Kate_N

I know this is a ballet discussion board, but can I just say - I'm 3 classes in to learning Street Dance. And it's harder than the most advanced ballet class I've ever taken (and I used to study the Cecchetti Advanced Syllabus!) It's fun, but I just cannot get the cool, relaxed style of the rest of the class & especially my lovely teacher. I feel like a dyspraxic puppy running to catch up!

But that is only a problem if you expect a university Dance degree to be the same as a conservatoire degree or diploma. I think that for you, anondancer, your fundamental issue is that you are tending to see your degree as second-best. It's not, it's just different, but if it isn't what you want, go out & audition for the conservatoires. If you don't get in, or get a call back again, then the hard fact is, you may have to reconsider how much you can pursue your original ambitions. But you have the knowledge that you are good enough to get into a very good Dance degree. And re independent work - our students are expected to do one formal timetabled 3 hour "self-directed" session per week (they are taught for 6 hours face to face in the same module, and this is half their workload), as well as other independent work. Those doing modules in choreography or making solo performance are expected to do this work independently, on their own.

Hours of face to face teaching aren't the only things your fees pay for. University buildings, lighting, heating, computers, library, chairs, tables, books in the library. Journal subscriptions - some electronic databases cost in the region of tens of thousands per year for subscriptions. Bursaries for poorer students; subsidies to Student Unions/Guilds. Counselling, disability, and medical services. Disability support for students. Insurance. Admissions costs (yes, Open Days & auditions cost money), advertising, student support, administrative staff. Subsidy of sporting & other recreational facilities. Science labs & materials; dance studios, changing rooms, loo paper. For someone 'reading' an English degree, they really are reading - two to three days a week if they do all the work set. I could go on ... Look at the annual tuition fee charged to non-EU students: that is closer to the real costs of keeping a university going. No tutor I know wants to keep students in a course who don't want to be there. They see you dance each day, and would be in an ideal position to advise you about the standard of your work in these first few weeks, and where your strengths & weaknesses are as a dancer with aspirations to work in the industry.

I love the work of all 3 choreographers, although I've seen less work by van Maanen than the other two. The professional dancer in my family works with an AD who is a friend of Mr Forsythe's so I've heard bits about the way he works. He likes dancers to push themselves and his response to them falling over is that that means they're really pushing themselves & testing their balance technique, and style. So on the basis of third-hand ballet gossip <oops > I think this gives us all full licence to fall over! In the spirit of Mr Forsythe, of course.

That's wonderful - you're already developing the resilience which will be essential in your career. Part of the making of a career, though, is to balance your ultimate goals with the small, everyday steps towards them. So if you're unhappy with your current training, you need to take action each day to improve your situation. So I suppose it's thinking through things like what you can do each day to enhance the likelihood of being more successful in conservatoire auditions. Strength training? Pilates? Extra classes? And so on. In tackling big projects, I use a basic project management technique. I work backwards from my main goal, and divide up my time and tasks appropriately, so I get something accomplished each day towards my goal. For me, it's large research projects and writing books. 80,000 words seems daunting, but not when you draft 500 words a day. So you could use that technique, but apply it to your physical training. A bit like those fitness apps that give you a schedule for building up to a long plank hold, or push ups, or running. Couch to 5k is brilliant for that, and has actually helped me with lots of other dance training ambitions.

I think you need to be prepared for the hard truth that - even for those undertaking conservatoire degrees at colleges such as The Place or Laban, for example - those graduates are unlikely to find full-time work in nationally-recognised contemporary companies (Richard Alston, Jasmin Vardimon, Rambert etc). Most of them will take on project-based work, supplemented by teaching, choreography, community-based dance work, and non-dance jobs to pay the rent. They'll also be travelling out of the UK for work - although post 2018 this will be so very much more difficult (I'd imagine politically very difficult in the years immediately post-Brexit). You might see what is at the moment "Plan B" for you, is actually quite useful, as other aspects of your degree - the contextual studies - will help you apply and land jobs via research & writing skills - particularly as even a contemporary dancer's career is relatively short. Most leave dance as dancers in mid-30s to 40-ish with still another 30-40 years of work ahead!

Yes, I've done several workshops there over the years. And observed company rehearsals in that studio. A beautiful space - but I can see why they're moving - it's very cramped.

I agree. But a dance degree - rather than vocational training - can lead to a dance career, particularly in contemporary dance. I know several people who trained at various universities (Plymouth, UCLAN, as well as DMU) who are working as dancers. Not in companies such as Alston or Vardimon, but dancing + teaching + community work - see the work done by dancers in the Ludus company in Lancaster, for example.

I registered also - we'll have to have a little meet up!

I think this is worth reflecting on & chewing over. University is not school. Nor is it primarily a conservatoire-style training. You will be required to do a lot more independent work, and work on yourself, as well as work with your peers. You're doing a full-length technique class each day, plus training in choreography. That's already pretty intense, and it may well be that at the moment, the tutors are concerned about your fitness levels of you all entering full-time training. It's only about week 4 or 5, of a term which goes to mid-December. I'll bet that by December, you are finding the workload more intense, and there'll be independent research & written work as well. But you know, you might still need to have a deep hard think about what you want, and why you're at university. Are you there only because you weren't seen to be ready for a conservatoire-style training? If so, a year of doing class everyday, plus learning a number of different styles & choreographic techniques, may mean you're better placed for auditioning again this year for an October 2017 start. University places in good programmes are scarce - in my department, I don't want anyone there who doesn't want to be there more than anything else they could do. It's a waste of their time & my expertise & time. But you need to be prepared for the toughness of auditioning a second time with some full-time training under your belt. If you're still not called back, then maybe you need to think differently about how your career might go? Then, your university studies may take on a very different complexion. At the moment, it seems to me from what you write here (and I may be wrong) you see the university course as second-best, and you really want to be at a conservatoire. If you can be seen as up to that training, then go for it! But if you are not offered a place a second tie around, you may need to adopt a very different attitude to your university course. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I wonder if this thread has run its course? There are clear & forthright opinions expressed on all sides about the approach of one poster to her training, but it means that useful information for all adult students has tended to get lost. If Michelle wants to record her ballet adventures, then maybe she could start a thread to do just that (or like Terpsichore - make a wonderful interesting blog!) and it's there for people to read, rather than mixing it in with other sorts of content for adult students more generally. Anna C has kindly started a more general thread, which is probably best for the rest of us to ask questions or swap information & advice.

When I lived in the north west, I went to Move Dancewear in the Northern Quarter, as already mentioned. I found it had great stock, and lots & lots of stuff I wanted! The range was really good - sometimes dance shops only stock stuff for the children, & you have to order everything else, but Move had a great range in the shop.

I've been sitting on my hands, but wow! just wow over this. Such disrespect and arrogance. My teachers are teaching me, not taking class. Teachers demonstrate - they don't dance full out. And I was once taught by a very elderly teacher who never demonstrated, but spoke the exercises from his chair, and demonstrated sitting and/or using his stick. I'm not a trained teacher, but I know enough to see whether a teacher knows what she/he is talking about. And we never know what injuries a teacher is carrying which preclude them from doing certain things. Thing is, learning ballet is learning a complex art. It's not notching up ever more complex steps or repertoire for bragging points. It's not like being an accountant.

Yes, next March. Really exciting!

I'm hoping to. Got to sort a few things, but it looks great. Edited to add: Your post reminded me to book, but it's now sold out <sigh> I shall have to aim to get organised for the Bausch/Forsythe workshop next March. Have a great time - I've done a few ENB Workshops over the years - the highlight was class on the Royal Albert Hall stage & learning how to do piqué turns in the round.

Thanks for the Kathryn Morgan recommendation. I know of her website, but thought it was mainly lifestyle sort of stuff. I'll take a look at her tutorials on rolling.

You need to think about it from their point of view: they need to hire a venue, bring together Artistic Directors, advertise, administer the event, follow up the event. Recruiting employees is a large business cost. If it's done in-house, those costs are absorbed by the organisation and its current employees (I'm thinking of evening shortlisting sessions in my department, weekends spent reading 60 job applications etc etc). If the audition ("interview") is held centrally, for several employing organisations, then those costs can't be absorbed by an organisation. I'd estimate that attending this one audition would be very much more cost-efficient for dancers 'on the market' than travelling to each of the companies individually.

Can I tag on - is there a GOOD (reputable, trustworthy) site (or YouTube channel) which demonstrates some ways to use the roller? I blunder about with some large (but quite soft) rollers in my gym. But those seem to be ones which are long & broad enough to use in exercise classes - aligning one's spine along them and doing core stability exercises. I'd like to start rolling out my tight Achilles & hamstrings, so wondered about the appropriate roller & techniques.

Oh Petersburg is a beautiful city - I visited Petersburg before I ever went to Venice, and Venice suffered by comparison,. even though Tsar Nicholas based his remodelling of Petersburg on Venice. But last time I was there was in the summer - November it will be cold & grey - but the buildings still shine. If you have the time, be prepared to spend a lot of it at the Hermitage. The first time I visited back in the 90s, I only got as far as Rembrandt (they have rooms of them) but the next time we manahed to get into the 20th century. The room full of Matisses is glorious, and full of paintings of dancing people, so relevant for a dancer's visit!

But you know that of course, not all British passport holders are eligible for free education in Britain. If you have lived abroad, have emigrated, or have a UK passport by patriality (one grandparent a UK citizen I think), but otherwise don't live in the UK, you may be a British passport holder, but you might not be eligible for free education etc. It's not always as simple as just holding a UK passport.

Well, they might not audition here, but on this forum we have parents of children/teens who attend vocational schools in other countries. Should those opportunities be blocked? I'm sure it's possible to send an audition video to any number of overseas schools. And I repeat, as far as I know, state-subsidised schools don't displace local (Home/EU) students for overseas students. THey are in addition. And pay full whack. There are only a few of them any way; we're not exactly swamped b overseas students. I think the real issue was touched upon earlier in the thread - the way training from age 8 to 13 or 14 is organised & funded. Most children start the study of ballet in local neighbourhood "church hall" type schools. THese often don't have the standards, or the numbers, or the facilities to offer the kind of fully professional training of, say China or Russia. It's luck of the draw that you find a good local school & teacher - there are enough threads on here bemoaning the limitations in standards, or number of hours. My local studio is fantastic: properly trained in pedagogy, ex-professional dancer principal, with other teachers with full university dance qualifications & professional working careers. But the economics of the local city are such that they can't run the full programme they would like to. And they have their own purpose-renovated studio (not a multi-purpose community hall). THAT'S what needs to change maybe? Some sort of improvement in local; training for the years 8 to 13, when the solid foundation for serious dance training is laid down.

Anyone here thinking of going to the ENB Akram Khan Giselle workshop next month? I'll probably go, so if there are any other Balletcoers dancing there, it'd be nice to say Hello!

As far as I know, in both China & Russia, there isn't necessarily free choice about attending the "top" vocational schools. Children - not teens - are selected for physique and potential. There's not much choice if you're not selected. Poor families see ballet training as a way for a child to get an education & status. The children are trained away from home, from the age of 10 or 11, and the training is full-time & tough. Here - as in the US and Australia (and I'd guess Canada and the EU but I don't have personal experience of those countries) - anyone can set up a local ballet school, and any child can go along for lessons from the age of 18 months ("Baby Ballet"). It's very different - we live with free choice & a commercial system of small local dance schools, not a fully funded State-run system which selects out as well as trains. I just don't think you can make a comparison between the UK and China or Russia. Totally different mindsets & ideologies. British citizens have voted since the election of the Thatcher Tory government, for a low tax, low state subsidy regime. We still are (even if individuals posting here didn't vote that way!) and the vote to leave the EU confirms that. The low tax, private enterprise ideology that we live in is not the same as other countries' investment in state-subsidised ballet (or other arts) training eg China. We, the British people chose this, and maybe there are unintended consequences ... And believe me, in most countries I know, there is the same "XXX country training for XXX citizens/children" It's not that the situation is unique in the UK. And frankly, what defines who a "British child" is? One born here? One who's moved here with his/her parents? One who's grandparents were born here but 2 generations have lived abroad? One who's parents can afford to pay? And so on ...

Calamine lotion - it'll take the shine off, but it makes shoes look clean & neat. And she could remove & wash the ribbons & then resew them.

I love the idea of being part-Neanderthal!