Thought provoking article by Alice Robb

[Beezie]

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/features/alice-robb-new-york-city-ballet-ballerina-princess-thin-b2294936.html
 

Stumbled upon this, and it is quite thought provoking.  Now I want to read her book!

 

I like how she discusses that only the success stories are shared.  But every aspiring dancer has a story to tell, even if they never ‘make it.’

[Beezie]

She also talks about leaving SAB when her body was identified to not be developing in the right way.  Of course, made me want to google her picture.  She is an absolutely beautiful, thin, willowy looking young lady.  Granted, I know, I cannot see flexibility, turnout, feet.  But still!!!  It’s amazing how much the ballet world can expect from

someone!  You can completely look the part and still be told you don’t have the body for it, I guess.  Maybe it is these directors that have a bit of body dysmorphia.   
 

I still go back to the competitiveness of so few professional spots.  If ballet were much more mainstream, with productions as common as community theater or football leagues, maybe it would be possible to feel a sense of accomplishment without someone finding fault in your body where it probably doesn’t exist (at least, not in the real world.)

[Lifeafterballet]

We could have written this ourselves 😢

Love the ballet, hate the toxic culture.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

Would love to know what others think of this book. Thanks for the link to the article @Beezie! It now makes me want to read it too. Just out of sheer curiosity thankfully as DD, whilst loving dance and ballet mostly, is more interested in attending school and eventually going to university. I actually have to thank her being neck deep in ballet/associates a few years ago to see clearly around her that realistically she (and we) don’t have it in us to spend as much time and money to ‘join the race’ as such. When we look around us now, we just realise the crazy amount of time and money others of similar age spend on this dream. It’s good that they’re passionate about something but many times I’ve had mums ask me “and for what?” and I can’t answer them truthfully as I don’t think it would be helpful to tell them the stats as we all know it. I suppose any of these young dancers can actually be one in that small % that do achieve their dream and that’s what keeps these young dancers and their parents and families going.  I think reading this book will assure me that my DD being realistic from an early age and just wanting to dance simply for the love of it (and nothing else) is the right path and that I should be pleased she insists on having at least 2-3 dance-free days (minimum) within the week and 1-2 weeks of dancing (maximum) in the summer 😂

[Beezie]

@Neverdancedjustamum I have exactly the same thoughts.  My daughter is starting to scale back in pursuit of things that are more academic….coupled with realizing she is no longer the best in her ballet class.  She is so smart!  It is the right decision.  But had she kept throwing herself into ballet, I think I would just follow along in a Mama-bear you-can-do-anything manner…..and continue to spend large amounts of time and resources to do so.

 

I still wish there was a middle ground between recreational and professional.  My daughter really wants to participate in productions (beyond recital)….but it is hard to do that unless you are fully committed.  

[Jan McNulty]

If you do a search on Robb, a number of links come up for reviews of the book.

[Beezie]

Or perhaps said better: I wish there was a way for dancers to feel accomplished and fulfilled in the middle ground between recreational and professional.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

5 minutes ago, Beezie said:

Or perhaps said better: I wish there was a way for dancers to feel accomplished and fulfilled in the middle ground between recreational and professional.

I know exactly what you mean. It’s a tricky balance. It’s a hard place to be. My DD cut down big time since Christmas to the point she didn’t have any in studio ballet classes at all within the week which was a worry for me as she attends quite a competitive associates scheme in the weekend where she is amongst amazing and focused young dancers some of whom are in full time vocational school. My DD’s dancing hours are actually less than what would be called ‘recreational’. I have to tell you, I actually dreaded watching day for probably just the second time ever in my life. In a way, I needn’t have worried. She was absolutely fine and I think a big part of it was because she was dancing knowing there were no expectations from me and there was absolutely no pressure of any sort at all. And when you dance that freely, I think your strengths show (the weaknesses did as well, but she knows about these 😂 and she knows I know). For us I think a good middle ground is trying to keep some of the more competitive elements of dancing that will keep them on their toes. For example, she’s auditioning for something that I personally know she has no chance of getting but it will be good experience for her. She will be the youngest and it will be so outside her comfort zone but she’s ready to take it as a challenge. Every so often, she decides she wants to attend summer intensives and we often go for ones I don’t think she will get so when she does it’s always a good surprise. She will then be among very good dancers in these intensives that I think she will be forced to bring her A game. Within the week she is just a school girl, a teenager. I have to thank my DD for making it easy for us in being in this ‘middle ground’, she is a masterclass at compartmentalising her life. For example, no one in her academic school even knows she dances. And yet her weekends are full of it. My fear now (in a selfish way) is that in a year or two she might change her mind and decide to go all out and audition for schools. It’s so easy to get influenced when she’s often surrounded by brilliant dancers who are so focused and seem to know what path they want to follow in the dance world. 

[drdance]

The university dance scene has really exploded in the last few years - lots of unis now have dance societies and it can be very competitive. Something to consider in the hunt for that 'middle ground'!

[Beezie]

@drdance

Maybe all these young men and women getting degrees in dance can propel higher levels of amateur dance.  I continue to think it is a good business model.  The ‘dance studio’ realm may be a bit overcrowded in some areas.  But there is still a lot that could be done with regard to amateur productions.  When I see this done in the US, parents pay the equivalent of class time (hrs rehearsing charged similar to class hours.)

