent better dancers if you asked about them

 

Would I have done something different. No, if that's were they wanted to be to try to become a dancer then I'll support them in anything they do. The local comprehensive for my other kids was challenging on a completely different level to anything at WL. I wouldn't want to be a kid again in normal school. Imagine what a panorama program would think about the general schooling system.....

 

 

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

4 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

Just to add, through my non dancing kid’s education, they had a huge variety of different teachers through the academic day. Not the same teacher for class every day for a whole year or even two. If my dd could have had a different perspective from a different teacher once in a while, it might have been a more balanced and wholly different outcome.

[Anna C]

2 hours ago, Baker45 said:

The local comprehensive for my other kids was challenging on a completely different level to anything at WL. I wouldn't want to be a kid again in normal school. Imagine what a panorama program would think about the general schooling system.....

There’s a major difference between academic school and ballet school though, and that is that as parents, we absolutely CAN (and should) ask for a meeting with the teacher/staff member in question and, if necessary, the Head of Year/Assistant Head/Deputy Head/Head Teacher, make a complaint, know that we have further avenues to explore if the complaint is not investigated thoroughly and resolved satisfactorily, AND - most importantly of all - there are not 100 other children who can and will replace our child when they are inevitably pushed out - or leave.  We can go to the Governors, to the Parent Governor, to the LADO, or OFSTED.  

 

The fear factor isn’t there.  The fear of being labelled a troublemaker (or the child with the trouble-making parents).  The fear of punishment or being ignored, not cast, just because your parent has dared to complain.  The fear that even at local or Associates level, word will get around, you will be blacklisted somehow, you won’t be considered for a place in a better dance school, or in the next year up at Associates, or make the competition troupe, or get a solo in the show.

 

We’ve talked before on the forum about putting up with things in ballet (even at local ballet classes) that, as parents, we wouldn’t dream of tolerating from our child’s academic school.   The education system in this country has its flaws, absolutely, but the fear isn’t there.  It absolutely still is there in ballet training though.

 

I’m very happy that White Lodge has been a positive experience for you as a family.  It undoubtedly is for other families too.  I’ve no doubt that there are some - maybe even many - happy pupils at every full-time ballet school, but that doesn’t mean that everything’s lovely in the garden.  

[Ballet Saga]

35 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

I think you’ve had a very positive experience of regular school! I have heard horrendous things happen in regular schools and you’re shut down by the school closing ranks immediately. (I also had a terrible time at regular school and I was given absolutely no support and nothing happened to the school or staff).

My own dc was verbally and physically abused by teaching assistants and a deputy head at regular primary school and nothing was done. The school closed ranks. 

[Swanwings]

5 minutes ago, Graceful said:

I think you’ve had a very positive experience of regular school! I have heard horrendous things happen in regular schools and you’re shut down by the school closing ranks immediately. (I also had a terrible time at regular school and I was given absolutely no support and nothing happened to the school or staff).

My own dc was verbally and physically abused by teaching assistants and a deputy head at regular primary school and nothing was done. The school closed ranks. 

I agree wish this. Also had a terrible experience of state school and my son had a terrible time at a state primary at the hands of the staff, but that is not what this thread is about. My dd has contrastingly had a wonderful time of vocational and wouldnt swap it for the world. She recoils in horror at the thought of the local state school (its not great) and is so happy that she didnt have to go.

 

I do however realise this is not everyones experience and do not wish to take away from those who have had a traumatic time. Like @Baker45, I simply to point out that its not always like that, not everywhere and not everyone. It is most certainly not acceptable to suffer humiliation, bullying and fear from staff. I sincerely hope that can change and the children who have experienced this can heal and recover.

 

L

[DVDfan]

As I have said in another thread, this isn't really about ballet, it is about teachers bullying pupils. This can happen anywhere - my daughter is 34 and still suffering from the verbal abuse meted out by one teacher in an ordinary English primary school. This included encouraging the other girls to exclude her socially.  Complaints - if you understand what is happening which you may not as your child is too humiliated to tell you - will be met with a process similar to gaslighting. 

