Going Back to ballet continued...

[LinMM]

Yes I wanted to clarify its not a strict syllabus class as its for adults but this teacher does do syllabus classes for children etc. and although she is no spring chicken she can still jump fantastically!! And has those lovely feet usually seen in trained dancers. Ive only watched the class and would now like to have a go. It's a bit late doesn't start till 8pm.....just about the latest would want to do a class but its quite dancey.

 

If you are fit I see no reason why you shouldn't do as many as you feel okay with sometimes you injure yourself more doing less as the muscles aren't used to the stresses of ballet but Ive been building up gradually and when I hit 5 a week will probably be happy with this.

[LinMM]

Five classes a week I hasten to add not by the day!!

[Michelle_Richer]

Yes but this girl is greedy and doesn't know where to stop. I does concern me a bit as my knee is not really getting a chance to heal as fast as I thought it would, only three classes today though. Non of my classes are syllabus classes, however several are roughly based on them, one class we get late teen students as part of their exam prep by their teacher.

 

I really not concerned too much with formal academic standards, for me it about dancing and interpretation, potentially I'm always looking for elegant movement I can add to my own repertoire of sequence's, together with sequences from the classics. I'm first and foremost a dancer, dancing is something I live, it comes from deep down, anyway I have a whole wall in my study at home plaster with academic qualifications from my working life. This time now is for me.

[Michelle_Richer]

Added in the newly formed Lincoln Adult and Teen Ballet class on Monday, my two other older ladies were no older than mid twenties, they were from our previous class at Lincolnshire Dance, the rest were teens. There were eight of us including me. The class is held in the Performing Arts building at Bishop Grosseteste University on the North side of Lincoln.

 

My Monday afternoon class turn out to be interesting from the point of view we did a new move ate the barre that I hadn’t heard of before, “Enveloppe”, in other words a developpe reversed. At least that was the way it was taught. I see it does not get a mention in my Video Dictionary of Classical Ballet; however it is mentioned Gail Grant’s Technical Manual and Dictionary of Classical Ballet but the description is somewhat different. For me it’s not a particularly elegant movement.

Another surprise from that class: The have a Summer school the week after I return from my Chelsea Ballet Summer School, however I will at least get one weekend break between all four (LAB Summer Intensive, City Academy Swan Lake, Chelsea Ballet, Welland School of Dance).

 

Was at ENB last night, only one week left of this term before we all have to reapply again for the new courses, if I don’t get in I will really miss that place.

[Fiz]

Tell me about the summer school! Maybe I could stay with my daughters and do it!

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Fiz

 

I have email you the documents that were sent to me yesterday. I have checked their website but it only has 2011 Summer School details on it.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[Fiz]

Got it! Thanks once again

[LinMM]

I'm sure you'll get in Michelle but if not or there is a Tuesday gap till summer term starts you can always have a go at Chelsea Ballet Masterclass held at the Place once a month. The June one is on 25th June and will be taught by the teacher taking the Summer School Richard Ramsey. This month it starts a bit late at 8.30(usually its at 8pm) so will have to make a mad dash at the end to get the train back to Brighton! But it is a nice class.

[Michelle_Richer]

Thanks Lin

 

You are so right, the summer term doesn’t start until the 8th July, and so I should be able to make that one. It will also be an opportunity to take in Dance works between 6 – 7pm, and then I can still do the majority of my time at Pineapple. Only fly in the ointment is, I have a Trustee meeting for my old company to be held in London some time this month, but I don’t have a date. I’ve requested the date but no email response today.

 

Only snag with ENB with most classes being over subscribed, is, you must book the course as soon as the notifications go live, and I want to do two on the same night(Tuesdays). The day I was worried about was yesterday, as I leave home at 8.30-8.45am but don’t get back home until just before 1.00am the following day, also I don’t carry anything with internet access, so if the bookings go live during that period, I simply don’t know. According to an old email from them, the notifications should be issued this week. So its just fingers crossed.

[Thecatsmother]

I have been reading this thread and it has made me think a lot about some of the key factors which I have seen in adults who have made good progress when coming to ballet for the first time. I always say practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent so it is important to focus on the key fundamentals of technique before pushing on to more advanced classes. I see many adults who for some reason seem to be so focused on quantity of classes and being in the highest level that they do not stop to think about whether this is really helping them become the best dancer they can be. The key elements which I would consider important for progress as an adult are:-

 

-Gaining a sound basic technique before moving to harder classes. It is often useful to get the teacher's feedback as to whether they think someone is ready to progress. They can often give a more objective view.

