Kate_N

But ballet is a performing art, where the aesthetics are important! It may be tough to see your children apparently not chosen, but the end point is training an artist for a particular art form, with particular requirements.

OK, it's a few years since I was in that studio, but I'll try to answer your questions. People wear leotards & tights, with cover ups. Generally fairly neat. Some women wear ballet skirts (I never have - I'm too much of a contemporary-style ballet dancer). It's an open class, so they don't do the same combinations either at barre or centre each week - although when Jonathan Payn taught (wonderful wonderful teacher) he would sometimes give us the set Cechetti adages (from the Advanced syllabus, which I learnt!) or the 'Eight positions of the body' set centre exercise, or one term we worked through the Cechetti port de bras. And did the pirouette from a grand plie in 5th exercise. But usually, the teacher shows the exercise, we mark, then it's done to the right then the left. Often with the teacher continuing to demonstrate (barre combinations) or call out the movements. Allegro - starts easy - sautes, changements, echappes - again Jonathan would do an evil counting exercise with changements when we had to hold on (say) count 3, 7, 2, and 6 over 16 counts - or something like that. Taught you either to count, or to listen to the music! Petit allegro combinatrions generally over 32 counts each side, with combinations of glissade, faille, assemblee, pas de basque, ballote, pas de chat, temps de cuisse, - those sorts of steps. Not often brises ... Sissone exercise usually folded into petit allegro Then we'd probably do a fairly basic pirouette across the floor - tombe chasse, pas de bourree, double en dehors from 4th then to the left, or into a en dedans. And so on. Adage could include adage pirouettes in the grande positions (usually attitude). And the studios are large, so grande allegro always great fun. Grand jetes, jete en tournon, turning chasse coupe jetes en menage. Sometimes I would find things difficult, but it's a very friendly atmosphere and the teachers seem to LIKE teaching adults. They are exceptional teachers, and you'll learn a lot. They will actually TEACH and do hands on corrections. SO you can learn new stuff as well. Oh gosh I do miss those classes, writing this all out!

I used to do that class, and I was looking at the video on the DanceXchange site the other day, and saw some of my classmates there. It's a very inclusive class. There will be a variety of abilities, including ex-vocationally trained students with beautiful extensions etc etc, and then people like me - older, know their stuff but not professionally trained. As long as you know enough to get out of the way (I once almost kicked a beginner in a grande allegro combination, who had NO idea - she was cross, but it could have been a disaster), then you'll be fine. There are some lovely friendly people in the class, and the studios are gorgeous! I don't miss a lot about living in Birmingham, but I do miss the ballet classes at DanceXchange.

Petalviolet, I think you've hit the nail on the head. This is so true! Whenever I've seen bragging (in dance or theatre), it's been from a position of ignorance about the wider arts world. Once you're in that serious creative world, when it's the work that matters, not the individual ego decorations, then what grade your prodigy DD achieved at that stupendously young age (or whatever) means nothing. That's why I always say to my students (and here <grin> ) that they need to get out more & see lots of dance, lots of theatre, lots of visual art, to educate themselves in the work of serious art. I think maybe for the suburban bragging parents (I used to do Pony Club & it was the fathers who were the braggers there!) finding a child with a talent for dance is a new experience of art & theatre, and they see it as another set of grades, exams and certificate challenges to measure their child's "exceptional" abilities. But in the end, any performing artist has to learn that it's not actually about them, it's about the work. Of which they are a part. I was delighted as I was walking home the other night, to hear a group of my final year students (they graduate with their degrees in July) chattering about their final performance projects in a way that showed how they now realised the importance of setting self & ego aside to create a good piece of work as a group. This is what we're all working towards - the highest level of self-development in individuals, with part of that self-development being a realisation of what they can bring to collective creation. Great thread- and here's a way of dealing with difficult situations from Will and Grace: do you remember the "mother armour" scene?- just replace the word "mother" with "bragging dance mum/dad armour"

