PBT & Backalast

[Doing Dance 1]

Hi everyone, 

I’ve noticed that a few of my colleagues have been attending PBT training recently, likely fulfilling CPD requirements.

 

I have a few thoughts I’d like to air and get some input on.

 

Firstly, if delivering PBT to students, why have you chosen this as opposed to more traditional strength & conditioning which has a lot more research to back it up? 

 

On looking at PBT videos and articles there is often a reference made to ‘training the correct muscles’

If there are ‘correct’ muscles than what are the so called incorrect ones? 

 

Supplementary training for dancers is thankfully being widely adopted across all areas of dance training, most notably in pre-professional training and professional companies/ environments.

 

However, I have yet to hear of a professional company using PBT in this case. Is this a coincidence? 

 

One ‘take home’ message I have heard in webinars and in articles is that, the more it looks like dance then the less dancers should be doing it.
I.e. We should be ‘supplementing’ their training to fill the gaps inherent in dance training and not just doing dance movement with a theraband, pilates, ball… 

 

https://www.strengthmotionmind.com/post/strength-training-in-dance

 

https://www.menshealth.com/uk/mhsquad/big-reads-membership/a35223268/sports-science-at-the-royal-ballet/

 

https://iadms.org/resources/blog/posts/2018/august/how-effective-is-pilates-as-an-additional-training-program-for-dancers/

 

https://australianballet.com.au/blog/strength-beats-stretch

 

 

Now onto the ‘Backalast’…

 

I find this hugely problematic. 
If a student has problems with their upper back, rounded shoulders etc, then WHY should they be ‘corseted’ into a posture where their clothes are doing the work that their own bodies should be doing. 
 

A student presenting with a weak upper back would surely be an ideal candidate for some strength training?!

 

Thoughts please. 🙏 

 

https://www.backalast.com
 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Doing Dance 1

[Millicent]

I can't answer all of your questions but in terms of the backalast my understanding is that it is about proprioception rather than being corseted or forced into the correct position. Something similar is used for some disabled children in pyhsiotherapy and also in animals eg training young horses, to help them understand their bodies and feel the muscles activating. It is about the muscle/brain connection rather than a physical training method.

[academicdancer]

I have not done any PBT, but from what I can tell, PBT trains the same movement patterns that are used in ballet. I think this is why people refer to "using the correct muscles". In my opinion it is more accurate to say "using the muscles in the same way that is needed for ballet". 

Cross training trains different movement patterns. This is really important, and prevents muscle imbalances that can be so common. Cross training can also target areas that need improvement - like muscular endurance and cardiovascular stamina.

Both are important. I'd even say that, given you are training ballet movement patterns during ballet class, it is more important to add in cross training sessions than PBT if you can only add one supplementary training class.

 

I'd be interested to hear thoughts from someone who knows more about this.

 

[Jan McNulty]

Hello and a belated welcome to the Forum @academicdancer.

[drdance]

Hi, great discussion!

 

I know some ballet teachers who are massive fans of PBT and if it's used for the right purpose then it' great. PBT stands for Progressing Ballet Technique and it is exactly that. It is essentially another 'pilates' type form of exercise, working on strengthening and training the muscles required to do ballet correctly. It is completely dance specific. It is very good for developing ballet technique and helping students/dancers to work the muscles required for ballet technique (ie the 'right muscles').

 

What it ISN'T is cross-training. It will not prevent imbalances (some might argue it could lead to them if its the only form of additional training), it does not help develop aerobic capacity nor does it help strengthen against impact forces (landings etc) which are known to be predictors of injury.

 

As with any form of training, I think it's always important to ask what the outcome goal is first, and then to choose a training method to meet that goal. No-one should be 'doing conditioning' to 'do conditioning'. While it's wonderful that people see the need for supplementary training, I still see a lot of people (mostly on social media though) doing various forms of 'conditioning' without really knowing or having thought about the ultimate goal.

 

Something else to bear in mind when choosing conditioning - and it kind of ties in with the last paragraph - a dancers timetable is usually pretty busy. Therefore choosing what to spend time on is really important. It's no use just adding in more and more classes/exercise forms because the dancers body needs rest and nutrition in order to build the strength in response to the training. So is it really worth adding in another ballet specific class such as pilates or PBT when a dancer is already doing 5 ballet classes a week? If ballet technique needs focus then maybe substitute (shock horror!) one of those classes for PBT so that the overall training load isn't increased. 