 

I also think amateur performances may be more rewarding for teens and teachers.  The teens have a final production that feels like an accomplishment, in and of itself….and get to live out a bit of the dream they’d otherwise strive for in a professional career.  The teachers get to try their hand in choreography and large-scale show production….which seems like it would be a resume builder for many other things.

 

Think I’ve planted this seed before in a thread, but I’d completely do this if I didn’t have my current job!  (Not the choreography….I’m not a dancer.  But I’d pull together the business model and pair with a couple talented dance graduates.)

[Fiz]

My dd was devastated when her dance then drama ambitions came to nothing. She does a lot of amateur theatre, mainly dancing and singing. We watched her in a show last night. She looked so good! She’s medium height but really noticeable onstage plus when she was dancing, all her movements were clean, precise and ended off neatly. Her dance training is still there. It was a pleasure to watch her last night. I thought a lot about her lovely dance teacher too who unfortunately passed away on holiday a few years ago. More to the point was our daughter looked liked she was having a really good time and was radiant with pleasure when she came out of the theatre. There is life after dance classes. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

40 minutes ago, Fiz said:

My dd was devastated when her dance then drama ambitions came to nothing. She does a lot of amateur theatre, mainly dancing and singing. We watched her in a show last night. She looked so good! She’s medium height but really noticeable onstage plus when she was dancing, all her movements were clean, precise and ended off neatly. Her dance training is still there. It was a pleasure to watch her last night. I thought a lot about her lovely dance teacher too who unfortunately passed away on holiday a few years ago. More to the point was our daughter looked liked she was having a really good time and was radiant with pleasure when she came out of the theatre. There is life after dance classes. 

I totally agree with you. Come to think of it, the most radiant and happy I’ve seen my DD dancing have been during her high school’s annual dance show. It’s meant to be a competition between houses but everyone takes it in a very good natured congenial way, and they all end up having the time of their lives. I suspect only a very few small minority who participate dance seriously outside of school (her school seems to place more importance on those who excel in sports and all students are highly academic) but everyone gets into it and the atmosphere and buzz around it is an amazing vibe. We always look forward to it every year. It’s the only time my DD’s two loves coincide. 

[DingDongDancer]

On 24/06/2023 at 10:18, drdance said:

The university dance scene has really exploded in the last few years - lots of unis now have dance societies and it can be very competitive. Something to consider in the hunt for that 'middle ground'!

This is interesting - do you know of any examples i can look at? We aren't quite at this stage yet but my daughter loves dance and is also quite academic - this could be the perfect compromise for her xx

[Lifeafterballet]

13 minutes ago, DingDongDancer said:

This is interesting - do you know of any examples i can look at? We aren't quite at this stage yet but my daughter loves dance and is also quite academic - this could be the perfect compromise for her xx

My daughter is at UWE, Bristol and they have a Dance society. It’s split into Ballet, Contemporary, Jazz and Hip Hop. They compete with other universities. 
You can follow them on Instagram. 
My daughter didn’t want to dance again after 8 years of vocational ballet training so she joined the Cheerleading Squad and has had a fantastic time. 
She has just won the award for the most dropped Flyer 🤣 It has been very helpful with overcoming the fear of injury that ballet creates.

[academicdancer]

5 hours ago, DingDongDancer said:

This is interesting - do you know of any examples i can look at? We aren't quite at this stage yet but my daughter loves dance and is also quite academic - this could be the perfect compromise for her xx

Most universities have dance societies. They way they run them will be different - some only do classes (which can be student taught or they hire teachers), some only do competition teams and some do both!

The way the competition teams are run is also very different between universities. Some have advanced and intermediate teams in all levels (ballet, tap, jazz, contemporary and street) and some only have one team per genre. Some audition for teams separately and some audition for a competition "squad" where they look for dancers who can compete in multiple genres to have an overall smaller competitive team. It depends how much (if any!) funding they get from the university. If they are considered a sports club they usually get funding but as it is limited they limit their competitive members.

 

I have been a student for a looong time (undergrad, masters and PhD) at 3 different universities and I've been involved in dance at all of them in different ways. I only did competitive teams throughout my undergrad - it was so much fun. We got to travel around and compete at some huge competitions. There should be quite a lot of university dance comp videos on YouTube going back since ~2015.

 

Happy to answer more specific questions.

[Dance*is*life]

I think the most important reason for continuing in the dance world is because you love it.  My husband's accountant asked him when I was going to retire from teaching and my lovely hubby told him - For her, teaching is not just a job, it's her passion. As long is she still loves it and is physically capable of teaching, she won't retire!  How well he knows me, bless him.  

[LinMM]

One of my favourite teachers was still teaching at 92!! It was his passion too which he never lost. 
There is a lot of Amateur ballet going on these days giving dancers a chance to perform if they want to. 
It doesn’t necessarily have to be attached to a college or Uni though. 
Bristol for example has quite a bit of adult ballet going on in the community which is nothing to do with the Uni ….including performing opportunities using pointe work etc.