I understand why you don't want to see this as a disability, but it is, albeit temporary. I work in a university, and as of a couple of years ago, most (all?) educational services had to comply with the DDA (Disabilities Discrimination Act). It's our legal duty, but it's also humane, human, and ethical pedagogy. If -- in every other way -- you are capable and competent in teaching, then the loss of voice should be presented as a temporary disability, and you can justifiably ask for 'reasonable adjustment.' In this case it might simply be the opportunity to demonstrate that even with a low voice you are a capable and effective teacher. I broke my dominant arm & hand rather badly (18 months of limited use, disability & chronic pain), and found all sorts of things very difficult, especially as my job is a lot of writing! I had to use speech to text software, and in setting it up, the Disabilities counsellor at my university commented that in some ways it was harder for someone suddenly becoming disabled if they've previously been able-bodied. They have to adjust very quickly, and often change a lot about their lives very quickly. And if it's temporary (as I hope yours is - if it's stress related, then there's hope that if the stress goes, the voice eventually returns) then there's really not time to adjust. It is tough. But if in all other ways you are an effective teacher & the low voice does not hamper your communication with your students, then you have a good case for consideration. Good luck! And as DrDance says, can you do something about the stress? Sometimes learning the Alexander Technique can help - don't know if you've tried that?

Absolutely Anna_C. I was thinking this was about classical ballet training (reading too quickly!). The other thing about musical theatre is that women's voices can take time to mature - a classically trained singer doesn't start to find her mature voice until around 25 or so, I gather. I guess it's all about having options: Plan A, Plan B, Plan C ...

Can I join with others in suggesting that A Levels at ages 16-18 might not be the necessity you think they are. I know this goes against the grain of 'Qualifications, qualifications, qualifications" but bodies for ballet won't wait. Brain training in an academic sense, can wait. And dance training isn't necessarily not brain training! As others have said, entry for mature students (defined as anyone over 21) can be quite different than for pupils straight from A Levels. And BTecs can be excellent qualifications. They don't have the emphasis on writing (which can be an issue in the subject I teach at university), but they are seen as excellent extended technical & practical training. I think this will also depend on your DD's likelihood of being accepted into a reputable vocational dance training school. If she's not accepted into any of the reputable ones in this country, then sadly, she (and you) probably needs to rethink strategies for dance as a profession, obviously. And then A Level study comes back into play. But if she's accepted into a high level vocational school, then maybe she could really go for that, and pick up other aspects of her training later. If I ruled the world <hums Harry Secombe> I'd set up an education system where people could opt in and out of particular kinds of post-compulsory education as their lives and careers demanded. So retraining at 40 if it's needed. And so on ...

Oh Annaliesey, yes - I don't get it: ballet training is better to be slow and steady. But here's a heartening tale: member of my family was a bit of a late starter (11 or 12 or so), and was never the "star" of her class or the awful dance competitions that were done for "performance experience." There was another girl who was the prodigy etc etc just as your first post lists. Her mother was always not-bragging, just as you say in your first post - not bragging, just telling us all about her daughter's achievements (yeah, right). Guess who went on to earn her living as a professional dancer reaching at soloist level in an established well-known company? Hint: it wasn't the youthful prodigy ...

But they are being 'honest' by describing a class as 'Intermediate level' if it is between Beginner and advanced or professional. I think the mistake is to assume that the dance world runs on the terminology of children's graded syllabi - it really doesn't! RAD, ISTD and all the others are simply children's graded syllabi, used mostly in the UK and former colonies.

That's a really interesting distinction, Annaliesey. Because for a serious but non-professional adult ballet student, what you describe is normal, and is indeed "practising and improving technique" - We learn through the choreography - the combinations given in exercises at the barre and centre. Your daughter's judgement seems very accurate and mature: if she couldn't see herself learning in that way - which is normal for adult advanced dancers, then she wasn't at that level. There'll come a time when she is at that level!

A child working on Grade 4 or 5 (I remember doing Grade 5 RAD waaaay back) should be in the children's course at Danceworks. I don't think they'd cope with much more - maybe the Beginners level. And even then, the Beginners classes I've been to cover far more than is in the Grade 5 syllabus, iirc. There's so much out there for children, I'm not sure I see why an 11 or 12 year old should be going to adult classes. Her's the link for the Danceworks Ballet Academy (the children's programme). You'll see they allow drop in classes, details in the "Fees" section: http://www.danceworks-academy.net/

Yes, 6 is bizarre. But that is a different sort of class, I suspect. I think that even if one had no idea of what Danceworks is - except that a good read of the website does tell you it's a studio for adults - you might pick up a hint or two from the statement made that open classes are for adults, and children are an exception, for which you need the teacher's permission. And that there is a separate children's programme ...