Please, please, please Panorama, do do a documentary on teacher bullying in ordinary schools!

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Graceful said:

I think you’ve had a very positive experience of regular school! I have heard horrendous things happen in regular schools and you’re shut down by the school closing ranks immediately. (I also had a terrible time at regular school and I was given absolutely no support and nothing happened to the school or staff).

My own dc was verbally and physically abused by teaching assistants and a deputy head at regular primary school and nothing was done. The school closed ranks. 

 
I’m very sorry to hear this and others that have experienced similar in regular schools.

It appears we were lucky in that regard. 
Much harder to bring the abusers to justice without witnesses. And those often not willing to speak out. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

2 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

I agree with you completely. I think it’s definitely not the same with general education schools, comprehensive or not. Pupils are not in these schools with the same primary goal, they all have different ambitions which they are free to explore and work towards in the school. I can imagine parents will find it easier to move their children to a different school should they feel the resolution offered or the actions implemented are not sufficient when a concern arises. The kids in a way do not feel like they need to be in that particular school if anything went wrong, they can still get to where they want to be attending a different school. They don’t feel the need to stay somewhere because they are one of only XX number of students taken in from all over the world. They can keep their school and home lives separate.  They can find their niche groups within the school - some are sporty, some are academic, some are into the arts, the general atmosphere I feel won’t be as stifled and intense. I can only speak of this from the pov of someone whose DCs never went to vocational school. Both my DCs have always been in state schools and both confirm that their respective heads and deputy heads from past and present schools have been very visible and always made it clear that they can be approached in confidence at any time if they encounter any issues with peers or other staff members. The same message is made clear to parents. We only have to email any teacher or even the head and be assured they will personally get back to us asap. This is of course from my own personal experience but I can’t really compare vocational schools to academic schools. We are talking about vocational  schools that have maybe less than 200 students in the whole of its lower school. In a normal state school, that is mostly likely just one year group. It is my belief that for schools with such small enrolment, there should be a whole lot more scope for a nurturing and personalised educational experience, where every student is known by name, where processes and policies are implemented  properly, where there is excellent oversight of everything and everyone.

[academicdancer]

4 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Just to add, through my non dancing kid’s education, they had a huge variety of different teachers through the academic day. Not the same teacher for class every day for a whole year or even two. If my dd could have had a different perspective from a different teacher once in a while, it might have been a more balanced and wholly different outcome.

I do wonder why each year only has one teacher for ballet. It means that if you don't gel with the teacher (or worse!) there is no respite. I don't think there'd be a huge loss of consistency in approach with 2 or 3 teachers each year. Often it makes the dancer more adaptable and with different ways of receiving corrections often technique can improve quicker.

[Emeralds]

Of course, the difference with bullying at a regular school - state or private - is that you can always leave, and there are other options, even more if you are willing to pay (or sit for scholarship exams /apply for music, sport or drama scholarships) for private schools - many private schools now also offer bursaries for low income households whose child passes the entrance exam but can’t afford fees. But for ballet vocational schools, there aren’t that many alternative schools to choose from if there’s a problem with the one you’re attending. Also as a taxpayer I’m not happy that vocational schools “assess out” so close to students taking GCSE, A level or finishing a degree. That’s a waste of their money, their time, and our taxpayer subsidy- it’s immoral that they don’t get to finish their final year and at least receive their qualifications to show the hard work they’ve put in. Not all music, drama, dance students will go on to become performers- others go on to teach, become writers, administrators, or work on the business side of the arts. But at least let the students get their qualifications. 

[Pas de Quatre]

8 hours ago, academicdancer said:

I do wonder why each year only has one teacher for ballet. It means that if you don't gel with the teacher (or worse!) there is no respite. I don't think there'd be a huge loss of consistency in approach with 2 or 3 teachers each year. Often it makes the dancer more adaptable and with different ways of receiving corrections often technique can improve quicker.

