Neverdancedjustamum

That’s great. I remember Pre Senior being taught by Amber Doyle who’s also a brilliant teacher. They would sometimes combine the Senior and Pre-Senior classes too (as they’re on exactly the same time on Saturday mornings) so my DD has had the pleasure of being taught by both teachers.

I think DCs have to audition from when they’re 9 (though this might have changed) but my personal feeling is that this is more for TPA to be able to assess which classes/grades would suit the young dancer rather than the way, for example, RBS associates audition. So if I were to guess, it’s definitely more of the latter of what you said above.

Just to add that I agree for London, Danceworks and Pineapple have great timetables on Saturdays too. However, in our experience and depending on the class and teacher, the classes are very mixed (children up to adults) and some can be more ‘follow-along’ so not ideal if you’re after something which will help your DD progress through consistent feedback and attention as you would (in theory) in a dance school. I say this from experience. My DD has done many of these open classes and masterclasses since she was about 9. If you’re after a great non-syllabus ballet class with lots of feedback and attention (and excellent teaching) and more importantly with similar-aged young dancers, have a look at West London School of Dance’s Pre-senior/Senior ballet class. Both are held in Pineapple on Saturdays term time 9-10.30am. The classes are attended by YDA full time students (hence the standard is very good) but others can register via WLSD. The Senior class is taught by Anna Du Boisson. I think it might still be but you’d need to contact WLSD to check.

I found that the school with the best and most varied Saturday timetable sadly isn’t in London. If you can easily travel to Tring, do check out Tring Park Associates (TPA). Classes are held in the lovely Park Studios of Tring Park School. Even though it’s called “associates”, it’s not exactly like RBS or Central associates (I think Tring’s version of these is their CBA - Classical Ballet Academy). TPA sounds like absolutely what you’re looking for. My DD spent an amazing few years doing TPA classes and their Saturday timetable has so much to offer (RAD grades, ISTD modern and tap, jazz, PBT, Street, contemporary, pointe, non-syllabus ballet, etc). My DD spent many wonderful Saturdays there, from morning to late afternoon, taking multiple classes. She was entered for syllabus exams and progressed well, obtaining excellent results. It was here where she first grew in confidence and her love for dance was nurtured. Your DD will also have the opportunity to make friends as they often spend time together during the breaks in between classes. We left before Covid so I’m not sure if it’s the same set up. Sadly, my DD can’t do Saturdays there anymore due to associates elsewhere but we would totally do it again if we had the chance. It’s a brilliant arrangement, teachers are great, the whole atmosphere is very nurturing and friendly and inclusive (we never experienced drama or competitiveness, which sadly we found is now often prevalent in a lot of dance schools). My DD always felt like she was seen as an individual, everyone was made to feel special in their own way and never did we feel any real or perceived favouritism. This was a few years ago so I hope things have remained the same as I would highly recommend. Again, this is our personal experience so others might think otherwise.

This seems spot on. Just yesterday I saw a top EU vocational school announce their students who I believe received contracts into the company’s corps and there were only 3 females and 1 male. All of whom appear to be nationals of that country. Just a few years ago, I’m pretty sure it was almost double that number from that school into their company including at least one international student. Also within the last few days I saw an announcement about joiners and leavers for a U.K. company and within the leavers section were at least two dancers who only joined the company at the start of the season in what I assumed to have been (at the time) permanent contracts (rather than per show), though I could be wrong.

If she is interested in doing dance long term, from age 11, and would want the stability of being in the same school for at least the first 5 years (preferably on to the ‘upper school’ of the same school, if they have one), I would urge you to look at the recent years’ progression statistics of the schools you are interested in auditioning for. These stats present a very telling story, especially if you are after stability and the mental well-being of not being under pressure all the time. How many of those who start in year 7 are still there in year 11? How many of those progress on to their schools’ upper school/sixth form/etc and for those who don’t, where do they end up going? Is the school system structured in a way that students get to nurture their love for dance and not be under constant scrutiny and pressure to keep their place? Of those who leave before they finish from the school, why did they leave? When they leave, is their love for dance still intact?

