Momapalooza

1 hour ago, valentina said:

In September, there will be 4 students at RBS upper school who started their training at Tring, plus a 5th who has just graduated.

I don’t think all 4 have gone or would go straight to RBS upper from Tring? I’ve seen one incoming one and one who is now in second year but I don’t think either were at Tring from first form either. I am guessing the other two maybe started at Tring but moved to WL or other schools. But you’re right in that they did train for some time at Tring. It will be interesting to see apart from the one who has been announced as going to RBS upper how many of the recent graduates (this year and maybe last 2-4 years) went on to classical ballet schools such as RBS, Elmhurst, ENBS, Central and overseas classical ballet schools.  I have seen one girl go on to the Bolshoi but I don’t think she started or finished at Tring. Does Tring publish their graduate destinations? 

14 hours ago, PetitJeté said:

I haven’t read all the replies, but I’ve been thinking exactly the same @Momapalooza  My dd is a JA, and got to the WL finals this year, but it was a no. I feel now that perhaps I was naive in thinking they only look for potential (although this was what her JA teacher told me!), and have thought exactly what you said about the ones who got in looking ‘polished’ (although this is based only on the social media posts, as you say!). Although I appreciate that there may be others who don’t do social media, and may not be like this. My dd has only even done one show, and has never done a competition, so she won’t have the confidence in performance of others who are more experienced in this regard. I was a dancer myself, albeit only for a short while, but it feels like the whole thing is tougher these days! 

I personally feel this as well, how it's so much tougher these days.  I am just thinking 6 or so years ago and I don't think it was anywhere near like this.  I have been wondering why, I think a big part of it is obviously social media and everything is just so much more visible and the world so much smaller.  But it almost feels like ballet in general seems to have exploded in popularity and has become more "mainstream".  With this comes what feels like a more and more intense and frenzied audition preparation to get into full time training, almost the younger the better. I expect the volume of applications into lower schools have steadily grown larger and larger certainly in the last 3 years or so.

9 hours ago, BalletBliss said:

Same here.  We are one of this year's WL finals 'no's.  Although never a JA, I felt my dd would still stand a chance, based on potential and being considered one of the best in her ballet class of pre-selected girls.  (Although all of it basically ended last March, when the school closed and hasn't reopened to children's classes.  They tried their best by still keeping at it by giving a couple of weekly classes via zoom until summer holidays, but then closed completely.)  We are not part of a social world.  Through all these lockdowns and schools' struggles, I assumed the situation was the same for all ballet students.  Especially as all we hear is how different this year is in terms of fallen (!!!) standards.  Those like me, who don't use social media and just get all their info from BBC or local radio, just took it at face value.  When then, at the end of November, I learnt of WL and their auditions, I actually exclaimed to my dd, what a fantastic opportunity it is, now of all years (!) to try to audition for such a demanding institution.  What, with all the 'lowered' standards, dd would surely have a fair chance, as everyone else would have suffered lack of practice as much as she has!  How pathetically naive :)!  So all of December she practised herself alone in her bedroom, trying to remember all the routines they did in class and trying to work out, what exactly the auditioning list of exercises involved, as she learnt it somewhat differently.  I told her not to worry and just do whatever she knew how to, and that the auditioning panel would surely take it into account that all entrants are underpractised and are understandably below expected standard...  I then filmed her at home on the last day before the deadline and, miraculously, she got through to the finals.  This reinforced my believe that this year must indeed be different in 'lowered standards' sense (I didn't realise of this forum's existence yet or had any contacts with the ballet community to be guided in any way), and dd just continued on whatever she could do to herself, going over routines she still remembered.  Then a few zoom ballet classes were added to her already busy academic/extra-curricular schedule, when by chance we found one of her former teachers doing it online to groups of 8-10 girls, but that was that. 

 

Now, from finding this forum and this thread in particular, I do begin to learn of a completely different world out there that I had no idea about.  It is so very interesting and enlightening!  Were I aware of all the issues highlighted in this thread, I would probably never had entered WL auditions at all, realising that dd would probably never stand a chance in the first place in light of such high quality, intense training happening backstage that we had not only no access to, but not a clue about.  But then again, were we to have a glimpse of it all beforehand, it would totally paralise us to even try as, being a low-income family, we could never afford such training anyhow.  Whatever it is worth for, it must have been for a good reason that we were so totally blind and super naive at the time, and went for it with open minds and brave hearts.  It gave dd a great experience of auditioning, of the historic WL - an absolutely gorgeous place, breathtaking nature of the Richmond Park, flocks of stunning deer.  Ignorance is indeed bliss!                     