-Dance conditioning exercises to strengthen muscles combined with stretching.

-Developing musicality.

-Developing a sense of flow within exercises so one movement links to the next and is not just a series of steps.

-Working on steps which are fitting with ability. It is not safe for an adult to progress to harder work unless they have a firm foundation.

-Patience.

-Quality not quantity. Doing one class focusing upon sound technique is far more beneficial than multiple classes which can encourage the development of bad habits.

-Enjoyment-respect the teacher but also ensure they provide a class which allows you to dance and have fun.

-Learning through observing others in the class.

-Don't try to run before you can walk. Ensuring you develop the basics is key to injury prevention and progression in the long term.

-Whilst teachers do not always know everything, a good teacher should advise students as to when they believe the classes they are attending are beyond their current level of ability.

-If the teacher gives little feedback in class then filming movements at home should assist in getting a sense of what is working and what is not.

-Most important is finding a teacher who respects the adults they teach and makes dancing fun as ultimately enjoyment of dance is the crucial factor which will enhance motivation.

 

It takes years to train a dancer. For an adult this challenge is even greater. Enjoy the journey but building technique is like building the foundations of a building. If you do not have a firm foundation and allow the cement to set, whatever you place on top of this will be insecure and increase risk of injury.

 

Ballet should be fun but the importance of the aspects raised should not be underestimated. Most of all do not become so fixated upon the intricacy of steps that you forget how to actually dance rather than do steps.

 

Happy dancing...

[Anjuli_Bai]

.....and don't be afraid.

[Fiz]

Class last night as barre work in the centre, without a barre! Argh! It was hard going. The studio is air conditioned but we were dripping by the end and N took pity on us and we did a floor barre at the end. Happy days

[Anna C]

Welcome to the forum, Balleteacher. :-)

[LinMM]

Thanks Balletteacher for your first post.....and I do agree with most of the above

 

I would say however that in Going Back to Ballet there are lots of people who are not actually coming to ballet for the first time. People have had varying degrees of experience in younger years ranging from just a couple to having reached nearly professional level training at some stage before giving up. There are usually less people coming back to it who have had no previous experience at all and are thus complete beginners.......and even then it depends on age!! Completely new who are in their twenties is different to completely new who are in their fifties or sixties!!

Also previous level of general physical fitness through other activity which could also even be some other form of dance all makes a contribution as to likely speed of progression.

I do agree personally with building up gradually and getting the basics but in a way I've found that Ballet has its own built in limitations......eg a complete beginner who turned up to an intermediate session would naturally be put off and seek an easier class as it would just be too frustrating for them!!

In my own case for example I did a lot of ballet up to the age of 15.....the last exam I took was the old RAD elementary.

I then had a break of about 7 years came back as very fit twenty something for about 15 years(no syllabus classes though) then gave up,again and had a near twenty year break before re taking up again (now in 60's) just over two years ago.

This return was much more difficult as had very low fitness level......because of this only did one class a week for long time.......but on the other hand somewhere there is a muscle memory of all the ballet previously learned. So now have got a reasonable degree of fitness back I am starting to progress quite fast again and have been able to add more classes (4 a week at mo) quite quickly in last six months because I have the advantage over a genuinely complete beginner in this muscle memory thing.....it is easier to link steps together and learn an enchainement etc which beginners who may be good now on the barre work but not so good in the centre practice as they will not have had that previous experience.

In one class I go to there are some complete beginners (of 2 yrs ago )who are younger and much more flexible and are good at jumping!! (How I am envious!) but I still end up helping them with enchainement s which on the whole I pick up quickly.....for reasons mentioned.

 

 

So all this to say that most of the above(Balletteachers post) is good advice but there is always a bit of a mixed bag in recreational Adult Ballet classes!!

Anjuli has the excellent advice too for true adult beginners who may not be so familiar with the ballet world on the other thread where I am awaiting her expertise on pointe work ......even though for me now...never again!!!

