Nicola H

how do you propose to achieve this without a second supervising adult present ? are you sure there is not a duty of care ? As i have explained there are scenarios where young people and adults are working together in delivering service and the service recipients are a third party, In these cases both the YP and adults will recieve training and be made aware of the SSoWs , as many of these scenarios are already in regulated areas of 'work' the adults are usually checked anyway ... but these adults are specifically not in charge of the YP unless they are a designated supervisor of YP. It seems that some peopel have decided i am opposed to the scenario occuring. They are very wrong in this regard, however as someone with very recent experience of safeguarding I do think it;s not as easy as some would suggest. part of the issue is the frequency and intensity of contact , at least weekly if not more often , very difference to a once a term thing or a one off.

I made clear and unambiguous statements of fact and policy as a person with very recent operational experience in safeguarding. Unfortunately the adverse effects on an organisation of a safeguarding problem can be huge and i could see it easily killing a school even not issue was found. Safeguarding with regard to children taking part in sportign and creative activities is a current hot topic , with the difficulties the FA are facing , this is just the latest in a long line of different organisations , Perhaps closer to home for this board would be the similar time period issues at Cheetam's school of Music in Manchester, or the more recent issues in Sydney ... The public spaces argument is a complete strawman when it comes to mixing adults and children in an organised setting. at which point is that line crossed and i suspect that adults attending syllabus classes aimed at YP is on the the 'due diligence needed' side of the line especially if the class is routinely taught by a single teacher ( for those lucky enough to have an actual real life pianist it may be different ) . Certainly the Operational policies of the uniformed Youth Organisations require that adults who regularly assist or participate in youth activities even if they are not a designated youth leader are checked to the higher standards / have higher standard checks extended to include the child related ones that youth leaders would have ... There is a huge amount of misunderstanding of safeguarding and how the due diligence works, I have found that ignorance is common even among those working in regulated settings - often becasue of poor briefing and training and they see Safeguarding as interference and things like DBS checks or LA chaperone approveal as pointless paperwork to satisfy hand wringers

and this occurs with what frequency ? weekly ? monthly ? a couple of times a year ? Again, looking at the rules as used by the various youth organisations and supported by the NSPCC and various statutory bodies , there is a difference between a one off or infrequent adult visitor and adults who regularly and routinely take part in the activities in question even if they do not hold a position of trust

A sentiment along the ' it is all fun and games until someone loses an eye' school of thought. a lot of people seem to have focused on the ' there will be a teacher present' ... which is correct most of the time but not all the time .

I do not think you understand the definition and how it is applied in practice. as has been pointed out by others it is not as simple as there is a teacher present.

and the relevance of that observation to this discussion ?

Typical overreaction from those who do not understand safeguarding, even if they work in regulated environments one of the worse safeguarding training sessions i have seen delivered was delivered by a social worker who works in children's services , who basically implied that anyone who wasn;t part of the youth leadership clique but wanted to work with YP was doing so solely on the basis of grooming ... The OP would have substantial unsupervised access, the adult attending the class also needs to consider the stuff around appropriateness of informatio nand contact details sharing . Don;t forget that in service focused volunteering YP may be volunteering alongside Adult volunteers and thatthe adult is a Participant in providing service as well ( there isn;t the provider / recipient split between the two volunters - therecipient is a third person) You are talking rubbish about the public spaces stuff , this strawman is often erected in such discussion , it does not change the fact that if an adult is participating in a YP activtiy on a regular basis ( or vice versa) proper risk assessment has to be put in place. The law views vulnerable adult protection slightly differenly from child protection, especially with regard to forming relationships - but if you know and understand how the Mental Capacity Act works you should appreciate that difference. Fundamentally with YP the law presumes not and they have to demionstrate competence ( see Gillick/ Fraser stuff re contraception etc or healthcare consents) , where with adults Mental capacity is assumed unless there is a reasonable suspicion ( for want of a better term) otherwise AND capacity assessments with regard to that issue are failed. the short answer to the OP question - it;s possible , but the teachers in question have to be happy with their SSoWs and risk assessments and that these would stand up to Ofsted/ Social Services / Police coming and picking at them if there was the slightest whisper of an issue .