2dancersmum - yes, you've put really well what I was trying to say, without sounding anti-children! Classes at Danceworks, Pineapple etc are for adults ... I've done classes put on for adults, with under 16 yos in them, and it does change the feel of the class. One class I just stopped going to because the mother who brought her two children along with her, had no idea about how to train her children not to get in the way in the centre. And the teacher just let it happen. And I don't think it's confusing if it's an Adult class. Adult Beginners ...

I would LOVE to see this. Brilliant!

I sympathise with your daughter and her friends. There are huge developmental differences between an 11 year old and a 16 year old, and there's the reasonable concern that having 11 year olds in a master class designed for 16+ young dancers would slow the class down, and draw attention from those for whom the Masterclass was designed. I don't understand the desire to push young children inappropriately like this - it's really bad for their training and their bodies. Is it bragging rights for parents? As an adult dancer, a "hobby" dancer but nevertheless a serious student of the art of ballet, there are even fewer opportunities for non-professional adult dancers to develop their skills and technique than for the older teen dancers. It seems only fair to keep adult classes for adults!

Just adding: looking at the description of Ms Northmore's class, it sounds really wonderful. But I'd read the "General" as an indication of the type of class which moves quickly and in which the teacher assumes participants know all the repertoire of steps. Not a "teaching you new steps" sort of class - although in a good class, one always learns something!

But RAD or whatever grades for children and teens aren't what the professional dance world operates by. Particularly not for a studio with an open programme for those over 16. Children under that age are the exception in open classes. There is a children's programme at Danceworks, and plenty of graded classes all over the country for children. You really can't assume that "Advanced" means RAD Adv 1 - iirc, that was Intermediate when I studied grades. The "Advanced" class at Danceworks basically is for professionals, ex-professionals, and those study at pre-professional level. If a child has only done set syllabus work, they'll really struggle with an open class at Danceworks. Best to stick to Beginners - in my experience at various studios in the UK and US, it's possible to watch a little bit of the end of a class before yours starts, or watch the start of the class after yours, and you can get a good sense of the level then. There's really no shame or harm in going down a level when trying out an open class at a studio. The beginners classes at Danceworks are excellent. And frankly, it's more courteous for those sharing the class! I've been in classes at Advanced level (not Danceworks, I'm not up to Advanced there!) where beginners have been quite dangerous - I had to stop a big jump once because some inexperienced person who couldn't follow the combination was trying to jump across me. I could have been injured.

Congratulations! UEA is an excelle t university and the English Department is top-notch (I know several of the academic staff there). Have a wonderful time in September starting university (I always get nostalgic at Freshers Week time ... lost youth .... )

If what you want is the competitive advantage, then I think you may have to pay for it, in some way or other. It doesn't sound like she wants to do an MA - what about a PG Cert[ificate] or Dip[loma]? From October there will be up to £10k available in postgraduate student loans funding, for those who have paid the £9k pa undergrad fees. But it sounds like what you think she needs is a further year of full-time vocational study - rather like a repeat year? What about a full-time fee-paying school? Is there anything near you (I'm thinking of Hammond et al). I went to university at 17 and coped, the professional dancers in my family both went abroad at 14 and 16 respectively, for training & then work (at 17). It can be done, thousands have done it - ballet is an international profession. Rosella Hightower is probably one of the top schools in Europe, if not the world! Anything there would be fine. And a beautiful location. The Neumeier School (Hamburg), the John Cranko School, and the Munich International Ballet School are all top German vocational 'Berufsfachscule' Good luck!

When you say that "If she doesn't feel ready to start auditioning for companies" what does your daughter mean by "ready"? Does she mean she thinks her technical skills aren't up to professional standard yet? or is she (or you?) worried about her maturity? If it's the former, then wouldn't it be best for her to speak to her teachers, work out what she needs to work on, why she isn't there yet, and a plan for a further year of technical training, which wouldn't have to be at a university. Lots of great suggestions upthread. Here's one more: Could she put together a programme of training via working at a major studio (in London, I'd say Danceworks), going in to do a couple of the Professional level classes each day + maybe some Contemporary or Pilates into the mix? If you go to open class regularly, teachers will get to know you, and will teach you, rater than simply giving class. If it's about funding, to stay at a university, there won't be funding for a 4th year unless that is part of the course as enrolled in, or to start again somewhere else after one's first year. There's no student funding for an extra year because someone isn't ready in the set of skills and knowledge they've been studying. If she needs a further year, it would have to be a postgraduate year. If it's that she (or you) is worried about maturity - I think you'll have to find another way than staying in the safe "womb" of a school or university. To be frank - from my own experience, seeing my students, and the experience of members of my family, to make a career in the arts you need to be brave. You need to be so driven that you get over shyness or fear. So she probably just needs to "feel the fear and do it anyway" as the self-help books say.