 

If you look at sports teams or individual athletes and how they train, only a part of their time is given to sport-specific drills, or working on technique or playing the actual game. The rest is spent on overall strength and fitness development. So why do dancers spend so much more of their time (proportionally) on technique? 

[Peanut68]

I’d also suggest on occasion dancers look to substitute out sone of the physical & technique training for mental training…. Footballers spend classroom time on tactics & have lots of mentor support these days…I’d like to see more of this from grass roots, vocational & through to company level…. It is vastly increased from a few years ago but still seen as weakness in sone quarters if a dancer is not just taking classes classes classes…. Mental stamina & emotional understanding surely as important as physical strength? And I’d also add in more training about artistry & musicality if I could gift the world of dance training a way to allow dancers to be happier & allow their individuality to develop…. And audiences I think would benefit too! 
(I do stress that I speak as a lay person not from any professional standpoint) 

[Aurora3]

Yes, I agree, it is not a "cross training", but a conditioning for ballet! But I like it a lot because it helps me to understand movement patterns that you need in ballet class and it is also a great warm-up for ballet! I think, ballet is not comparable to many sports because it requires very refined coordination more than mere strength, so you can´t apply principles that works for "most sports" to ballet!

The backalast, however, I think, nobody needs. If you need a "reminder" for posture, you can easily make that yourself with tape - much cheaper...!

[drdance]

20 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

Yes, I agree, it is not a "cross training", but a conditioning for ballet! But I like it a lot because it helps me to understand movement patterns that you need in ballet class and it is also a great warm-up for ballet! I think, ballet is not comparable to many sports because it requires very refined coordination more than mere strength, so you can´t apply principles that works for "most sports" to ballet!

The backalast, however, I think, nobody needs. If you need a "reminder" for posture, you can easily make that yourself with tape - much cheaper...!

 

Several point(e)s here!

• The goal of a warm up (if done properly) is to get all major joints lubricated, to increase heart rate, breathing rate and to start progressively loading the joints. I don't think that PBT (which is often slow, controlled and with all or part of the body supported by the floor or a ball) actually achieves this. 
• I would actually argue that most sports require refined co-ordination as much as strength. Ask a footballer / tennis player / high jumper / golfer / badminton player etc etc about accuracy, skill/technical drills and they'll tell you the same thing.
• The physiological demands (intensity, aerobic/anaerobic demands, accuracy and speed of skill etc) of a ballet performance are very similar to that of a football (soccer) match. The only difference is that dancers have to make it look artistic too. Happy to discuss this in more length - I wrote much of the original research on the topic...

 

 

[Kiwi Dancer]

My ballet teacher did the PBT course in 2019 and introduced a half hour session before each class.  I absolutely loved how connected and centred I felt and resolved to do the training when it next became available in our region.  I'm a Pilates teacher and was looking to move more in the direction of training dancers, with a specific interest in how Pilates (and PBT) might benefit ballroom dancers.

 

Fast forward a few years and I did the PBT course during lockdown and enjoyed it but for family reasons I haven't been able to use it, or teach Pilates for some time now.  I do still dance though, and am immensely interested in the topic of dance conditioning/cross training for dancers - particularly how it can benefit older dancers, as I'm now speeding through my 50s!  I also follow the Science in Dance FB page which I've found really interesting as I have a long history of weight training and previously worked as a personal trainer.  My PBT certification is up for renewal soon and by coincidence I wandered onto this page at a time when I've been pondering a return to training clients in the future and wondering exactly what direction I might take.  So many great points raised here - thank you!!

[Jan McNulty]

Hello @Kiwi Dancer and welcome to the Forum!

[Aurora3]

On 12/06/2023 at 17:11, drdance said:

 

Several point(e)s here!

• The goal of a warm up (if done properly) is to get all major joints lubricated, to increase heart rate, breathing rate and to start progressively loading the joints. I don't think that PBT (which is often slow, controlled and with all or part of the body supported by the floor or a ball) actually achieves this. 
• I would actually argue that most sports require refined co-ordination as much as strength. Ask a footballer / tennis player / high jumper / golfer / badminton player etc etc about accuracy, skill/technical drills and they'll tell you the same thing.
• The physiological demands (intensity, aerobic/anaerobic demands, accuracy and speed of skill etc) of a ballet performance are very similar to that of a football (soccer) match. The only difference is that dancers have to make it look artistic too. Happy to discuss this in more length - I wrote much of the original research on the topic...