[Michelle_Richer]

Wow Ballet Teacher

I hope you don’t mind but I am going to play devils advocate, especially as I am a relatively new comer to ballet and do a lot of classes and travelling in the pursuit of ballet every week.

 

Most of what you have said does make sense however there is an underlying assumption that may not be true: and that a sufficient time span is available.

 

Like Lin I’m in my 60’s, I know at some point my fitness will start to fail and bits will drop off so to speak. I’m highly driven and I have a lot to achieve between now and then. But in reality I know that time span isn’t forever and may only be for a few years.

 

My motivation is to dance, I’m a dancer first and foremost, if I can produce a pleasing presentation to that reflects the mood and movement of the music then I have happy sole even though it may not be technically 100% correct. Almost all music moves me and I really can’t understand people listening to it that appear frozen, and I see that everywhere.

If music really moves me, especially to tears, I usually go away and try and choreograph some ballet to it. I’m dancing such a piece tonight at on of my classes. I’m not sure how that’s fits into you model of the Beginner Adult Ballet Dancer.

 

For me the large number of classes gives me the widest range of experience and potential new movements for my own choreography. And above all I love it.

 

As for running and Walking, I will always try to fly, I’m always pushing my boundaries and I never live in a comfort zone, I’m just not made that way.

 

Dance Teacher relationship:

This is a bit of a tricky one, firstly many adult dancers at my local class go for recreation and teachers are sometimes reluctant to provide very much in the way feedback so as not to put off or offend, that point has been mentioned a time or two from some of my teacher to me.

For me at any first meeting I make a point that I positively want feedback, good or bad. I work with the teacher on that. Another point I make, at the end of class as a point of courtesy I thank the teacher and the pianist too if we have one, it makes it that much more personal, that’s weather we do a reverence or not. I try and keep that relationship close, more like a partnership, for me that work’s well and I can always go back for extra help weather its class related or not. I have some really fantastic teachers and a few that are a little less enthusiastic, but that’s human nature.

 

Well BalleTeacher: I do think we agree on your last paragraph.

 

I love Anjuli’s comment: “Don’t be afraid” that is just so so true. For a number of years I taught Salsa and I remember one guy who did the beginner’s class 7 or 8 times but just did not have the confidence to go out on the dance floor and dance. When we used to start a new class with absolute beginners, the couple that ran the school would start with the new students and I would get this guy to take on one side, as he basically knew the moves. He would only ever dance in the sequence he had learnt, and if he made a mistake he would stop and apologies rather than dance through it. I would often ask him to dance during our social breaks, then purposely almost remain rigid for him to lead me. I never did get him to go to an actual dance.

 

For me I love new venues, two groups of dancers I look out for. The organisers as they can usually dance well, and I love to christen the dance floor (first on it)with them, if it’s a couple then I dance with both. And the newbie’s, the couples sat in the corner, I think its wonderful go over to a couple ask the lady to dance then afterward take the guy on the dance floor, so when they go home, they can say they danced. I remember how difficult it was for me the first time.

 

Now I’m just an over the top extravert, so I make no apologies for my fast track ballet experience, it no longer a hobby for me, but a way of life.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[Moomin]

I agree with Lin that given the choice the majority would naturally gravitate towards a class of the right level as that is where they will feel most comfortable. Unless you are in a big city though there is usually no option but to join a 'general' class. Most people going to ballet have done at least a couple of years in the past and so the classes are not set up for complete beginners. I did a few years of ballet as a child and the basic technique is still there. I also think the needs of adults are rather different than those of children, the aim of dancing is not to become a professional or usually to take exams but just to enjoy and do the best that you can. I take one class which is about the right level and one which is far higher than my level purely because I love it and look forward to it all week!

[Thecatsmother]

I do agree that adults who have danced earlier in life are able to progress quicker as they have some of the foundations of ballet from early life. It is often the case that with maturity they discover other facets of dance that perhaps they were less aware of at a young age.

 

I believe ballet should be for everyone but with that comes the primary concern around physical safety of the student. In places such as London where there are a wealth of classes it is not a problem finding a class which is of the right level, I also agree that challenging self with an additional class which is a bit harder provides the chance of additional insight and helps dancers to make sense of what they are working towards.