As well as up, I always think of weight forward, particularly coming into land, after turning.

Of course you can. Depending on where you live, there will be one or two, or many more classes per week. You're already doing a recognised pathway of study - you just need to find a way to do few more classes each week, and maybe look at all the week-long or weekend intensives for adults to keep pushing your dance study. There are lots of threads in here giving information about adult intensives, workshops, and weekly classes. Good luck!

I don't want to sound harsh here, but there are some tough questions you may need to think about. You don't have to answer these questions online here, but you might like to consider them, to help you make decisions about where to study next. I'm just going from what you've posted here, but you say you didn't get in to London Studio Centre, LCDS, NSCD and Laban. But that you definitely want to perform, work in a company, set up your own, and eventually teach. Are these really realistic goals given your ability, facility, and current stage of training & knowledge? Are you at a sufficient standard at the moment to move towards the next level of education so as to achieve those goals? If not (and rejections from those schools might suggest that) then what training do you need to do now to get to the requisite standard for full vocational training for professional standards? Did you get any feedback from those auditions? Is there a trusted professional - maybe one whose done what you aim to do - who could give you straightforward but constructive feedback? At this point in your training, it seems to me that you need to identify where the work and training needs to focus. I'd really counsel against going to a university Dance degree programme just because you think you need to go somewhere. It's a big investment of time (and loans) UNLESS it gives you what you need to get to the next level. So you need to be very rational - it's not clear from your first post just what put you off Middlesex, and attracted you to Edge Hill. It's difficult, but you need to look past glossy brochures & Open Day talks. I speak as an "insider" - a professor in a performing arts department. We try to be absolutely clear about what modules we offer and studio hours, library/independent study demands, and so on. We are also very upfront that we are NOT a vocational training school. And this is where you need to be very careful - ost university courses are not the same as vocational 'conservatoire' courses (we talk about vocational training places as conservatoires in my field). So, as others have said, which university course will give you enough training hours to reach your goals? Ask about studio training hours. Ask about performance opportunities. Ask about guest teachers and choreographers. Look at where graduates from these programmes work one, two, three years after graduation. And don't just talk to staff; talk to current students. Delve into the Departmental websites to see what information & resources are there for students. Most websites have their UCAS course info pages, and then their actual working teaching pages. Look for those. This might seem completely left-field, but you might be better not going to university at all, spending a gap year, working in an undemanding job, and taking two classes a day at an advanced level in ballet and contemporary. There will be cities where you can do this. Think of it as putting together your own training programme, to get you to the standard where you can reach the standard which would get you into a vocational school/conservatoire. This might be a more productive year than going to university, with the high costs involved, and finding that the course doesn't give you what you need. Although - and I've said it in a post upthread - there are university dance courses which will give you a good basic professional standard training, but NOT at the intensity of a vocational school. Plymouth and Roehampton spring to mind, as well as Middlesex. Good luck!

Re: Funding: Under student loan/finance arrangements, students can have up to 4 years loan funding (at interest rates below commercial rates) for a first degree. This is because there are some degree courses which are 4 years, but it also allows students who realise they've chosen the wrong course to start again and re-do first year.

Yes, I've seen the same issue that Rowan reports. In my field in a university, it has become increasingly difficult for artists - working bona fide performing artists - from certain countries to get visas to come to us to perform and teach. It's a really complex field, and even though we in the UK are not part of Schengen, we reap the advantages of freedom of movement in the Eurozone. I'm trying to be careful of not debating the referendum here but I know that ballet, like all the performing arts, is an international industry and always has been. We need to have the best we can attract to this country (both students and performers) and we need to be able to send our best (students & performers) out to conquer the world!