 

 

Yes, I have heard of the warm up research, but for me personally, I have found out that this kind of warm up is not good for ballet class... I really prefer PBT or floor barre, than all the muscles are ready for class! 

[drdance]

13 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

Yes, I have heard of the warm up research, but for me personally, I have found out that this kind of warm up is not good for ballet class... I really prefer PBT or floor barre, than all the muscles are ready for class! 

 

The warm up I describe is the recommended warm up to prevent injury and to fully prepare the joints and muscles to be loaded and stretched for dance-specific movements. Lying down or non-weightbearing might feel lovely, but physiologically it does very little other than feeling like ballet. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but it shouldn't be the only thing done. It should only be 5-10 minutes and it should be done AFTER the body is properly warmed up.

[Kate_N]

Thanks for the expert information @drdance I find as I get older, I need the kind of warm up you describe. My teacher has us gently jogging around the studio, with "high knees" and "hitting your bottom" with your heels as variations. We also do leg & arm swings, and rotational swings of the torso. 

 

It has parallels with the warm up I do before a very strenuous gym training session (which includes heavy & technical lifts). 

[Doing Dance 1]

On 16/06/2023 at 20:33, Aurora3 said:

Yes, I have heard of the warm up research, but for me personally, I have found out that this kind of warm up is not good for ballet class... I really prefer PBT or floor barre, than all the muscles are ready for class! 

As mentioned above by @drdance this is really not recommended and would not actually be a ‘warm up’.

However, some pre-ballet work could be introduced in the latter stage if you follow the RAMP protocol.

 

• Raise – Increase muscle temperature, core temperature, blood flow, muscle elasticity and neural activation.
• Activate – Engage the muscles in preparation for the upcoming session 
• Mobilize – Focus on movement patterns which will be used during the game.
• Potentiate – Gradually increasing the stress on the body in preparation for the upcoming competition/session.

https://humankinetics.me/2019/03/04/what-is-the-ramp-warm-up/

Edited June 17, 2023 by Doing Dance 1

[Peanut68]

Very very limited experience of PBT but what I did feel was that it was of most benefit almost as a ‘cool down’ & perhaps an opportunity to refine/reconnect  with body positioning & technique to be like a recap to help instil this in muscle memory (as during a class & particularly towards end with more free variations when technique can ‘loosen’ when being free to dance with expression etc). I’d not want anyone to attempt any PBT without first doing a thorough warm up of the muscles & mobilisation of the joints. 

[Aurora3]

I judge a "warm-up" by how I do in class after that. And I found out that this "scientifically proven" warm-up is not good for me personally. There are also more dynamic exercises in floor barre and PBT, maybe this is enough for me to "get the heart rate up". (And I need more for rotation, etc. than this kind of warm up povides to be well prepared for class.) But ballet class starts slow anyway!

[Doing Dance 1]

1 hour ago, Aurora3 said:

I judge a "warm-up" by how I do in class after that. And I found out that this "scientifically proven" warm-up is not good for me personally. There are also more dynamic exercises in floor barre and PBT, maybe this is enough for me to "get the heart rate up". (And I need more for rotation, etc. than this kind of warm up povides to be well prepared for class.) But ballet class starts slow anyway!

I find this discussion fascinating. 

@Aurora3 have you engaged with the dance science resources that are now available to us? 
 

IADMS is always a good place to start. 
https://iadms.org/media/3598/iadms-resource-paper-the-importance-of-a-good-warm-up.pdf

Safe Dance Practice:

 

http://www.humankinetics.com/AcuCustom/Sitename/DAM/142/Safe_Dance_Webinar_Slides.pdf
 

https://humankinetics.me/2015/07/02/safe-dance-practice/amp/

some other interesting articles/ resources:

 

https://australianballet.com.au/blog/strength-beats-stretch

 

https://dancemagazine.com.au/2019/09/why-the-australian-ballet-dancers-quit-stretching/

 

 

 

[Viv]

I find I appreciate floor barre and PBT exercises being incorporated into my regular ballet classes. Sometimes when I am struggling with a particular movement, my teacher will introduce an exercise that places that movement in a different context that allows me to sort of figure out the coordination or which muscles to engage. Then I can take those learnings and reintroduce them back into the ballet context. This has helped specifically with feeling imbalances in my turnout on each side (using a small soft ball), and a fouette releve exercise using a large exercise ball. 