From this comment are we safe to assume you have no practitioner experience with safeguarding ?

where is the substantial unsupervised access ? and although it seems to have upset a few - what is your practitioner experience with safeguarding ?

You are attempting to create a distinction that does not exist in law. If that were the case explain why Scouting had to drop ventures (15 -25) and replace it with 14-18 and 18 plus, ditto Guiding age range revision and SJA dropping 16 -25 units and removing the option to transfer 'up' to adult volunteering at any age between 16 and 18 ( although the issue there was putting YP into the adult setting rather than the other way around ) ?

exactly , so claiming that the teacher is 'always present' is indicative of not havign thought something through ... what happens if a student becomes unwell etc etc ...

see my expanded answer that didn't get accidentially posted , it;s also pertinent to those saying ' it doesn't matter' ... what is the basis for their assertions . The presence of 'adults' as participants in 'youth' activities is sufficiently serious for all the uniformed youth organisations to revise their programmes and age ranges to take account of the difficulties and the law does not see a difference between the 'type' of adult present ...

how much practititoner experience do you have safeguarding ? Anyone who has pointed out the difficulties has not said it's impossible , after all how many dance schools rely on parents / older siblings etc for chaperone duties at shows. There's only been one organisation that has decided youth work is 'too hard' and pulled out completely and that was the British Red Cross during their ' provisional wing of social services' phase ( I've been involved inthe management of voluneer activities for nearly 2 decades, and over a decade of that in specific leadership and management roles - as a volunteer myself) . I've also worked ( as a paid job) in Dementia care and similar concerns over vulnerability apply. What has to be considered is that it needs to be risk assessed and Safe Systems of Work SSoWs put in place - and part of that SSoW may be for the adult to be DBS checked / approved as a chaperone - although this is potentially a paper exercise , but maybe required to demonstrate due diligence - Similar policies apply for none 'warranted' / 'commissioned' but more than very occasional helpers in various of yhe youth organisations. peoplesaying that there will always be a teacher there - what's your setup ?- how many schools have the teacher as the sole member of staff at that time or teacher plus one other person doing reception duties ( who may actually be a YP themselves) even if multiple classes are running becasue the school is fortunate to have a venue with multiple spaces ... Dance and theatre is not immune from the issues that have arisen in other youth organisations or in youth sport as well as schools and care settings etc. Fortunately the sexist / or anti LGBTQ angle hasn't arisen - which may be a tribute to the standard of posters or it may be it simiply hasn't crossed the minds of those who have commented thus far.

No one is stopping it , however there needs to be safe systems of work in place and unfortunately, youth organisations, churches, schools and residential settings have been places where abuse takes place , and it;s second highest risk of abuse area after the home and familiy/ firends of the family .

You would have 'substantial unsupervised access' , the only 'safe' way an unchecked adultcan be left in a room witha group of children in that kind of settign is if they have a staff minder at all times.

In a class which is predominantly under 16s it'd be hassle and even if you have a portable DBS including working with children checks or were all ready an LA approved chaperone it might still cause issues ... there's a reason that Ventures went i nthe last revision of the Scouting programme and Guidings age sections got re aligned , ditto SJA youth provision ( non more 16 -25 units, must stay in a youth unit until 18 ) and the 'military'cadet forces ( rehashed and revised programme to allow the 18- 21 SNCOs and introduction of 'Instructor cadet' classification to stay on until old enough to Commission gpB or VRT or become adult CFAV SNCO . also world of hassle in training over 'hands on corrections' etc

i'm not knocking Zumba, but i have heard concerns voiced by some people that the level of unpderpinning knowledge of some zumba teachers is marginal and that the 'system' tolerates this ... I don't think anyone is suggestign that moreclasses is a bad idea , but are bad classes beneficial ? having had to 'un teach' bad habits in other areas where i am more experienced makes me wary of an approach that provides more exposure by lowering trainer standards ( especially as the move in the UK in Vocational ( wider sense , not the Performing arts use of the term) trainign and education is to increase the levles of knowledge of both training / teaching /assessing theory and the subject matter knowledge )