In the Russian schools, such as Vaganova Academy, each group of students is allocated to one Teacher for the whole course, who becomes mentor as well. This is why whenever famous Russian dancers' training is referenced it always says "class of ...." as do many photo captions of class group pictures. If it doesn't gel the pupil can ask to move to a different class.  This is a very different approach, there are pros and cons for both, but I think the continuity in the Russian method is a bonus.

[academicdancer]

3 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

In the Russian schools, such as Vaganova Academy, each group of students is allocated to one Teacher for the whole course, who becomes mentor as well. This is why whenever famous Russian dancers' training is referenced it always says "class of ...." as do many photo captions of class group pictures. If it doesn't gel the pupil can ask to move to a different class.  This is a very different approach, there are pros and cons for both, but I think the continuity in the Russian method is a bonus.

Yes, at least at Vaganova they have more than one class per year, so there is a possibility of changing class if the fit is not right with the teacher. 

[Ondine]

The academic qualifications issue is a difficult one.

 

I assume White Lodge  'assesses out' at the end of year nine in order that those students it doesn't see as benefitting from the ballet training there for whatever reason can move elsewhere for the two years leading up to GCSEs, that could be another vocational school or it could be mainstream education. Of course there are the obvious problems with this, including the effects of the shock to the young person being told to leave. Loss of hopes and dreams, loss of self esteem, loss of friendships, trying to find a place and settle in a new school, maybe a local day school which will be strange after boarding, none of those things will be easy to deal with.  When ballet has been a huge part of your life for years, the sense of grief must be enormous. However, it's also obvious in those circumstances they can't remain, especially if state funding is involved.   No simple answers.

 

At the end of the White Lodge years, it's clear I think to all that moving to Upper School isn't these days a given and that's a whole new process of applying for other places at other vocational schools, or leaving dance training altogether to do A levels in mainstream / non vocational education.

 

Upper School I presume it's made clear at that point that a third, graduate year isn't guaranteed.  However, that leaves those students asked to leave in academic limbo. 

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/academic-boarding/life-at-upper-school/degree-course-classical-ballet-and-dance-performance/

 

 

Students who successfully complete the required number of credits in Years 1 and 2 but who do not progress to Year 3 will be awarded a foundation degree certificate and will be able to apply to Higher Education institutions to ‘top-up’ to a full degree. Students who successfully complete all three years of study will be awarded a BA Degree.

 

It sounds simple, in reality I suspect it isn't!

 

It's all such a gamble.

 

[mum5678]

10 hours ago, Emeralds said:

Of course, the difference with bullying at a regular school - state or private - is that you can always leave, and there are other options, even more if you are willing to pay (or sit for scholarship exams /apply for music, sport or drama scholarships) for private schools - many private schools now also offer bursaries for low income households whose child passes the entrance exam but can’t afford fees. But for ballet vocational schools, there aren’t that many alternative schools to choose from if there’s a problem with the one you’re attending. Also as a taxpayer I’m not happy that vocational schools “assess out” so close to students taking GCSE, A level or finishing a degree. That’s a waste of their money, their time, and our taxpayer subsidy- it’s immoral that they don’t get to finish their final year and at least receive their qualifications to show the hard work they’ve put in. Not all music, drama, dance students will go on to become performers- others go on to teach, become writers, administrators, or work on the business side of the arts. But at least let the students get their qualifications. 

Another thing to consider is whether the child is 'tied in'... we were offered a scholarship to a vocational school on the understanding that if DS left he would have to pay back the tuition fees.

[mum5678]

 

12 hours ago, academicdancer said:

I do wonder why each year only has one teacher for ballet. It means that if you don't gel with the teacher (or worse!) there is no respite. I don't think there'd be a huge loss of consistency in approach with 2 or 3 teachers each year. Often it makes the dancer more adaptable and with different ways of receiving corrections often technique can improve quicker.