 

With adults who are learning from scratch they usually are pretty good at judging or asking for advice as to when to progress to the next level. In a few cases this is not the case so I guess it raises the question-how does an adult know when they have developed sufficient technique to progress to harder steps. Sometimes the availability of classes is the determining factor but on other occasions there is room for reflection. Many students starting ballet struggle with confidence. A caring and supportive teacher who has experience of teaching adults can enhance confidence of adult beginners so they reach a point of shifting out of the state of paralysis which fear can induce.

 

There have been occasions when I have attended open classes and wondered what made certain individuals decide to do a class which is far too advanced. This makes me worry about the welfare of the student and the impact upon others in the class.

[Jan McNulty]

Welcome to the Forum, Balleteacher.  I look forward to reading your insights in other topics too.

[Fiz]

Oh, I forgot! Our teacher think I can actually do pose turns now! Wow!

[LinMM]

As Moomin said It is difficult for adult beginners to find classes at the right level sometimes.....often they are ina class which is either too easy or a bit too difficult because of what is on offer locally So do have to make the most of that situation. Its okay to keep concentrating on the basic technique say at the barre but it can be a bit boring to never get past simple jetes and assembles in the centre practice.......however at the other extreme suddenly been thrown into a class doing brise volees and grand jete en tournant can be a bit daunting for some.......although a good teacher can always simplify the material for those who,need it if necessary.

 

Luckily I do not have this problem personally as there is plenty of ballet on offer in Brighton where adults can take graded exams if they want to from grade one to grade seven!! So you can usually find your level in there somewhere! But at some point if you want to progress you may be doing things that are a little difficult for a while.

 

I agree about some London classes as even though some of them are levelled nobody seems to stick to them!! So for example once I attended a class which was supposed to be for beginners and there were three members of the Royal Ballet company in it!! So, you ask why were they in this class.....because of that particular teacher(who also taught at more advanced levels) But what happens when a beginners class is filled with much more advanced students is that the teachers then tend to teach to the people there and forget themselves that it's supposed to be a beginners class!! But if teachers genuinely kept the classes at beginners level the more advanced would gradually stop coming!

You do get the reverse though people trying a class which says Advanced/profess and they are really beginners. Though I would say this is more likely to happen where a class is labelled"General" . The teachers in these classes are more likely to teach up rather than down but I can see how some could be confused by this label......it usually actually means.....Intermediate- Professional!! Which a newby might not realise.

Anyway people have to try classes till they find the class and teacher that really suits them and this can take a while.

There is this risk of injury of course but if you watch people who are obviously in the wrong class they don't join in the difficult stuff(in the grand allegro section) and either leave at that point or just watch.

[Michelle_Richer]

Well I guess I’m a bit of a misfit or an anomaly then, as I am technically by your definition an adult beginner with no childhood ballet experience, yet my classes range from beginner to intermediate/advance, not only that but I do many of them. So I can only view the previous postings as generalities that definitely does not include the likes of me.

 

There are some common themes that intrigue me too, one of those is physical safety, and perhaps some of you would like to elaborate on that one.

One of my teachers for along time would not teach Pirouettes because of the elderly nature of many of her dancers, and the risk of injury due to dizziness and falling. Conversely another of my classes that teaches pirouettes, if you lost your balance and fell over, you were expected to get right on up and carry on, that action belongs to my mind set too.

 

Another theme is associated with levels, I think I would prefer to consider them as difficulties, these I think drop into three groups, firstly is the dancer physically capable to carry out that movement in terms of strength and flexibility. Secondly: Have they been able to acquire the muscle memory for that movement in class. Thirdly: Can they remember and work with combinations. The last two refers to training.

 

Muscle memory: comes from repartitions, most classes those repartitions are quite small irrespective of standard. For me if I have a problem with a new movement, I will take it home to my own studio, reference it to a video library and work it through thus providing the repartition to acquire that muscle memory. Further more a video library allows for studied analysis of that movement rather that a vague memory of the teachers presentation.

 

Combinational Work: Remembering sequences is a complaint I here from many dancers; I also have some difficulty with this one. Firstly one of the thing I and my fellow Salsa dance teachers recognise, is it takes at least 9 repartitions to form muscle memory and sequences are built up in easy digestible steps, usually a step or two at a time and then danced. These are element that I don’t often see in Ballet, however I have got some of my ballet teachers to introduce them and that works well.