Exactly this. Or giving up family holidays, cars, getting second jobs. I think more than the financial side of it is time lost with other family members. I’ve encountered so many young dancers and parents and then I get shocked these young dancers actually have siblings as they never feature in their parents’ social media posts or weekends! It’s easy to get so focused on your DC’s dream that there are things that get given up and you don’t want it to get to a point where you eventually regret it. I already feel guilty spending most weekend day times with DD alone because of her associates class and that’s with having the rest of my week free to spend time with her and the rest of the family. This summer is the first time I will be going with her, just me and her, to a week-long summer intensive overseas but I already feel guilty about the rest of the family not coming with us. That’s a week in the summer we won’t be with them. Support them as best as you can but remember that they are only young once and these times are times with her and other family members you can’t get back. At 9 your DD seems to be doing enough but believe me, depending on where she wants to go for vocational school, you will notice that training for most kids ramp up in years 5 and 6. A lot of those who get places in certain top schools do quite a lot of hours including private lessons, associates, PBT/physio etc etc. there are still some who get in on a couple of classes in the week and an associates scheme but again depending on where she wants to go, you’ll notice it will be very rare for someone who does 1-2 ballet classes within the week and 1 associates scheme (with no extras like private lessons) to get a place at certain schools. And the higher up the years you go, it gets tougher to get a place and you’ll feel the need to do more and more and more (we are talking perhaps entering international comps). You will have to think about whether this is sustainable and worth the dream.

It would very much depend on where she wants to go and at what age. Of course the advice is to focus on your child’s training and to not be influenced or affected by others’ training but the ballet world is very small and it’s very hard not to notice what others are doing. Let’s just say that in some associates’ parents talks there have been discussions on the worrying number of injuries due to overtraining and I also noticed that some of these institutions that release articles on how it’s quality over quantity are also the same ones that recruit heavily students who are extremely trained for many hours, most likely more hours than these articles recommend. It is a very expensive and time consuming journey sadly and I would say it is even more so if your DC is a DD. You will have to weigh the pros and cons and whilst it’s easy to be carried away by the ‘now’, you also have to think long term (career opportunities, effects on family dynamics, possible plan Bs and Cs).

The application seems to open earlier and earlier through the last few years and I think this is because in the last couple of years RBS changed it from a 2 to 3-stage audition. From our experience, most would initially say they (or their DD/DS) only wants an MA place (for some this is true though a good number of course want a full time place and why not tick the box when it’s on the same form) and this becomes a tricky decision when offered a full time place. I might also be wrong but from recent memory, at least the last six or so years, the number of DCs who turned down a full time place this year is unprecedented as far as I know and can remember. I could be wrong but it’s easily double what I remember the last handful of years. In the past there would always be the odd 2 or so, it was so rare I actually remember more those who turned down places over the years. I am not sure what happened in the last 1-2 years but this number appears to have spiked up this year. I actually thought this would go down with the new system of assuring students’ place the first 3 years. The MA class I know has a majority former JAs. Those who weren’t were in the White Lodge finals. Also worth remembering that you don’t necessarily have to audition in the centre your DD wants to attend. There are whole other discussions (and interesting theories) on this on other threads. Lastly, RBS associates has of course the well known reputation but you have to keep in mind that some centres are known to ‘assess’ out (I only know of one centre but I thought I’d say ‘centres’ as I don’t know what happens in other centres though I’ve never heard of any assessed out in others). So keep in mind other great associate schemes like Central’s. I can only assume that beyond that first class, it will be harder to get a place as they go up years as most places would be taken up already by those who were there from year 7. There is a lot of interchange between these two schemes. I’ve seen DCs transfer from one to the other.

I totally agree with you. Come to think of it, the most radiant and happy I’ve seen my DD dancing have been during her high school’s annual dance show. It’s meant to be a competition between houses but everyone takes it in a very good natured congenial way, and they all end up having the time of their lives. I suspect only a very few small minority who participate dance seriously outside of school (her school seems to place more importance on those who excel in sports and all students are highly academic) but everyone gets into it and the atmosphere and buzz around it is an amazing vibe. We always look forward to it every year. It’s the only time my DD’s two loves coincide.

I know exactly what you mean. It’s a tricky balance. It’s a hard place to be. My DD cut down big time since Christmas to the point she didn’t have any in studio ballet classes at all within the week which was a worry for me as she attends quite a competitive associates scheme in the weekend where she is amongst amazing and focused young dancers some of whom are in full time vocational school. My DD’s dancing hours are actually less than what would be called ‘recreational’. I have to tell you, I actually dreaded watching day for probably just the second time ever in my life. In a way, I needn’t have worried. She was absolutely fine and I think a big part of it was because she was dancing knowing there were no expectations from me and there was absolutely no pressure of any sort at all. And when you dance that freely, I think your strengths show (the weaknesses did as well, but she knows about these 😂 and she knows I know). For us I think a good middle ground is trying to keep some of the more competitive elements of dancing that will keep them on their toes. For example, she’s auditioning for something that I personally know she has no chance of getting but it will be good experience for her. She will be the youngest and it will be so outside her comfort zone but she’s ready to take it as a challenge. Every so often, she decides she wants to attend summer intensives and we often go for ones I don’t think she will get so when she does it’s always a good surprise. She will then be among very good dancers in these intensives that I think she will be forced to bring her A game. Within the week she is just a school girl, a teenager. I have to thank my DD for making it easy for us in being in this ‘middle ground’, she is a masterclass at compartmentalising her life. For example, no one in her academic school even knows she dances. And yet her weekends are full of it. My fear now (in a selfish way) is that in a year or two she might change her mind and decide to go all out and audition for schools. It’s so easy to get influenced when she’s often surrounded by brilliant dancers who are so focused and seem to know what path they want to follow in the dance world.