DS's year has 3 ballet teachers at their school and they find the mix really helpful. Different teachers pick up different things, and have different ways of correcting/advising and different experiences to share. Seems to work very well! 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

33 minutes ago, Ondine said:

The academic qualifications issue is a difficult one.

 

I assume White Lodge  'assesses out' at the end of year nine in order that those students it doesn't see as benefitting from the ballet training there for whatever reason can move elsewhere for the two years leading up to GCSEs, that could be another vocational school or it could be mainstream education. Of course there are the obvious problems with this, including the effects of the shock to the young person being told to leave. Loss of hopes and dreams, loss of self esteem, loss of friendships, trying to find a place and settle in a new school, maybe a local day school which will be strange after boarding, none of those things will be easy to deal with.  When ballet has been a huge part of your life for years, the sense of grief must be enormous. However, it's also obvious in those circumstances they can't remain, especially if state funding is involved.   No simple answers.

 

At the end of the White Lodge years, it's clear I think to all that moving to Upper School isn't these days a given and that's a whole new process of applying for other places at other vocational schools, or leaving dance training altogether to do A levels in mainstream / non vocational education.

 

Upper School I presume it's made clear at that point that a third, graduate year isn't guaranteed.  However, that leaves those students asked to leave in academic limbo. 

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/academic-boarding/life-at-upper-school/degree-course-classical-ballet-and-dance-performance/

 

 

Students who successfully complete the required number of credits in Years 1 and 2 but who do not progress to Year 3 will be awarded a foundation degree certificate and will be able to apply to Higher Education institutions to ‘top-up’ to a full degree. Students who successfully complete all three years of study will be awarded a BA Degree.

 

It sounds simple, in reality I suspect it isn't!

 

It's all such a gamble.

 

It is indeed such a gamble and even with it being so, and I suspect even with all the discussion surrounding the Panorama show, I highly doubt the school’s/schools’ application numbers would experience a dip. Already I know of lots of young dancers and parents busily preparing to meet the application deadline this year - booking photo shoots, privates, additional classes and physio sessions, etc. The number of those who turned down year 7 places this year surprised me, if I’m not mistaken, it’s much higher than previous years. I do wonder if this was just a blip though and despite all this talk I really doubt it will make much of a difference once offers come out. I have spoken to so many parents who used to be quite vocal about not wanting to send their children at such a young age to board and/or parents who don’t want to send their children to so and so school as they’ve heard it’s quite an intense/stressful environment and yet once they receive an offer…it’s a hard one to resist I guess. I’ve also spoken to many parents who have heard of these things, are critical of the school, and yet year after year they would still apply. A big name is hard to resist. On the surface, it appears to be the best way to get to an ambition or dream despite all such talk as “all roads lead to Rome”.

[Ruby Foo]

49 minutes ago, Ondine said:

The academic qualifications issue is a difficult one.

 

I assume White Lodge  'assesses out' at the end of year nine in order that those students it doesn't see as benefitting from the ballet training there for whatever reason can move elsewhere for the two years leading up to GCSEs, that could be another vocational school or it could be mainstream education. Of course there are the obvious problems with this, including the effects of the shock to the young person being told to leave. Loss of hopes and dreams, loss of self esteem, loss of friendships, trying to find a place and settle in a new school, maybe a local day school which will be strange after boarding, none of those things will be easy to deal with.  When ballet has been a huge part of your life for years, the sense of grief must be enormous. However, it's also obvious in those circumstances they can't remain, especially if state funding is involved.   No simple answers.

 

At the end of the White Lodge years, it's clear I think to all that moving to Upper School isn't these days a given and that's a whole new process of applying for other places at other vocational schools, or leaving dance training altogether to do A levels in mainstream / non vocational education.

 

Upper School I presume it's made clear at that point that a third, graduate year isn't guaranteed.  However, that leaves those students asked to leave in academic limbo. 