 

One point that was made earlier about running and walking, one really good asset I have is one of my teachers that knows me well and the fact that I will often bite off a combination of steps from a classical ballet that is well above most of what my normal classes teach. She will try and make sure I understand the fundament techniques that under pin them, often she will also assist me in breaking them down.

 

 

I note Lin’s comment about dancer from the Royal Ballet being in a beginners class, during my Tuesday class at Pineapple we had a young man early to mid twenties, an absolutely fantastic dancer, I strongly suspected he was probably a professional slumming it, I even complemented him on his performance , it really was outstanding. But I do think if someone finds they are out of there depth they wont stay very long. I remember when I was still able to do the two classes at the Royal Opera House, one of the girls decided the Intermediate was too hard. I and about six others did both classes. I should soon be returning back to there after my Angles Theatre show is finished.

 

Wow Fiz: fantastic, well done, but you do surprise me, after all you did say once you could pirouette for England and pose turns are much simpler.

I had a nice result tonight with dancing my own choreography, only two mishaps, firstly my assistant (One of the girls was supposed to prop a flower in place at the right time and didn’t), she was so tied up in the story I was portraying through mime, at one point I ended on the wrong foot but was able to correct it. My teacher didn’t notice it. Both of them made the same remark that they were engrossed in the story rather that looking at my technique. I think I will have to take that as a complement. The sequence is not quite finished; I have just over three minute covered of a four minute track. However it has backfired a bit. When we all went out, a couple of girls and my teacher came to my car as I had two new Tutu’s from Just Ballet inside. Unknown to me our ballet school owner and principle was parked next to me; she came and had a look too. Now I’m tasked with dancing the full sequence of my choreography with her in attendance as well as the class and I have to be in my tutu, that really has moved things up a notch. Not bad for a hopeless beginner!

Edited June 7, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[Fiz]

There was something about pose turns that just threw me, Michelle. We do them travelling on a diagonal line and it's a big studio

[LinMM]

I think you are pretty unusual Michelle!! But in my slightly earlier post I did say that the rate of progression depends on many things including general fitness level and previous activity......including other dance experience......which you definitely have....which maybe why you can cope so quickly with doing more advanced classes.

Personality does come into it too. I would say I have a fairly cautious approach especially in new situations.....others throw themselves in with enthusiasm and don't mind challenges at all!

I would say though that a keen adult can progress much more quickly than a child but in normal circumstances it would still take 3-5 years to progress from a complete beginner to say Intermediate level! Some people are always outside the norm though!!

[Moomin]

That sounds great Lin, I was just thinking the other day how lovely it would be to go back a step and do some of the higher grades in sequence, it does make everything much easier to master. Sadly I don't think it's an option for me though. I agree that it's much easier to learn as an adult. I admire Michelle's energy, I am pretty tired and achey after one hour and a half class!

[Fiz]

I've never done a ballet exam. I went down with flu the day I was supposed to do my Grade one and I was so upset. I really wanted to do it

[Thecatsmother]

I know of quite a few adults who have found teachers willing to teach RAD Grade 6-8. This really teaches an adult how to dance as well as do steps due to the choreography. Grade 6 is much more tricky than grade 7 though due to complexity of choreography.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Fiz

 

Yes I understand the difficulty, that’s why I used to take my travelling turns to my Salsa Evening when there was a break in the dancing, as then I had a large floor space, much bigger than most studio’s. I think only my Peterborough class tends to do on the diagonal from corner to corner, but I only think we got about a dozen in. Most other classes they were one or two imbedded in a sequence.

 

One thing I haven’t done yet, but is high priority for my practice sessions at Pineapple after class, is travelling turns around the room, then mixed travelling turns around the room. These are wonderful fillers for my own choreography.

 

I really enjoyed my little performance last night at Footlight Performing Arts, the one thing I was worried about was pirouettes on their very slippery floor, its one of the most slippy that I know, but they turned out fine. I now have to find a way to conceal a flower that can be dropped when I go down into what looks like a pigeon pose (Right leg folded under left leg straight out fully on the floor), I mime sleeping in that pose, to awaken and find this flower, to do a similar thing to Giselle with “he love me, he loves me not”, as the music if have chosen is Chinese from the performer who operates in the square just outside the Royal Opera House, its called “Lovers tears” and as I might be dancing this at a wedding it has to have a happy ending.