 

I have only done one actual "PBT class", which was with Marie Walton-Mahon, the creator of PBT. I found that personally the exercises set to music moved too quickly for me to get the most benefit. However, I found some of the exercises really beneficial when slowed down a bit and have since incorporated them into my normal exercise routine, with the approval of my physio. I think there is definitely a benefit to these kinds of exercises, as part of a balanced and tested program. The couple of hours a week I am able to make it to class just isn't enough to strengthen what needs to be strengthened sometimes. 

 

As for backalast, I have worn one of the jackets (borrowed from a friend) and I did find that it helped with my awareness of my posture after I took it off. I have a lot of hypermobility and have suffered frequent shoulder dislocations, and this helped me with some of the brain/muscle connections. I only wore it for about 5-10 minutes for plies and a few barre exercises a couple of times, but found it helpful. It's much like similar taping or theraband techniques, but I am allergic to tape and find the therabands cumbersome and slippery. The jacket helped me with my proprioception and to make sense of some of the corrections my teacher had given for a while, but I hadn't really been able to feel. I never bought the jacket myself, but I think for people who get the benefit from tape and therabands and want a tidier option (and can afford the cost), it might be worthwhile. I'm not a scientist or physio or even ballet teacher so I can't comment on the evidentiary basis, just one woman's perspective  

[Doing Dance 1]

It finally happened…

 

I had a 10 year old attend one of my classes asking to do class in her backalast. 
I am not her regular teacher so this caught me off guard. 

I asked why she felt she wanted/ needed to and she said to help with her posture, yes she was a little round shouldered without it at times but no more than the ‘normal’ growing dancer.
Also this class has a uniform policy so was thinking can of worms if one students chooses to wear something different.

 

I quickly said I would ensure my class included some pre-ballet exercises to help her ‘wake up’ her posture muscles in the warm up and would be extra mindful of her alignment and give her some feedback after. 
 

I understand that from their marketing that 

‘Recently, university research in the United States and Australia has scientifically confirmed that Backalast significantly reduces the difference in lumbosacral angle. The research concludes that the garment surpasses other clothing and devices in terms of joint angle replication and trunk proprioception.’

 

https://pbtstore.com/products/backalast?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=20914182379&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrMKR2IiLhQMVa5VQBh1hNAU2EAAYASAAEgJXvfD_BwE
 

Can anyone point me to this research?

I am more than a little dubious of dancers wearing what even PBT describe as a ‘posture corrector BACK BRACE’

 

 

 

 

 

[drdance]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1089313X241232446

[Aurora3]

On 21/06/2023 at 01:04, Doing Dance 1 said:

I find this discussion fascinating. 

@Aurora3 have you engaged with the dance science resources that are now available to us? 
 

IADMS is always a good place to start. 
https://iadms.org/media/3598/iadms-resource-paper-the-importance-of-a-good-warm-up.pdf

Safe Dance Practice:

 

http://www.humankinetics.com/AcuCustom/Sitename/DAM/142/Safe_Dance_Webinar_Slides.pdf
 

https://humankinetics.me/2015/07/02/safe-dance-practice/amp/

some other interesting articles/ resources:

 

https://australianballet.com.au/blog/strength-beats-stretch

 

https://dancemagazine.com.au/2019/09/why-the-australian-ballet-dancers-quit-stretching/

 

 

 

I´m quite familiar with these! But nonetheless, if what science says doesn´t fit my body, I don´t do it! You probably know the saying "the knowledge of today is ther error of tomorrow"? So, science can be wrong...

[drdance]

@Doing Dance 1 You can but try!

 

@Aurora3 Strangely enough I don't know that saying. I actually believe that science does fit your body, but it perhaps doesn't fit your mind. The mind is a powerful thing. 

 

Science is very rarely wrong, actually, because of the rigorous procedures most scientists have to go through before publishing any findings. Things are checked multiple times, by multiple scientists, and the majority of scientists uphold a code of ethics and take this very seriously. And yes I am a dance scientist. I have published work in peer-reviewed journals and have worked with major ballet companies.

 

I appreciate that you believe that the entire dance science knowledge base is not for you, and I respect your decision. I do hope you don't get injured and that you never require the services of a dance medicine or science specialist because as you say, science doesn't fit your body, so they'll be unlikely to help you. I wish you the very best.

 

 

[Aurora3]

I didn´t say they are ALWAYS wrong! I said, the warm up they recommend doesn´t fit my body...