Kate_N

I'm not sure about that, Piccolo, but hyperextension and hypermobility are not the same thing. Hyperextension maybe a result of hypermobility, but it is not the same thing. (Think of a Venn diagram). And I imagine that hypermobility does not always or necessarily lead to hyperextension in balletic terms -- although a medico or physio would know more about that, I think. DrDance may have the medical knowledge about this.

Adults in open (ballet) classes all wear leotards - not sure why you would think they wouldn't? I usually wear a long-sleeved leotard and pink tights, with leggings over, which I can strip off as I - and the studio - get warmed up. But really, no-one notices ...

I think someone said it upthread, but it's worth repeating: hyperextension of joints is different to hypermobility syndrome/s. Or indeed, a phrase my physio used for me "hyperflexible" - but that was in a 'civilian' sense, not a dancer's. Hypermobility syndromes (such as Ehling-Dahlos) are quite different from flexibility & hyperextension. And often - as far as I have seen with a couple of colleagues - dance training can be quite bad for hypermobility long term, if the hypermobility hasn't been recognised or diagnosed. I have a colleague who will need to have a series of joint replacements because of intensive training on top of an undiagnosed hypermobility syndrome.

And yes, thanks to all for such a fascinating discussion. I'm very very mildly hyperextended according to DrDance's information. Palms flat on the floor is easy, and so is my heels coming off the floor with knees extended. But I've always seen that as "normal" flexibility. I have a family member who's a professional ballet dancer who is hyperextended, and they really had to work for strength and control, and not push back into the knees. It was definitely much harder for them, and a constant pressure to work carefully to avoid injury, and also to keep weight forward and not sink in the lower back & into the quads.

Gosh, I can't see you, and I'm not your teacher, but you should never "lock" your knees if you're hyperextended. You have to learn quite a different way of working if you have hyperextended joints. They may give a nice line IF ( a big if) the dancer knows how to work with them, but there are general issues of strength and control with hyperextended knees. Definitely NOT a requirement!

And there are real relationships between "abstract thought" and practical action. Let's not make an inaccurate binary opposition between the two. Most working artists combine them.

Swindon Dance might also be a possibility for you? They have a very good reputation, particularly in contemporary dance, and have produced some wonderful dancers.

I'd also like to register a dislike of the term "navel-gazing" to apply to study of history and critical analysis of any art form or cultural production! Critical or historical study, reflection and self-reflection might not be what you want to do, but they are important forms of learning for artists as well as scholars (and I teach both sorts of students) and give us much new knowledge.

Ballyhoo, I'man academic in the general area (not at Roehampton). I'm afraid that if you want to do studies at an advanced level, and think that reflection, analysis and self-reflection on your work, other people's work, and the social & historical contexts of the production of art is 'navel gazing' then you may not be cut out for post-graduate studies of that kind. You might be better looking at a conservatoire programme, such as those at Laban or The Place.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I think Uber has a lot of risks (apart from undermining the standard black cab and mini cab services in London). The drivers are not checked or insured as Black cab drivers are, nor is there a set rate per mile etc. Basically, anyone with a car can become an Uber driver. If you're uncertain or inexperienced in getting about London, I would NOT use Uber.

And there's also this fun map! http://www.quickmap.com/movie1kin.htm You can change the main line station, so you can see what leaves from Euston. I've just changed the mainline station I come in on (used to be Euston or Marylebone). I clicked on Paddington, and there's a bus that goes directly from Paddington to Camden. But honestly, Camden High Street on a sunny Saturday is almost impossible to walk along with any ease! Also, most central London buses now have a lot of information on them (for example, automated announcements of the name of the next stop), and if you have a smartphone, you should be able to work out routes on the spot.

You can do a lot on the TfL site: here's a "Near your location" search, using RAD Headquarters https://tfl.gov.uk/bus/stop/490003688W/battersea-high-street Have fun!

Camden Market on the weekend is really crowded (and pretty horrible in places because of that). Although teens in my family quite liked it in the bits where it wasn't crowded. They much preferred Spitalfields. Neither Camden nor Spitalfiends is particularly close to Clapham. Why don't people use the Transport for London site? It's brilliant: it has journey planners & downloadable (PDF) maps of the Tube and the buses. Just google TFL.