 

Hi Lin

I think to a small degree my Salsa experience may made a small contribution, but I think more significantly is ones mindset. That comes from the confidence and self reliance gained in my working life.

 

 

General:

I think one point that comes into question is teaching: is it simple informal recreational Instruction or effective training.

My requirement I believe is effective training, however what is on offer is very much recreational instruction, in instructional technique terms is often referred to as “sitting next to Nelly”, simply means watch what I do and copy it. Dancers have no proper prior reference of what is likely to take place in the class or the desired results.

 

Some time ago I was asked by a couple of girls if they could come and practice ballet with me after our local class, as I have my own small studio. I said I would think about it, then went back to them and said only if we do it properly, then I told them what was involve and it would be in the form of a self help group. Firstly we would create a draft proposal covering each person’s desirers, baring in mind our limited recourses, then we could jointly agree and formulate it into a proper training plan.

 

That we did, and in project management terms represented our feasibility study. However we did limit the scope of our plan to mostly work at the barre, centre practice would only be on an add hock basis due to the limited space available, and basically as necessary, but we would include Port de bras and Reverence as good practice.

A self Help Group Training plan was drawn up, listing everything that was to be performed from warm-up through classical movements at the barre. The documentation for each barre movement followed the same format: Title of the Movement, External Reference usually to a Video dictionary listing its sectional reference, Definition, Principles, Rules and protocols, description, Aims, Purpose, Music and timing, Preparation, Breathing, Sequence implementation, Assessment checklist, Specific errors.

 

I created the plan as the founder member, the other two read and approved the plan so it could be put under configuration control before release.

 

 

Other criticism of have of current teaching is the remark made by several dancers, that class is very hard because of the trying to remember the sequence. In this situation many get by with learning as a herd, collectively you can execute the sequence but most may not remember all of it. I would ask this question as a result of this observation, how many in that class could dance that sequence solo the next day?

 

I find memory in this context being a limitation for dancers to progress to the next level, totally unacceptable when it is so easy to design out with the appropriate training method. Furthermore the reluctance to allow videoing in class of ballet work particularly of sequences, strange and down right wrong. This beyond any shadow of dought will enhance long term memory. It also provides a high quality reference if the recording is of an expert (your teacher). Sometimes you need to analyse, doing is not necessarily learning, it may not be right, later analysis gives scope for self correction.

 

Some ballet schools do allow it, most don’t, however I have persuaded one or two but progress in that direction is painfully slow.

 

In Salsa dance classes, building up sequences step by step and videoing the out come is the norm, it’s effective and works very well. It also offers value for money to the dancer learning.

[LinMM]

We all have certain things which for some reason we find more difficult. Pose turns are fine for me but not chainees.....I find it really hard to make them really neat and get the speed...together.....I either go fast and feet flapping around or I get them neat but am far too slow!!

I know I should relish the chance to practice them but whenever they come up usually to finish off a petit or grand allegro I think "oh no not chainees! What's wrong with pose or soutenus turns!"

 

There is one thing about levels which may need clarifying I think. Even within a graded setting....lets say grade6 as example....one can be working "at grade 6 level" without actually having achieved that level yet. There may be some who have just completed grade 5 so are new to the level some who are half way through the grade 6 some nearly ready to take an exam etc etc. so being in a grade 6 class is just a guide really.

For example I can cope quite well with an intermediate class but I wouldn't say have achieved that level yet (I can't work at 90 for a start!).

If anyone was taking an Advanced level exam for example whether RAD or BBO etc there are some pretty difficult things in there so you would really have to have mastered these things to call yourself advanced even though you may be able to stumble through an advanced level class. So having some reference to exams is useful if you really want to gauge where you are....even if you never intend to take an exam.

Now I'm NOT saying you need to pass exams to be able to dance!! And for most adults it's probably irrelevant but just to keep ones feet on the ground about appropriate level classes etc.

However I can see an advantage in a complete adult beginner with no exam history in not bringing any "baggage" to class and just getting on with the steps without too much concern which level of difficulty they are.....perhaps they will feel a little freer!!