 I am so pleased you went for it, and yes, ignorance can be bliss.  I personally wish I haven't been on social media the last few years.  At the same time, it's also good that you have now seen and experienced what you have this year.  Although the last year has been very different, I still think the trend will continue and auditions will be more frantic and frenzied in the coming years.  There are definitely kids out there who have been training for at least the last 2 or so years solely with the goal of gaining a place in vocational school in mind.

Your DD has done amazingly well, especially if she is not a JA.  There are very few non-JAs who get a place in WL at Year 7 certainly in the last few years.  I suspect those who are not are either from overseas or have had very high quality pre-vocational training prior to starting Year 7 and are most likely associates for other programmes/schools.  Happy to be corrected here.  It does make sense for their incoming groups to be predominantly JA though as I assume the programme was started to feed into their full time school.

There are certainly still schools out there, I know of some overseas, whose auditions I think are carefully designed to look more at physical suitability and potential for entry at Year 6/7.  Apart from basic exercises to check for musicality, the audition is more a check of whether or not the child would fit into their kind of training.  These schools appear to me, my personal opinion, looking more for blank slates with the right ingredients to mold into their specific kind of training.  I quite like this idea, because a child of 10/11 still has so much growing and changing to do.  This also places less emphasis on prior training or performance experience.  Somehow, it feels more like an even playing field. No need for intensive training before auditions, no need for fancy photographs, etc.  Ironically, I think these are also the same schools where a high percentage of students who enter in the lower years go on to the higher years, on to their junior companies and finally their companies.

19 minutes ago, rowan said:

I agree with much of what you’ve said in your longer post,@DD Driver. And when it all is going well, I agree with what’s been said above. But at some point parents must be aware that, for some, the journey becomes harmful, the discipline becomes bullying, the etiquette means not speaking out, doing what you’re good at becomes doing what you’re not good enough at, developing your brain becomes developing self-esteem issues, and hard work doesn’t produce any results at all. And parents may not be aware, because their child might not tell them.

 

When mine was younger, I sometimes used to look at the American ballet forum. I found it hard to believe the huge numbers of hours people were training in dance, on schedules that seem normal there, even for recreational students, but are really unheard of here, the home schooling purely to fit in “enough” hours of dance training, the worry over which level of dance you were in, the insistence on the “essential” very long summer intensives, often more than one, the obsession with YAGP, traineeships, the sheer expense of it all. I thought there was no way my child could ever compete with all that, because all American dance students must be so advanced. I had to stop looking at that site. It was irrelevant to what we could do at home with the resources and opportunities we had. We could do only what we could do.

I became curious with the American way of training too @rowan One of my DCs was offered scholarships to a couple of “full time” virtual places for pre-professional training (I think this is what they are called? And yes, I too was surprised such a thing existed virtually!) and when I looked at the timetables, they were actually during the day time! I did query this and it looks like most who undertake serious training are home schooled to be able to squeeze all the training hours in. We had to decline them because despite the time difference, the timings still encroached on school hours here or are too late at night! I did wonder how they managed to train so many hours. 
 

I think Australia might have a culture of home schooling too for those who are training seriously. However, from what I’ve heard, it’s all very structured with a set timetable within the school. Most DC are able to train good full time hours while still living at home. And even for those preparing to go into the big schools there, there are good pre-vocational programmes all within the same school and students normally just attend other schemes similar to associates. Friends in Australia, not making a sweeping comment, has told me that as far as they know there is no culture of going to multiple schools and teachers In their area anyway. even when they have privates with another teacher, these are those who specialise in just privates and would need the permission of the main dance school before they would teach anyone. 

10 minutes ago, rowan said:

I agree with everything @Harwel says. Regard ballet as a hobby. Anything else, madness lies. I’d almost say to not wish it upon your child. There can be so much damage done.

 
Regarding potential, as I’ve said before on here, I never stopped wondering if mine had any potential until the job offers came in. (Did not go to vocational school at all, was turned down for everything RBS, never had any private lessons or did a competition or any prestigious summer schools.) We regarded it as a serious hobby in her teen years, and I certainly expected nothing to come of it when she went off auditioning for jobs. 