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/academic-boarding/life-at-upper-school/degree-course-classical-ballet-and-dance-performance/

 

 

Students who successfully complete the required number of credits in Years 1 and 2 but who do not progress to Year 3 will be awarded a foundation degree certificate and will be able to apply to Higher Education institutions to ‘top-up’ to a full degree. Students who successfully complete all three years of study will be awarded a BA Degree.

 

It sounds simple, in reality I suspect it isn't!

 

It's all such a gamble.

 

If you want to go to University to study physiotherapy or law for example, you will need get A levels. And a good set at that!

[Neverdancedjustamum]

3 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

If you want to go to University to study physiotherapy or law for example, you will need get A levels. And a good set at that!

Absolutely, this. The best programmes in the most reputable universities would need 3 A levels, with grade requirements and at least one required subject out of the 3. If you don’t have these, you would likely need to wait another year to take them as you have to wait for the next sitting and admissions cycle. Not all universities would accept certificates in lieu of A levels, and not all would have contextual admissions or alternative offers. Even those who offer contextual admissions limit it to applicants who come from backgrounds that make them historically or normally less likely to pursue higher education, particularly to that specific university. 

 

[Ruby Foo]

7 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Absolutely, this. The best programmes in the most reputable universities would need 3 A levels, with grade requirements and at least one required subject out of the 3. If you don’t have these, you would likely need to wait another year to take them as you have to wait for the next sitting and admissions cycle. Not all universities would accept certificates in lieu of A levels, and not all would have contextual admissions or alternative offers. Even those who offer contextual admissions limit it to applicants who come from backgrounds that make them historically or normally less likely to pursue higher education, particularly to that specific university. 

 

Exactly. And the later you are assessed out the longer it will take you to catch up. 

[Ondine]

3 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Exactly. And the later you are assessed out the longer it will take you to catch up. 

 

You also have to hope you have parents with the financial ability to fund you to catch up!

[Ruby Foo]

34 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

It is indeed such a gamble and even with it being so, and I suspect even with all the discussion surrounding the Panorama show, I highly doubt the school’s/schools’ application numbers would experience a dip. Already I know of lots of young dancers and parents busily preparing to meet the application deadline this year - booking photo shoots, privates, additional classes and physio sessions, etc. The number of those who turned down year 7 places this year surprised me, if I’m not mistaken, it’s much higher than previous years. I do wonder if this was just a blip though and despite all this talk I really doubt it will make much of a difference once offers come out. I have spoken to so many parents who used to be quite vocal about not wanting to send their children at such a young age to board and/or parents who don’t want to send their children to so and so school as they’ve heard it’s quite an intense/stressful environment and yet once they receive an offer…it’s a hard one to resist I guess. I’ve also spoken to many parents who have heard of these things, are critical of the school, and yet year after year they would still apply. A big name is hard to resist. On the surface, it appears to be the best way to get to an ambition or dream despite all such talk as “all roads lead to Rome”.

I’m sure there will be parents out there right now who see the bad publicity as  even more incentive to try for a place and have a better chance, such is this strange world of Ballet. We were warned by several people in the know just what the risks from drinking from that chalice would mean and went ahead anyway. We believed things had improved since the old days. Sadly, they hadn’t.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

11 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

I’m sure there will be parents out there right now who see the bad publicity as  even more incentive to try for a place and have a better chance, such is this strange world of Ballet. We were warned by several people in the know just what the risks from drinking from that chalice would mean and went ahead anyway. We believed things had improved since the old days. Sadly, they hadn’t.

I think there’s an element of parents thinking ‘Surely, it can’t happen to my child’ or the thinking that all these cases are historical and therefore things won’t be like that anymore. A lot of the children would have come from local dance schools where I’m sure they would have been one of the best and as soon as that offer comes in, they’re hailed even more as so. And then there are those who have the fortune of being one of the ‘favourites’, I’m sure it will be harder for their parents to see when these things are happening as it’s not happening to their child. 

[Anna C]

59 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

If you want to go to University to study physiotherapy or law for example, you will need get A levels. And a good set at that!