In both of the non syllabus classes I do there is a repetition of certain sequences over a period of weeks before they are changed which is great for getting to grips with them so by the 4th-5th week you usually have some memory and can increase your degree of performance which is satisfying.....again so lucky with classes.

Unfortunately Michelle I don't agree with too much general videoing of classes. It's a great tool but should be done on an individual level for a specific purpose......otherwise I regard it as an intrusion into my privacy in a class. Obviously if your teacher is willing to let you video her doing some sequence that's fine. But except in very specific circumstances I would not like someone videoing me in a learning situation. For shows that's okay too......you are then agreeing to be on show giving a performance.....but not for classes sorry!

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin: I note your concern about being videoed in class and I understand that, perhaps I’m more relaxed about that as in the Salsa setting everyone gets videoed or photographed all the time, it’s the culture. I think also at Salsa party's, if you don’t get videoed or photographed it’s almost like not being there. However I do think its essential that it is permitted to video the teacher presenting the sequence steps. I would rather that be presented clearly, be able to take it home study it and be confident in dancing it fully through the following week, the mind then knows what the body must do, the body muscle memory is accumulated a little later.

 

I have for many years been heavily involved with training in a number of departments in my old company and also involved at the interview level too. Our training was very formal under strict configuration control and everything had to be verified and traceable.

My own staff as I was head of our Test Systems Design department had to have at least a First class honours degree and a first class masters before they ever got to see me for interview, they were very clever people and consequently expensive. So training had to be cost effective and applicable if they were to be productive in the short term, so basically we didn’t waste time but never the less there was substantial number of well thought out formal procedure that under pinned that process. The projects that my department was involved in, often ran into tens of millions, therefore we were simply not allowed to get things wrong. If there was a problem, it had no where to go other than my department, we were the design authority. Sometimes that meant we had to fly out overseas as several of our projects we concerned with the transfer of technology.

 

So I must be brutally honest and say although I enjoy the ballet classes I attend and value most of my teachers as personal friends, I do not regard them as a serious means of training and falls along way short of what I'm used to, so one has to begrudgingly make do.

 

My philosophy in life is not to work harder but to work smarter, although I do put my mind, body and sole into most things.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[Anna C]

I do hope none of your teachers are reading this thread Michelle; they may be a little offended if they think you are "begrudgingly making do" with their teaching and/or training methods!

[LinMM]

I am not sure I have fully understood what you meant Michelle when you say of your teachers"I do not regard them as a serious means of training" . How have you learned what you know so far then? Somebody must be getting something right if you say you attend some Intermediate/advanced classes!! You must be most unfortunate not to have ONE good teacher!! But perhaps you didn't quite mean that.

 

I must be extremely fortunate then because during the week I have four different teachers and they are all good in different ways giving very different classes and I have had really useful advice from all of them. If I did not value anyones teaching or thought they didnt know their stuff I would not continue with that class.

 

I'm sure you value your ENB classes and your Pineapple class at least as you've said how much you have enjoyed them and that some teachers have supported and advised you with choreography you are doing at the moment.

[Thecatsmother]

I would question whether some of the posts in this thread should be withdrawn. Whilst every individual is entitled to their own opinion, some of these posts do potentially identify highly respected teachers as class levels and respected orgnisations are mentioned. As a teacher, I would find these comments offensive and unecessary if I were talked about in this manner. It also reflects badly upon the ethos of the forum.

[Michelle_Richer]

Firstly I apologies if anyone feels offended but I hope this get people thinking, it not enough that we have always done it this way.

 

Well now that’s got everyone’s attention, we are talking about the efficiency of the delivery system (transfer of knowledge and technique)

 

Firstly: I have never seen any evidence of a comprehensive training plan covering the courses I attend and I have asked that of several or aims and objective of that course.

 

Secondly: I do not see any evidence of monitoring for quality control.

 

Thirdly: Difficult to find a measure of consistency between classes.

 

Fourthly: Little customer orientation in the most effective means of transferring and retaining of that knowledge, particularly in the take up of modern media that is accepted else where.

 

Fifth: Little or no documented evidence of measurement of performance of students acquired skills or results of student surveys.

 

 

Finally please understand, I’m not trying to rubbish anyone, in saying the existing system does not work, but consider there are better more effective ways of achieving the same thing in a lot less time. I have already given examples of this. This should never have been considered as a personal attack but thought provoking.