access may be an issue , if adult ballet is zumbaised - what about the adult beginner who wants to study 'properly' - are their options now severely limited , it can be hard enough to find a class that suits ( time / day ./ location PAYG vs pay per term ... as it is . ) Elitism is an interesting one - give the ubiquity of attending classes among female children , there's a wider issue of participation in none school activities in some demographics but that is nothign to do with the activities and all to do with mindsets You often hear complaints / concerns that there is 'nothing to do' for young people in a settlement , yet when you look into it , local units of the various youth organisations folded due to lack of YP numbers , not funding or lack of adult staff , LA youth provision was closed or wound back due to lack of use which made that spend in that place harder to justify than other spending which was showing results... Physique - is it time for a 'let's knock Balanchine thread ?' Ironically for men in dance one of the best known UK names in ballet is someone with an 'none typical' physique ( all 5 '2" of Wayne Sleep) ... arguably ballet should be physique independent ... but could a 5 '2" danseur effectively partner a 5 '10" ballerina is a traditonally constructed and choreographed pas de deux ? I know gymnastics introduced minimum ages for certain levels of elite competition to reduce the move to 'over grown prepubescent' 14 and 15 year old female competitors ...

i thought so - which is the way the the more serious end of things seems to work as opposed to the 'consumer' market ...

makes sense i.e. pay xGBP / hour for the studio and 'tog including the digital images and then pay extra for prints or additional copies of the media. I know a model who is /was a dancer ( and an aspiring 'tog / artist herself) who may be able to advise as she is north midlands / yorkshire based https://www.facebook.com/scarlot.rose ( fb link should be family friendly she's on purpleport etc as well ) ... It seems that the easiet way to make a small fortune out of being a 'tog is to begin with a large one ... also i do think that for the reall good togs it all seems to be word of mouth / industry specific sites / 'alternative' sites rather than public advertising that generates their work

However does this attitude promote the potential ofthe 'zumba-isation' of adult ballet or a risk of a polar split between 'casual' and ' being like the youth syallbuses' ?

That makes a lot of sense , from my experience as a student and as a teacher in other things credibility of the teacher is important When i did a bit of teaching in sailing as a older teen , the fact i was in the third tier down from the top in the youth racing side of things was always a plus the top teirs sat 'above' the syllabus in that to access that level of training you'd have to demonstrate knowledge and skills equal to the top certificated levels in both the 'racing' ( blue racing badge for those who know the 90s RYA syllabuses) and 'technical' ( level 5 ideally with recommended for Instructor endorsement) syllabuses ... ( the top 2 tiers in the youth side of things were tiny - the top teir is literally a dozen people in the whole country - it's the team that goes to the Youth world champs) in terms of credibility ... ) When teaching and assessing first aid, care and emergency care subjects for a large charity ( teaching was mainkly for other service delivery vols) the fact i was working in a health professional role in my 'day job' and my main volunteering role was a combination of crewing ambulances / bronze/ silver roles as a manager on events and some policy stuff made the issue of credibility issues pretty much a none event. which reflects Kate's observation that a good teacher who has been a professional practitioner is ' better' subjectively and often objectively than some someone who has achieved their teaching qualification with the minimums of 'real world' experience of doing it as a 'job' ( regardless of paid status)

i get distracted by a piece that gets used in class that is or very close to one of the songs from My Fair Lady ...

the handling fees are the killer on small purchases as the handling fee from the courier acting as customs agent is the same whether it;s oen item or a box full

you may have scraped under the VAT thresholds if it was a single leotard, but that is unlikely you may have been lucky or got away with it becasue it was under the 39 gbp threshold rather than the 15 gbp threshold , a single leaotrd would be unlikely to hit the threshold for duty unlike custom costumes etc ... https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty