BalletcoForum Moderators Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Hello forum members. We are sorry to have to communicate these words, but recent events impel us to do so. As most of you know, we moderators give our time and efforts to the forum on a voluntary basis, and have been doing so for the past 12 years of our lives. We try our best to navigate a complex world of social media, legal action, finances, etc. etc. As we have said many times, there is much more going on behind the scenes than you are aware of. So, things can get complicated or difficult both for us and our members. We do have be careful about all kinds of things, and we often have to curtail discussion or take down links even if we don't want to. We would also point out once more that if we get sued for any reason, the moderators are the ones who would have to deal with the legal and financial consequences. We do this as we all love our artform and want to give everybody the chance to share the love, exchange ideas and opinions, and learn from each other. So whilst we are happy to put in the time and effort required to run this forum, we are not willing to be insulted, either as a group or as individuals. We put up with enough without having that piled on top of everything else. We are always pleased to receive your constructive criticism, suggestions for improvements (which more often than not we act upon) and other comments. However, insults and personal denigration will no longer be tolerated, so please be aware that anyone being rude or insulting towards the moderators or anyone else may face an immediate ban, either permanent or temporary. We understand that everyone is human and may have an 'off' day, but that doesn't excuse consistent unpleasantness. We don't ban members lightly; when we do, we take into consideration what they have written, how they have written it, how many times in the past they have been reported by other members, and how many times in the past they have been deemed to have breached our AUP (a link to which is provided below). We are sorry to have to say this, but we will no longer host that kind of toxicity on this board. Of course, this applies to anyone being insulted, not just the moderators. We want the forum to be a place where people feel that they can have differing opinions, discussions and debates without fear of nasty comments or insults. The vast majority of our members adhere to this and make the forum the lively place that it is, but as ever it is always the few who can mar it for everyone else. We have had comments from quite a few members who no longer post up, or who would like to but are fearful of doing so, because they are scared of being insulted or swamped. This is not what we want people to feel: we want to encourage an ethos of lively debate and learning, as well as the exchange of reviews and views. From us to you, we thank you for your understanding and co-operation. As a reminder, here is the forum's AUP/Guidelines, to which every registered member agrees to abide when they sign up. https://www.balletcoforum.com/guidelines/ 12 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYSHEL Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I am glad that the moderators have reminded us all of the respect required in our posts. Regarding the recent harsh posts of criticism of Natalia Osipova prompted me, when seeing two of the recent Macmillan programmes at Covent Garden, to ask several ‘regulars’ how they felt about some of the comments. Most of these people are members of the forum and was shocked to hear that SIX people no longer post as they feel almost ‘bullied’ by the tenor of responses they received. Also, a number said they no longer look at the forum as the extreme negative criticisms compromised their enjoyment of the performances they have attended. All those I asked agreed that freedom of speech is paramount, and no views should be suppressed, but the language of recent posts left something to be desired, and in fact one member said that the posts regarding the Ballet Icons Gala (I don’t want to point any fingers here – unlike the 5th Fairy in the Sleeping Beauty Prologue!) could actually be libellous. The person involved in that posting has a role within a respected international ballet charity and should at least attempt to be impartial considering their professional obligations. It easy for us all to hide behind a Forum sobriquet, and those of us in professional roles must be especially mindful of that. I have worked in ballet for 41 years – curating, staging, writing, translating, and latterly editing a professional publication. This governs very much how I express my opinions on the forum. Positive criticism is always a joy to read, the extreme negative stuff not at all, and it only goes to damage those gentle souls mentioned above who have a real desire to be part of a community for the art form they love. If we don’t agree with any posting the best option is silence, not fighting to defend or re-enforce one’s own point of view. If you really dislike something please be moderate in any response you want to share, or better to keep any personal or over-direct criticisms to yourself. We shouldn’t have to call each other out for bad grace which creates an adversarial atmosphere. Let’s all turn over that leaf and move forward. Thanks to the moderators for bringing us into line! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 2 hours ago, AYSHEL said: one member said that the posts regarding the Ballet Icons Gala (I don’t want to point any fingers here – unlike the 5th Fairy in the Sleeping Beauty Prologue!) could actually be libellous. Expressing a robustly expressed personal opinion isn't libel, so long as it's obvious it is an opinion, even though it may be harsh criticism. I don't think anything expressed in that thread as far as I can recall was anything other than opinion? People disagreed strongly with each other and that's their right. In order to succeed in a defamation case it would have to additionally be proved that the person defamed suffered a significant loss of reputation. I'd gently suggest that a sincerely held critical opinion expressed on this forum isn't hugely going to damage the reputation of an international star, or any sparring forum member for that matter! Let's not get too carried away. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYSHEL Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 2 hours ago, Roberta said: Expressing a robustly expressed personal opinion isn't libel, so long as it's obvious it is an opinion, even though it may be harsh criticism. I don't think anything expressed in that thread as far as I can recall was anything other than opinion? People disagreed strongly with each other and that's their right. In order to succeed in a defamation case it would have to additionally be proved that the person defamed suffered a significant loss of reputation. I'd gently suggest that a sincerely held critical opinion expressed on this forum isn't hugely going to damage the reputation of an international star, or any sparring forum member for that matter! Let's not get too carried away. The comment actually came a balletomane who happens to be a legal professional...I am only the messenger here! But the overall point remains that we must remain polite in discourse, and we must not forget that friends and family of many of these dancers we write about do read the forum and some do report back to the dancers themselves. That is my main concern and seems to be that of those I spoke to at the Macmillan triple bill. Robust it MAY be but respectful it MUST be. We must be mindful of this to maintain