Indeed.  I may be wrong here, but I believe that if you leave/are assessed out after 2 years of 16+ ballet training with a foundation degree or certificate, you are very limited in what subjects you can “top up” to a BA.  If your Level 5 HND/Foundation degree/diploma/certificate is in Dance or Dance related studies, you can only “top up” to a Level 6 degree in the same, or a closely related field.

 

Tring Park is probably the best 6th form for offering a relatively wide range of A Levels in facilitating subjects, enabling its students to change path completely if desired (or necessary).

[Kerfuffle]

Three A levels at high grades is pretty hard to achieve even if not doing ballet on the side (let alone at vocational school)! I think something has to give. 10 GCSEs was bad enough last year for my DD! She was at ordinary state school, so  no easing off for the sake of ballet training! In the end there is no easy solution, you either end up compromising your ballet training or your academics.

[Ondine]

34 minutes ago, Anna C said:

if you leave/are assessed out after 2 years of 16+ ballet training

 

Assuming you've achieved a decent clutch of GCSEs while in full time ballet training anyhow, then you've managed to do at least some academic work in what in a normal school would be the sixth form, then you have to begin again outside the vocational school at the age when your peers are off to uni, funded probably by the bank of mum and dad? But where? You can't simply sign on at the local sixth form college as you're too old.

 

These are young people with many abilities and talents and skills, but they can only achieve within the system they are in, and if that system is mainly devoted to producing dancers it's not going to be providing an all round education is it?

 

When you consider all the students who actually don't end up wirh a ballet career, I wonder what they all do? I wonder if there have been any studies?

 

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

31 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

Assuming you've achieved a decent clutch of GCSEs while in full time ballet training anyhow, then you've managed to do at least some academic work in what in a normal school would be the sixth form, then you have to begin again outside the vocational school at the age when your peers are off to uni, funded probably by the bank of mum and dad? But where? You can't simply sign on at the local sixth form college as you're too old.

 

These are young people with many abilities and talents and skills, but they can only achieve within the system they are in, and if that system is mainly devoted to producing dancers it's not going to be providing an all round education is it?

 

When you consider all the students who actually don't end up wirh a ballet career, I wonder what they all do? I wonder if there have been any studies?

 

 

 

That would be very interesting and perhaps there are studies already done. Incidentally I was watching the sports news this morning and there was a piece about a premiere league football club that employs mentors specifically to prepare academy players for the likelihood of eventual life outside football. They take a very realistic view that out of the extremely talented group of academy trainees they have, most of them would end up in careers outside football. I only had it in the background but the mentor was addressing a classroom full of teenagers in the academy and the mentor was saying something like “Look around you, realistically only one of you would be playing top tier football in x years’ time” or something along those lines. I did see them flash a university’s research finding that “98% of players awarded with an academic scholarship by English clubs at 16 are no longer playing in the top five tiers of English football at 18.” This was promptly followed by “55% of players deselected from academies suffered from clinical levels of psychological distress within 21 days of being released.”  I do wonder if the stats are similar.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Kerfuffle]

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

 

Assuming you've achieved a decent clutch of GCSEs while in full time ballet training anyhow, then you've managed to do at least some academic work in what in a normal school would be the sixth form, then you have to begin again outside the vocational school at the age when your peers are off to uni, funded probably by the bank of mum and dad? But where? You can't simply sign on at the local sixth form college as you're too old.

 

These are young people with many abilities and talents and skills, but they can only achieve within the system they are in, and if that system is mainly devoted to producing dancers it's not going to be providing an all round education is it?

 

When you consider all the students who actually don't end up wirh a ballet career, I wonder what they all do? I wonder if there have been any studies?

 

 

 

There are access courses all around the country for 19 +, these bridge the gap between GCSES and A Levels and lead to degree courses. Even in science and engineering . Some kids at my DD’s old school were a year older than their peer group for one reason or another so were 19 in year 13. A Levels can be taken at any age. There are also foundation degrees for those without A Levels. 
 