I  very much like the idea of ballet as a hobby. I often have open conversations with DC and am honest enough to admit that if it were up to me, I’d rather DC consider auditioning at age 16. Part of this is because, based on my first hand experience alone, I find kids age 10/11 hardly know what they really want and are easily influenced by big names or what others want. Mine change their mind about most things every week! I don’t want DC, if by some miracle they get the opportunity to go away full time, to realise 1-2 years down the line that it isn’t what they wanted but then would be too guilty or hesitant to let me know because they know full well how much we have possibly invested (in the limited amount we can)  in getting them there, or for fear of others thinking they are giving up or are failures. I think that at age 16, they are more mature physically, mentally and emotionally and have a better gauge of what they want to do with the next couple of years of their life at least.  I also think that by that age, their bodies are more like what they would be as an adult, and is a better gauge of whether they might actually still have what it takes physically to go the classical route. 

18 minutes ago, Fudge said:

My Dd stepped off this mad rollercoaster at the end of Year 11 she had places at 3 Upper Schools. It is not a level playing field at all...... I do wish my Dd had stayed at home until 16 in a nurturing environment.  For those of you starting the vocational school journey be honest about how it is going and keep talking.  We sat down each summer and discussed if this was what Dd still wanted.  It is very easy to get caught up in it all, and not want to get left behind. Many of Dd's peers were doing multiple Summer Schools... Easter Courses ... private lessons.... extra associate classes on top of vocational school to try and get noticed - it doesn't come cheap.

This is my priority @Fudge, that all my DCs remain in a nurturing environment and there is no doubt in my mind that this is at home. It is of course a big factor if DC dreams big and is actually given the opportunity, pros and cons would need to be weighed but for me, personally, I do not want to miss any second of their growing up years. I know that someday they will move away but if I had my way I would try and delay this as much as possible as long as this doesn’t hinder their big dream AND provided it is actually their dream and not anyone else’s (me included).

7 minutes ago, Harwel said:

I have just been drawn down the rabbit hole of this thread - I rarely visit here anymore since my DS left the ballet world (I thank God everyday for that day!).  I feel the anxiety of the new parents just entering this world who want to try to explain everything, find a reason for everything, justify everything.  I think you are just finding out that NOTHING about the ballet world has anything to do about a level playing field (I genuinely don’t think anything in this world does).

 

 I strongly suggest you read some of the threads about the beautiful dancers who have gone through vocational school systems and come out utterly broken.  There are some on here, there are some 

on Instagram there are some on YouTube.  I truly wish all the beautiful young hopeful dancers get what they want and live a life of roses and sunshine - unfortunately this will not happen.  Many who have just got into vocational school will never make it to senior school and even fewer will make it a career. Some who were unsuccessful at gaining a place this year will actually do better by being nurtured at home and may find success later.  
 

What is this training for?  To get a job in a ballet company? Honestly, save your energy, stop comparing, stop blaming uneven playing fields, north south divides (never heard anything so nutty - can’t think a company AD gives a flying monkeys where someone is from given all the international hires).  Focus on your child’s needs, make them mentally strong, teach them to understand their worth in this world away from ballet.  If a ballet career is for them it will happen. if not, be grateful they will be super successful elsewhere. 
 

The standards are incredibly high, and increasing every year. No one gets a place if they are not incredibly gifted physically.  The training is intense and only a tiny minority can take it (a tiny % of those accepted at year 7) classical dancers are elite athletes that are born for the role.  
 

There is no level of training given by any 3rd party that will confer enough talent, dedication, physical attributes to a child that has not been born with those attributes.  If a child with those attributes does not get the level of training to bring it out then unfortunately a dance career is not their destiny. However, that training does not have to happen to gain a year 7 place. 
 

Enjoy your child’s successes, help them recognise the talent and dedication of others.  It seems to me the biggest challenge to our younger generation is mental health - make them mentally strong to face life in general.  Ballet will be a footnote in most of our children’s lives. 

Thank you @Harwel I was actually just reading through a couple of other threads on this forum and combined with what stood out for me the most in your post (the last sentence), it really has helped me get a good dose of reality. After hearing and reading about other people’s experiences too, I do think I know how to manage DCs expectations and hope that DC sees the reality too - hopefully before the “should I or should I not audition” decision.  I have my personal thoughts and preference on this (I like a quiet and easy life) but I am going to go with what DC wants.  