civility within the group, and respect to the artists themselves or we run the risk of losing readership or offence which would be a shame. There are many ways of writing less than positive criticism more lightly. EG - 'Could not compete with previous memories', 'was too soft grained to express such a dramatic character' etc. Just arbitrary ideas/examples but we must up our game on this to avoid some of the crude superlatives we sometimes see on this site. It would be nice that this would be everyone's 'happy place'. Disagree by all means - or 'debate' as they always say in politics - which circumvents the issues more elegantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 One person's robustly expressed opinion may indeed send another seeking the sal volatile, however, I think we really should take great care before suggesting there could be recourse to legal action and I'm sure the moderators watched with eagle eyes and would have shut down anything considered risky. I'm an internet veteran from the old days of message boards and I think this forum is generally quite tame, not the wild west of many. A statement is not defamatory unless its publication has caused or is likely to cause serious harm to the reputation of the claimant. Defences may be based on truth, public interest, privilege or honest opinion. Don't give anyone ideas. There are too many lawyers happy enough to send off 'letters before action' (they are in the business of making money from clients after all) including to the moderators here even though, in the end, there would be little real chance of success and I think the moderators, sadly, as publishers have already had singed fingers. It's a murky business altogether. Even responding to these letters and claims takes time and money. "The person involved in that posting has a role within a respected international ballet charity and should at least attempt to be impartial considering their professional obligations." I don't know who this is, and unless that person was expressing a view on behalf of that charity in their own name I think they are entitled to express their own opinions here. If that person hasn't said in their posts or bio what their work is I'm not clear of the relevance? Data protection and all that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I think we should all remember the Interweb adage - if you wouldn't say something you're posting to the face of the person you're posting about - then refrain from doing so until you have had a good THINK, especially when posting under an anonymous username. So think 3 times, write/edit twice, post once On another note with my admin hat on: Raising reports using second accounts to 'disguise' yourself, won't work - we know who you are. Changing usernames with little good reason (again, disguising controversial posts?) is getting a little tiresome. It also changes all your old posts, so hardly an effective ploy. 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophoife Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 25 minutes ago, zxDaveM said: On another note with my admin hat on: Raising reports using second accounts to 'disguise' yourself, won't work - we know who you are. Changing usernames with little good reason (again, disguising controversial posts?) is getting a little tiresome. It also changes all your old posts, so hardly an effective ploy. Oh well, at least one thing of which I'm not guilty! Anyone here who wants to find me on any of the socials I use can do so with ease, as I use the same avatar and handle everywhere. Seriously though @zxDaveM the Mods do a terrific job and here's a 🤗 and some👏🏻 for all! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberta Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 29 minutes ago, zxDaveM said: we know who you are. On a lighter note, that does sound very Big Brother! 👀 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 (edited) 6 hours ago, AYSHEL said: The comment actually came a balletomane who happens to be a legal professional. Dunno who you mean but let me say this. I have been professionally preoccupied with libel and defamation for decades but would never rely on the opinions of the average “legal professional”. Libel is a v tricky and specialised area of law and sensible lawyers do not pretend to know about it unless they actually practice it. 6 hours ago, Roberta said: It's a murky business altogether. Even responding to these letters and claims takes time and money. Well said @Roberta Yes our moderators have a horrible time and it is good to be reminded of that. We all need to remember that sadly the world is getting too keen on using lawyers to waste time expressing hurt feelings even though they would fail in court. >>respectful it MUST be Are we really so sure that “respect“ is the best test? Or is the word something of a weasel, easy to pay lip service to but slippery nonetheless? Take an example a few years ago when I was riled up by an awful new show on the ROH stage, Acosta‘s one-act Carmen (pretty robustly criticised on this Forum). Who exactly am I supposed to “respect”? Acosta for his past career as an international star? Presumably yes, respect for that. The dancers for doing their best with dreadful material? Yes again, respect. But Acosta’s failing (imho) early stage attempts at choreography? Respect for what exactly? His “effort”, for his “being so brave”, for “trying so hard”, as if he is a primary school child in an all-shall-have-prizes smiley culture without discrimination, judgement, taste? And what about Kevin? We here discussed at the time whether he should have let that work go on to being performed in front of the public, rather than hold it back until hopefully something better emerged? Is that “respectful” towards him? What does that even mean? Or is “respect” not quite the right optic, given the balance of Kevin’s responsibilities as head of the company? Edited April 5 by Geoff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Just to say that I wish we could have let the very timely message from the moderators stand on its own. 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Absolutely, Capybara. No Mods, no Forum- it is that simple - their carefully worded statement should be read and noted, full stop. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 18 minutes ago, capybara said: Just to say that I wish we could have let the very timely message from the moderators stand on its own. Indeed. For that reason, we have decided to lock this thread. May I please remind everyone that we take a very dim view of people being 'outed' in any way whatsoever on this forum. Not only performers, but fellow forum members. People should be allowed to express their opinions without fear of any aspect of their lives being discussed or revealed without their permission. Everyone is entitled to privacy, and it's not for anyone else to divulge their profession, charity involvements or anything else. May we also remind everyone that this is not a fan site, and that negative comments about performers/performances/choreography/orchestral playing, etc. etc. are perfectly fine. In the case referred to above, the moderators did not find that there were any personal insults to the dancer in question, just strong comments about their technique. Had there been comments about the dancer's physical appearance then these would have been hidden immediately. 7 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 8 hours ago, Roberta said: On a lighter note, that does sound very Big Brother! 👀 LOL - that's me 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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