I think it sounds as though the early vocational school experience stunts  the ability to adapt. Ballet requires phenomenal dedication but these days there aren’t as many jobs for life anywhere - I think this is what Gen Z is faced with, so as parents we need to encourage some flexibility in their ambitions. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[Ondine]

Yes but it's a long haul isn't it, for possibly traumatised 18 / 19 year olds whose life so far has been mostly spent on the practical skills associated with a dance career, for performing, being trained for that, and that's assuming they have parents able to carry on paying for them / supporting them to study post 18 / 19. Access courses then A levels then... whatever.

 

I wonder how many currently being groomed for the elite schools audition process have any idea of the dropout rate, how few actually make it, and the years after before they can begin to make a life outside of ballet.

 

As I said above, it's a real gamble.

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

8 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Yes but it's a long haul isn't it, for possibly traumatised 18 / 19 year olds whose life so far has been mostly spent on the practical skills associated with a dance career, for performing, being trained for that, and that's assuming they have parents able to carry on paying for them / supporting them to study post 18 / 19. Access courses then A levels then... whatever.

 

I wonder how many currently being groomed for the elite schools audition process have any idea of the dropout rate, how few actually make it, and the years after before they can begin to make a life outside of ballet.

 

As I said above, it's a real gamble.

 

 

I think most would be well aware. Of those I’ve spoken with, they all say they are realistic and know the stats but would still go for it because it’s their DCs dream and ambition. And I guess as a parent, you can just hope that your DC will maybe be one of the minority who actually makes it into a big company. 

[Anna C]

7 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Yes but it's a long haul isn't it, for possibly traumatised 18 / 19 year olds whose life so far has been mostly spent on the practical skills associated with a dance career, for performing

Absolutely.  In addition to “possibly traumatised”, you can add any or all of these:  depression, anxiety, loss of confidence, loss of any remaining self-esteem, body dysmorphia and/or eating disorders, physical injuries, and grief for a life/career they will now no longer have.  Plus the (sometimes temporary) loss of the love of dance itself.  
 

It’s heartbreaking.
 

 

[Lifeafterballet]

51 minutes ago, Anna C said:

Absolutely.  In addition to “possibly traumatised”, you can add any or all of these:  depression, anxiety, loss of confidence, loss of any remaining self-esteem, body dysmorphia and/or eating disorders, physical injuries, and grief for a life/career they will now no longer have.  Plus the (sometimes temporary) loss of the love of dance itself.  
 

It’s heartbreaking.
 

 

All of the above 👆 

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Anna C said:

Absolutely.  In addition to “possibly traumatised”, you can add any or all of these:  depression, anxiety, loss of confidence, loss of any remaining self-esteem, body dysmorphia and/or eating disorders, physical injuries, and grief for a life/career they will now no longer have.  Plus the (sometimes temporary) loss of the love of dance itself.  
 

It’s heartbreaking.
 

 

 
Another important element is the distance you feel from the ‘ ordinary ‘ world. If you’ve been training at a vocational school from 11 then that world is pretty much the only world you know. Training at the top level is no small deal. You have lived, breathed, talked and ate ballet for years and years. You have in fact become it. That, in fact, is the purpose of RBS not allowing day students at US. To make ballet their complete and utter focus. To shut out any possible distractions. We asked for a day student request and were refused on that premise.
This is where I feel ballet and football are very different. A very large percentage of the population can talk about some elements of football. Ballet, on the other hand is a very niche market.  Surprisingly, that lack of any decent knowledge about Ballet hasn’t really changed despite the internet. Chat to someone on the bus and say you are training as a Ballet Dancer and you will be met with either complete blankness or the opposite - a completely false understanding of what that means. It’s often a good laugh but not when you are grieving for  a good 6/7 years of your life and need to  express that to someone. Even counsellors find it difficult to get their heads round what has actually been going on those very important developmental years of your life. Childhood in fact.