You can learn dance notation: Benesh or Laban notation.

No rush to start pointe, really! I have a couple of professional dancers in my family - neither started pointe till about 12. I started at 13, but was very strong and stable from the start. There is plenty of time! And as for the "right feet" for a professional career ... well, maybe at the moment they're not naturally those "banana feet" that look so beautiful, but on the other hand, a lot of the "banana foot" is muscle which any dancer, going in to pre-professional-level training will develop. And less typically "ballerina" feet can be stronger and cause fewer difficulties in a dancing career. At 10, a child's body still has a LOT of changes to go through. Unless there are obvious things in the proportions of the body which are not part of the classical ballet aesthetic (eg the proportional relationship of legs to torso, small head etc) no-one knows how a 10 year old will develop by 14 with the right slow & steady clean technical training. And I always hope that young people (especially girls) will learn over their teen years that there is a whole lot more to the dance world, and the performing arts in general, than the "ballerina" role. There is some wonderful, powerful, expressive & creative contemporary dance out there, a lot of it being made by strong, creative, and technically amazing female dancers - I can think of Charlotte Vincent and Jasmin Vardamon straight off the top of my head (or see the Wim Wenders documentary on Pina Bausch, to see what a career in dance can be). Contemporary dance values technical skills and creativity as well as the body beautiful. So when she's a bit older, make sure your daughter sees some contemporary dance as well as ballet. Lots to play for!

Re falling over, Fiz - I was in my lovely Saturday morning class, and we were doing a reasonably complicated pirouette combination in the centre - with turns both en dehors, en dedans and grande. The simplest turn was a terre á terre to reorient us from the right corner to the left, and guess who fell over on that turn, not the en dedans double that came before it!

Did a bit of YouTube searching, so here are some examples. It's formally called a coupé jeté entournant (in RAD) or grand jeté en tournant, but in most classes where I've done it, teachers just say coupé jeté! Differences in terminology are pretty usual - in the States, they say "passé" when they mean "retiré" and "tour jeté" when they mean "jeté en tournant" - but in the end they're the same steps! The first video is not great technique, but the steps are clear and well-placed (when you can see it). The vid shows the step most clearly (when you can see it). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI7P-eY99H0 According to this vid, it's a step on RAD Advanced 2, which may be why you've never come across it, as most Beginners or mixed level classes wouldn't introduce it, I think. I don't think it's that hard once you get the flow of the steps, but I don't do it with particular technical quality! I just like to move. And here are the gorgeous experts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzuMV13Fl08 I can only dream of doing it like that!

It was an ENB workshop, when they were doing Swan Lake in the round. The coupé jeté coupé step is a standard allegro/centre practice step with a turn. A teacher might be able to explain better than I, but I'll try: To the right: start with a chassé leading with right foot, then using your left foot in coupé turn to the right - all in plié, low to the ground - then as you come out of the turn, jeté out with right leg leading. On landing, bring left leg around for another turn in a sort of plié (knees bent), then another chassé into a turn, then jeté, and repeat. It's quite tricky to learn, and you need to enjoy turning and moving and not be scared of jumping out rather than up. I don't do it technically very well at all, but it's an exhilarating way of covering space. And like a lot (most?) allegro/turning steps, it can be done across the floor in all sorts of different directions, including all around the room. If you're in a big studio, learning to do things in a circle is really good practice for learning to dance in the space, and orienting yourself in the space and in relation to your fellow dancers.

You could look at the main dance studios in NYC (google these names & you'll get their websites) Steps on Broadway Broadway Dance Centre Peridance Ballet Arts East Alvin Ailey Joffrey to see what they offer for children. Open classes at those studios won't be suitable until a child is 16 or so. The US "sister" site to this one, Ballet Talk for Dancers, has lots of information about summer intensives. Most seem to be around 5-6 weeks long however, as US summer holidays are much longer, and there's a tradition of going away to camp in north America.

Thanks to all the Moderators for this wonderful Forum. Happy New Year and all good things for 2016.