6 minutes ago, TwoDancers said:

I do think it’s important to remember that this last year has been really different aswell. Dance schools offered varying levels of classes through zoom during the Lockdowns (some had a super limited timetable, or offered nothing, some offered a full timetable etc), so naturally people may have looked elsewhere ... and there was lots available! Anyone with access to social media could find free ballet classes or teachers offering new online classes for all age ranges.

And it’s also important to consider that just because multiple schools are posting the success of these children, doesn’t necessarily mean the children are “still” doing classes with them .... maybe it’s an opportunity for that teacher/dance school to celebrate that they’ve had some part in that child’s training at some point over the last couple of years or so??

Maybe this is naive of me, but I am super wary of social media!!

 

This may well be the case and you’re right there was and still is a wealth of free ballet classes through social media. However I do think there is a difference between “follow along” classes and actual classes and I think the reference on this thread is more about actual classes where teachers can feedback to students. 
 

And of course it’s also true that perhaps some were posts from previous schools or teachers celebrating past students’ successes as this does happen often too but I believe this thread is more to do with those who appeared to have been training quite at a very high level and frequency (for example, those who have been posted multiple times a week doing various classes with several different teachers whether ballet, stretch etc).  Don’t get me wrong, I believe if we could do this we would as well! Especially leading up to auditions. Why not try to maximise and complement existing potential leading up to auditions. It does make sense.  The sad reality is that not everyone can do this, especially not a sustained level over a few months. And one of the the purposes of this  discussion is whether people think this alters the playing field or not. It is hard reality that depending on family situation, not everyone can access the same training. 
 

Social media I think just highlights this disparity. Only time will tell whether this trend will continue and whether child A who has potential but very minimal training (and can only do exercises at home as there is no available or affordable training classes) is actually on a level playing field with child B who has potential but also able to take lots of quality ballet classes and associates with multiple teachers/schools, complemented with other training such as conditioning, strengthening (in a formal class setting with a teacher).

5 minutes ago, Motomum said:

You have taken my comment out of context, ‘the rest’ was made by @The red shoes, not me.

The point of a discussion is that it moves and flows through many different points of reference as this one is doing.

This is not about right or wrong it is about the changing platform of ballet training, all POV are valid and interesting.

If we all just ‘moved on’ there would be no forums like this and no interesting discussions like this one.

 

Precisely this. But for families who will have to make extra sacrifices to help their DC achieve their dream, perhaps more than others, it is good to go into this with open eyes. To go blindly is to assume that because your DC has been told to have heaps of potential and works really hard with what DCs got that’s it’s a level playing field. What if the family situation dictates that you cannot easily access quality training? That the nearest school is a small one that only does syllabus and exams every so often? that the nearest associate centre is miles away and the family cannot afford to send DC weekly. Parents have no dance background therefore cannot guide accordingly. The teacher isn’t really used to preparing students for auditions. There are no exercises assigned to improve and strengthen, no programme as such. I would not trust a 9/10 year old to Google or YouTube exercises (possible, but could be dangerous). I wouldn’t trust myself to do this. I do believe in the last year that there has been a distinct shift of something I can’t put my finger on, could be due to the pandemic and rise of online delivery, but I cannot deny that for me this seems to be the case. Again my personal feeling only. 

1 minute ago, Motomum said:

All credit to your son, in defence though of the OP, your son and children like him are not the focus of this discussion.

It is not an attack on those children who don’t do extra, or an attack on those that do.  
It seems to me it is a very valid discussion about the trend toward more and more of everything when it comes to dance. It maybe distasteful but it is a valid discussion about children who are 8/9/10 being polished dancers because of privates, intensive ballet training and hot housing toward entry into competitions like YAGP, PDL and entry into prestigious vocational training schools.

The discussion doesn’t detract from these children’s achievements it asks whether potential is really what’s being assessed anymore.

This years WL intake is very relevant because many of the children whom we know have trained differently and more intensively and more than has been so in the past that I can remember, and this matters because it altars the playing field, altars it massively.

 

Thank you @Motomum.  You managed to brilliantly express what I originally intended to be a valid discussion. I fear  I’ve upset some due to my inability to maybe get across what I was trying to say x

I think I’ve created a storm in a teacup here which was not my intention at all. I just want to reiterate that I never said these children didn’t get in on their own merits. Quite the opposite - the ones I’ve seen are stunning and appear very polished, amazingly trained, with all the seemingly right ingredients (plus hardwork, determination etc). Of course they got in on their own merits because at the end of the day it’s them who go into a studio in front of a panel regardless of training so each and every one completely deserve their place otherwise they wouldn’t have been offered it.  So yes, perhaps it’s my mistake for being misled by things I see on social media as they aren’t an accurate reflection of what might be reality. And yes, I don’t know the situation of these people despite maybe encountering a few in this very small world. Maybe this year is actually reflective of previous years and it’s just me suddenly noticing things that aren’t there because of undue worry with the year or two ahead. Bottom line is there was absolutely no intention to be distasteful or to take anything away from any deserving individuals. I am sure the situation is the same as before, and everyone has an equal chance, regardless of means. Based on a lot of comments on this thread, the most likely response to my original title is therefore, “yes”, which bodes well for everyone who has potential regardless of region, means and quantity of training. 

13 minutes ago, No Clue Dance Mum said:

I have just signed up rather than lurk on these forums because of this thread.

My DC auditioned this year and got on waiting lists, one of which is for RBS (very shocked about that, but then I know nothing about dance😖).

They are fortunate that they do associate classes but we can’t afford to send them to a more dedicated dance school or travel to one. I have often wondered if not being able to afford the extra lessons and give them the same opportunities others are fortunate to have would be detrimental. I guess we will never know.

Not knowing anything about this whole process and only came across this forum a week ago, does anyone know if everyone who doesn’t get offered a place at RBS goes on to the waitlist and is a gentle rejection or if there is actually any chance of that waitlist becoming an actual offer? 

It does happen! Just depends on the year, it varies 

58 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

Thank you so much for saying this @SissonneDoublee I find these threads bordering on uncomfortable in the way they speculate about and discuss some children via hearsay, not first-hand experience. Fair enough to post about one's own DC, and share that first-hand experience, but I find the speculation about other children, about whom posters know very little at first-hand, close to distasteful.

I’m sorry you feel this way. It was not my intention to make comments based on hearsay nor did I intend to be distasteful. I actually avoided mentioning specific schools, clearly stated that my observations were based on information easily seen by any other on social media, and did not speculate on anyone’s situation. The ballet world is very small, it’s hard not to encounter, perhaps even first hand on some occasion, these things. 

In line with @Jan McNulty’s amended title, I did wonder this weekend how many post year 7s (years 8, 9 etc) WL will take. Also I wonder if for this year only, there would be less internationals to finals due to the travel restrictions. 
 

Related to this, I read somewhere on this forum that there is a new 3-year training guarantee for the incoming year 7s. I do think this will make people think twice about applying for years 8 and 9 next year?  I would have thought there would be very little, if no, movement. 
 

Anyone who would consider trying again must realistically aim for entry at Year 10. Now at this age I think international families would be more okay with sending their DCs to board overseas. Also, one must consider whether they can sustain training that is almost at par with vocational schools for 3 years to even a stand a chance against the internationals. There are so many stunning young dancers from Europe, Australia, Turkey, South Korea and the USA recently. We watched the PdL and YAGP recently and wow! 

1 minute ago, Bunny said:

My DS (from the north!) has made the WL waitlist. We did absolutely no additional training, no private lessons, no one to one coaching. Just his normal ballet class and JA class via Zoom. Looking at the results and seeing all these posts on Instagram, as well as his reaction to the news, I can’t help but feel I have let him down by not realising this was the apparent ‘norm’ 😓 

@Bunnyyour DS has done extremely well and you should be very proud! I still think that’s how it should be - how your DS approached it. 
 

As some posts said, this year is not the “norm” (I am so hoping it won’t be for the following years) and might just be coincidence for this particular year. It won’t count for much as it’s just my personal opinion but I do think boys still have more of a chance even if they have potential alone and not extensive training. For boys, the time before auditions I think doesn’t get as intense as it does for some girls, which is always a good thing and should be the norm. This year, I get the impression that it’s been a bit of a frenzy for some leading up to auditions! I will keep my fingers tightly crossed for you, that your DS gets a place. 

2 minutes ago, Sally-Anne said:

Interesting. Is there a financial benefit to endorsing brands? And back to your original point, do you think it helps these kids get places in the schools they tag? And if so, why/how? 
(Im genuinely curious)

I am not sure to be honest, I wouldn’t have thought so? Perhaps they get provided products for free to advertise. I don’t really know. 
 

I would like to think tagging won’t help them get places as ultimately it would be how they perform in auditions. I wouldn’t know what their rationale is for tagging. Maybe it’s institutional pride as most would already be in the school’s system anyway.   I very much doubt schools browse through their own tags to identify potentials. 

3 minutes ago, SissonneDoublee said:

To take only this year’s intake of one school, and only one gender within the Year 7 class as a sample, is hardly a representation of the children accessing vocational training. To claim that they all come from the south while discounting any reference to previous year groups ‘because we are talking about this year’s intake’ is absurd. Looking at such a tiny sample can only observe coincidences. Several posters have pointed out that this is not a pattern over time.

 

When talking about students accessing huge amounts of training and having a massive online presence, you have to also bear in mind the huge number of children that do both these things without securing a place at any of the vocational schools. Having lots of classes with ‘big name’ teachers and posting photos on Instagram doesn’t lead to a vocational place. Hard work sometimes includes these things, particularly the additional training, but there are many other factors. Any child in a ballet class is capable of asking for additional exercises to do at home and practicing daily. That will make more difference than a dozen online tutorials. Lots of posters have said that they know of DC who had very few lessons apart from a couple of ballet lessons and a good vocational programme each week. Again, you can’t look at only part of one cohort and try to make any conclusions, ignoring all references to previous year groups.

 

Every year we comb through the ‘yeses’ trying to find an explanation or a pattern. It’s only natural to look for answers, especially when faced with a disappointment. But to try to put it down to privilege or geography rather than talent, hard work, dedication and physical suitability, is insulting to the children that have worked so hard to get there.

If I sounded like it, I apologise, but I wasn’t intending to make sweeping generalisations. My original post was more about a concern that this could be the trend moving forwards. Of course I would be happy to be proven wrong and that this particular year would not be the norm for the following years. The past year has been a very different ones and this of course could be a factor. The only reason I was saying my comment was for a particular intake is to address those who thought I was making a general comment covering several years.  There is no pattern as such, and I wasn’t alluding to any, but what I was hoping won’t happen is that for this to become a pattern because that would severely limit the demographic of children who can access full time training in vocational schools. I obviously don’t know the circumstances of these DCs and I would never claim to, but an interesting thought I had was that how many of these kids would actually need a substantial level of MDS funding?   I know of many lovely stories of DCs who are funded through associates etc where the family cannot afford such extras, but I still personally believe that to attain a certain level to be truly competitive one has to have means to do so or be so stunning as to be awarded scholarships or other sorts of funding.  Would everyone have the time to travel long hours to access a particular associates? Attend classes almost every day of the week? Have privates? 
 

I had no intention to be insulting. In my previous posts I had made this clear that I don’t wish to take anything from ang children.  No one can dispute their talent, hard work and suitability which is why they achieved what they did. However, I stand by my statement that having the means to fully complement, nurture, progress and enhance these attributes helps. Perhaps I am wrong and a “rough diamond” can show up in a group of exquisitely trained, hardworking, determined dancers and be noticed. Anyone who gets to these final stages of getting into full time schools must have potential and facility  of some level. The difference might be that better trained young dancers would probably know how to harness their strengths, and hide weaknesses (if any).

The bottom line is that I would like to see a pattern NOT to emerge. You are completely right and that this is just this year’s. It would be a nice thought that everyone who works hard and has the potential has an equal chance to achieve their dream, regardless of having the means to do so. I always did say I love a good success story, and much prefer those that are about people who managed to defy odds.  

1 hour ago, Ballerina_girl said:

That’s really good. Well done to your DD you are the first and only girl I’ve heard of getting a place from the north. 

  
I would actually guess that up to maybe even 11 of this specific gender who were offered places this year live or are based (attend dance schools/associates) in the South: within London, South West, South East or Home Counties. I could be wrong obviously. Coincidence, perhaps. I would estimate 6 are from the same associates centre alone. And if previous years are to go by, not counting subsequent offers from intensives, there will be a token 1-2 MAX who weren’t previously known as an associate but is/are likely to have been in the school’s intensives in the past.

7 hours ago, Sally-Anne said:

I honestly didn’t realise that Instagram was a thing for young ballet students. What is the aim of having an Instagram account for a child of 10 or 11 years, or even younger?

Is there not a safeguarding or privacy concern, given the age of the children? 
Maybe I’m old fashioned but I would not allow my children to have social media accounts at this age. 
Nor would I share pictures or details about them publicly. 
Perhaps because I’m a ‘vintage’ Mum 😂

 

I am with you on this @Sally-Anne however I do also see the point of others when they say it’s a means to meet peers and like-minded individuals and to share their journey to inspire others. It’s very much a social thing as the name suggests but also I believe it’s to get out there, maybe even endorse brands. Some tag schools, places, teachers, brands of items they wear/use. A simple experiment would be to do a # search of school names. 

7 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Define the North! And how far back do you want to go? Hull has produced some first class dancers via RBS over the years. 

I believe @Ballerina_girl was referring to only this year’s offers of places to a certain school. We don’t dispute there have been lots from the north and beyond but one can easily do a search of the school’s name on social media to see that for a specific gender, this year’s offers for entry are predominantly for DC who live or based in South. I’d say maybe South of the midlands. The same search would reveal that for quite a few of these they have been trained by multiple schools and teachers. It would also appear just based on observation of social media posts by said children and or their schools that they have trained perhaps in unprecedented levels compared to say 4-5 years ago of similar children. Not claiming this to be fact but just observation of what is in the public domain being posted. And very very specific to recent offers of a particular intake (THIS year) of a particular gender to a particular school.

16 minutes ago, Balletmummy18 said:

I think the OP makes a very good point and certainly in my experience of my dd doing the audition rounds for JA/ voc school 5 long years ago there was already certain pool of teachers, associate programmes  etc in London which seemed to confer an ‘advantage’ . we have all seen that explode with Covid and zoom / social media opportunities so that over training ‘becomes the norm for children. 

 

Having money for privates, summer intensives etc certainly helps/ confers advantage  whilst at voc school too!!
 

But the OP asks is still about potential and is it still worth applying for Year 7 without all this- absolutely.. every year at WL a ( albeit) few  children gain places with a few hours of training a week ..& . funny enough my dd achieved her JA place in yr 6 and WL place when ,in a vain attempt to get off the rollercoaster,we cut down her hours to 2 hours a week....so give it a go ... just be prepared if this dream comes true as it shockingly did for us...

 It does seem that way, doesn’t it? Just out of curiosity, I did wonder if associates teachers are permitted to teach privately or teach in other schools. I guess some of them would have their own too.  But what will happen if one of them is asked to teach an audition class and there are children they have taught in their school/other schools/privately in that class? I’m not quite sure if the teacher has a say on decisions but I guess it’s just the panel members who do. I hope this doesn’t happen though as it might be seen as an unfair advantage even if in reality it’s all fair and transparent. 

4 minutes ago, Weloveballet said:

i get you completely and I couldn’t agree more. I think your post was a very good observation and one I had made myself. I have theories as to why I believe a certain area of the country have had access to more training than others but I will keep them to myself as already I feel the point I was making is being misinterpreted. It is a fact that from dance school posts on Instagram/ Facebook with a simple search of royal ballet school you can see quite clearly there is 9 of one gender group from the south. So discussing what has happened in other years is irrelevant. Times are changing over the last year and certain people can access more training more easily via zoom and extra classes and certain people can’t.  I think you made a great point. 

I feel the same. I do have my theories too and while they are just that and are my own personal opinion, they might get misunderstood. What we have stated I believe is quite obvious even if someone simply check the tags of certain schools. I am not exaggerating when I say that I once saw the same child being posted by no less than 4 different teachers within the same week for various classes. It will only be a matter of time before some children would have so much more means and access to training that they will see familiar faces in auditions! Nothing wrong with this of course but I always think it’s the perception that counts, in terms of fairness. 

2 minutes ago, Weloveballet said:

i can’t edit it because I’ve already edited the spelling and can’t edit again. But it was in relation to this years intake only, apologies if that was not clear and I caused confusion but as I say that’s what the original post topic was in relation too. I have seen about 9 posts on social media all of same gender group that are all from the south so I think it was a fair observation and it was interesting how someone else had picked up on that too. Apparently there was 12 places this year so it’s a fair statement to say the majority are from the south 

This is what I meant too. And yes, same number. 9/12 places (single gender group) I would say is quite skewed region-wise although as others might say perhaps this is coincidence. However this is the same gender group who appear to have quite a lot of training this year. To be fair, I don’t refer just to their own posts although some are very much active posters.  They get posted by various teachers and schools too. And I’m not generalising, just an observation of THIS year’s audition group.  I believe other year groups are more of a mix. And come Year 10 even more so once more internationals enter the mix.  

Sadly, I do think this is going to get more “normalised”. One wouldn’t have to be on social media a lot to see that there is an influx of accounts of kids (parent monitored or otherwise), not yet audition age but already doing a whole lot more than kids their age years ago. The move of a lot of things to online delivery has made the world a much smaller place. Zoom has made it possible for a kid to have 2, 3, 4 lessons a day from the confort of their own homes during lockdown. We’ve seen young kids proudly say on social media that it’s been a busy day with 5 hours of training. Or that they’ve just finished a masterclass, associates, Pilates and then another workshop. It’s easier to contact industry professionals, teachers who wouldn’t normally do private lessons online, company dancers, company teachers. This to me is far from what it used to be years ago. but we’ve heard this before a million times in recent months -  It’s unprecedented times and everyone is trying to make it work, make a living and those who can, take the opportunity to maximise options if they can. My worry is that at some point the lines will get so blurred that panel members and teachers in auditions might have taught auditionees in the past as the world is now so connected virtually and otherwise. Although I know everyone will be consummate professionals and will be acting in separate, professional capacities, I wonder what perception this will give if some kids are familiar with key audition personnel. 

Sorry, I guess my north/south comment might have been misconstrued, I actually was just genuinely wondering why the particular group from this year’s auditionees (and only one gender, not the entirety of the group offered places) seemed to be overwhelmingly from the south. I think at least 9, of a possible 12. 
 

The Instagram security concern I had was a bit of a side issue. I think originally what I just meant was that it sort of displayed to the world just how much training these young children were getting, more so this year. It was almost predictable for some, private on so and so days with certain teacher, class every weekday with usual school, associates 1 and 2 on Saturday, associates 3 on Sunday, associates 4 every other weekend etc.  And yes of course if they have the means to do that much training then good on them as it’s an investment for their future and a means to their goal.   I do think they share this as it’s a shared journey among like minded youngsters and that’s lovely. A way to network and indeed I think that by the time they start, they’ve probably been in contact with each other long before they even auditioned  thanks to social media.
 

Particular only to THIS year’s auditions, this seems to be the norm to get offered a place. I also think there’s a slight difference between boys and girls. Somehow, and I must stress this is a personal opinion and could be totally wrong, it seems to be that boys in general still have a bigger chance of getting a place based on potential alone. 

16 minutes ago, Weloveballet said:

Thanks for posting this. You said exactly what I was thinking. My DD was at the white lodge final, she has not been an associate of any company just regular training at her dance school. It was quite clear from when you see coaches on Instagram posting of the success of getting several through that my daughter never really stood a chance, she’s not a ‘finished product’ so to speak. Although she still made that place in the final despite not being a JA or intense associate training and it was a great experience, going off our experience this time I would say they are looking for a more polished dancer and I would be aware of this when applying. That being said it has all been a great experience non the less and I would still give it a go. But that raw talent of an unpolished mouldable child like for example the  Billy Elliot style story just doesn’t seem true to life unfortunately. In our case and our experience anyway. But obviously this is just my opinion from a newbie to it all here 

I am so pleased your DD still had a great experience and at the end of the day, that's what counts.  I think I would let DC audition, but emphasise it is for experience and to have a fun day.  I am also aware though that this is so easy to say, but the truth is, a no is a no and a child will take it as just that.  That moment they get a no email/letter, no matter how we and themselves talk them into it being just an experience, be realistic, it's only a no for now, it's good for you it will teach you resilience/grit/determination - bottom line is it is a no and I doubt a 10/11 year old at that very moment can think of beyond that time.  As a parent, I know this is good for them, life lessons and all that but I know for sure that my heart will break a little for that DC especially when I know I am unable to provide the same level of training etc most others have.

I also agree with you about what you saw on Instagram.  I am aware that people of course post the good things, but going on this there would have been way less kids who got in who were not visible and whose training may not have been as intense.  Off the top of my head, we have seen at least 10 of those offered on various forms of social media, and from multiple sources.  When I say 10, I mean just one of the genders (not both).  I think I read on another thread that this school intended to offer maybe just a dozen places.  

Your DD has done so well Weloveballet!  very well done to you and her especially when you mentioned her training and not being an associate of any company.  I do think associates schemes vary.  For some, I think it doesn't matter even if it was attached to a school.  For some, the stats suggest that overwhelmingly their intakes are from their own associates scheme.  I do wonder if this deters those who aren't their associates from trying.  As an adult with questionable grit and determination, I think it does me.  But I am old and not really resilient enough. Kids would probably gladly try anyway, even year after year.  I think I am too realistic and look too much at the cold hard numbers.