I studied both RAD and Cecchetti in Newcastle then Sydney when I lived in Australia. There are some differences in the individual set exercises, but the differences between the syllabi are minimal. The grades translate pretty much straightforwardly. Good training is good training. But relax! She's only 6. Serious training doesn't really start till 8 or 10, and it's really not until a girl turns 14 or so that you'll know what sort of a dancer she'll be (body changes etc etc). So you've got a couple of years to settle (it's a big move - I've done it twice!) and find the right studio or combination of studios. The other thing I always advise people to check are the regional Dance Agencies (not theatrical agents for getting work). They offer reliable because non-commercial teaching & advice. They're subsidised by the Arts Council England and local county councils, and their remit is for general dance education. They've had some excellent results (Swindon Dance is a powerhouse for producing contemporary dancers, for example). I'm very familiar with Ludus Dance in Lancaster (also NW) and here's a link to the Merseyside Dance Initiative http://www.mdi.org.uk/about/ I'm a great fan of the regional dance agencies - they do terrific work. And are a good model of how to make a career in dance if you're not cut out to be a RB principal

LinMM, I've done a few ENB workshops like this (although I'll gloss over one group I was in where 2 of the participants talked to each other in French and didn't co-operate with the rest of us 3 - we basically ended up doing what they told us we were going to do ... ) It's great fun isn't it? I did one at the RAH, where we learnt about spotting piqué turns going around the circular stage, and ditto with coupé jetés. Great practice for spotting. Would love to do more, but managed to give myself a rather painful hamstring attachment injury running [plodding] in the forest over Christmas. Annoyingly, I'm going to have to rest it for at least the next month, or just do very basic class with left leg no higher than 45 degrees. Grrr The ENB workshops are excellent - great teachers and really well thought out choreographic activities for adults not usually used to this sort of work (ref. my 2 fellow participants - clearly not use to collaborating and improvising).

I wouldn't think a 12 year old at Grade 4 & 5 would manage Intermediate/Advanced at Danceworks. Elementary or Beginners would be more appropriate IF the teacher is happy with under 18 year olds. I've watched bits of Advanced classes & they're for fully-trained equivalent to professionals - I wouldn't dare go to them & I've done the Advanced level at Birmingham DanceXchange! If your DD is still learning particular steps etc (dance vocabulary), which I'd assume she is at Grades 4 & 5, then I'd say Beginners would be the right level. I do Christine Mittelmaier's Intermediate class on Sunday mornings when I can, which is lovely & I learn a lot, but it's about practising & developing technique, while as class participants we are already confident with most ballet technical vocabulary/steps. It's not a teaching class of that sort, whereas most of the teachers of beginner level classes are prepared to explain & teach basic & more complex steps/technique/ballet vocabulary. Edited to add: do you mean the specific Danceworks children's programme, rather than the Open classes (which are primarily for adults)? If it's the former, you probably need to contact Danceworks. They're very helpful & friendly, I've always found.

Good luck with talking this through with your DD. You might also talk about the very wide range of dance-related training (often to degree level), which leads to careers in dance that are not the "straight arrow" of RBS to RB to principal. That career is the very very very small minority. There are many many more careers in dance to be pursued in this country:in contemporary dance (look at the work of Akram Khan or Russell Maliphant - I think anyone would want to dance that work), Or the important work of dance therapists, or dancers in the community, or as contemporary dancers/teachers/choreographers. And many many more (only had one cup of coffee so far so can't think of them!) I don't know the age of your DD, and OF COURSE you don't have to say (protect anonymity etc). But from my experience teaching undergrads in the creative arts, they come to us from school with very limited ideas about what the discipline I teach involves. And very narrow ideas of their future working involvement in the profession. THey've generally had a limited exposure to the art form, ad mostly in its most commercial/conservative forms. We spend most of the first year breaking down these barriers, to help them to see the wide wide world of possibilities they've entered by studying with us at degree level. And by graduation time, they are astounding in the breadth of ideas, innovation, entrepreneurship, making their own opportunities - very much changed from the b=narrow notions of the profession they had at 18. And the great thing is, they don't feel that these are second best to the dreams they had of being the equivalent of principal artist (in my field) at the RB. It's a big wide world of art, and maybe exposure to some powerful dance that is not the RB would be a really helpful addition to her education if she's not already seeing a range of different dance styles. THere are many small-ish companies who tour regionally, doing workshops etc along the way.

Toi, toi, toi. And breathe ...