Would love to know what others think of this book. Thanks for the link to the article @Beezie! It now makes me want to read it too. Just out of sheer curiosity thankfully as DD, whilst loving dance and ballet mostly, is more interested in attending school and eventually going to university. I actually have to thank her being neck deep in ballet/associates a few years ago to see clearly around her that realistically she (and we) don’t have it in us to spend as much time and money to ‘join the race’ as such. When we look around us now, we just realise the crazy amount of time and money others of similar age spend on this dream. It’s good that they’re passionate about something but many times I’ve had mums ask me “and for what?” and I can’t answer them truthfully as I don’t think it would be helpful to tell them the stats as we all know it. I suppose any of these young dancers can actually be one in that small % that do achieve their dream and that’s what keeps these young dancers and their parents and families going. I think reading this book will assure me that my DD being realistic from an early age and just wanting to dance simply for the love of it (and nothing else) is the right path and that I should be pleased she insists on having at least 2-3 dance-free days (minimum) within the week and 1-2 weeks of dancing (maximum) in the summer 😂

I’m interested to know more about this too. My understanding is that the ENB Youth Co attend this summer intensive as part of their programme but some places are open to other dancers.

All items now sold.

I’m so sorry, this jacket sold just this morning sorry about this. I was just about to mark it as sold.

Ahaha! Love the mention of the ‘family across the road’ - I think we all have one of these! 😂 It’s the weekends that kill me and I can’t believe I’m even complaining about this since my DD doesn’t do much at all, no classes within the week so nowhere near the time and finance commitment of others. Whenever I start complaining about the expense and travel of our term time Saturdays, the mums of my DD’s school mates do remind me that it’s not too bad at all. One of DD’s friends swim for county (5am starts during the week for training!) and one plays cricket for county (between two siblings the mum and dad are out every day of the week after school for their training). I guess with ballet and dance in general, for me, it’s mostly the expense. Non-dancing friends can’t believe I’m going with DD overseas for a week for what they call “summer school”. To them, that’s madness.

Some universities automatically categorise applicants 21 or older as ‘mature applicants’ (which, for someone my age, makes me feel absolutely ancient). Also depending on which university, the application procedure would be the same as for other students and would still require meeting standard formal entry criteria. I do know some universities take into account work/industry experience in lieu of certain formal requirements, but some would require evidence of academic qualifications completed within x number of years.

I think it would depend on which unis. If I were to guess, ex dancers would also be subject to the same basic entry criteria as other applicants (unless the unis have a special entry criteria for their arts programmes). Where I imagine it would come into play would be during interviews or when admissions panels look at the overall profile of the applicant. It would also be dependent on the programme/course they are applying for. I can say from experience that for unis with hundreds of applicants vying for a place, there will be a good number of applicants who would have ‘special somethings’ in their application, whether this be playing sport at county or national level or being exemplary in music for example. Some unis would only interview shortlisted applicants. My DD and I’s favourite example of an ex-dancer who successfully transitioned to a top university is former RB dancer Beatriz Stix-Brunell who is now a student at Stanford University in the US (undertaking studies not related to arts or performance I think).

BBA jacket still for sale. Almost brand new condition. Happy to sell for £27 including first class tracked postage or £25 first class (not tracked). Size adult small. Comes from a smoke and pet-free home.

Very interesting info! Thanks @oncnp Just curious as to why the Principals have no salary info for RB? It just says “NA”. And for ENB there is no mention of Principals. Perhaps I’m just not looking in the right place and the info on principals is elsewhere in the report and not within the tables.

I can totally understand. My DC was reasonably flexible as a child, did gymnastics for about 2 years. Artistic (I think this is the one with apparatus?), not rhythmic (from which many transition to ballet), so was always more about strength than flexibility and agility. That should have given me a clue then! DC then had multiple significant growth spurts (at one point over 10cm in a year) and their back just got sturdier and stiffer, affecting hips too. Perfect for physical sports but not for ballet, according to the physio. Unfortunately for DC, these are the very things that are immediately visible in terms of the aesthetic of the arabesque line for example. I still don’t know if DC will regain the required flexibility in those areas, especially with DC’s (non)love for stretching but we have recently tried gyrotonics. It’s very early days so I won’t be able to tell if it makes a difference. DC definitely enjoys it more than solo stretching. It is a shame that lack of flexibility is immediately apparent in ballet, as often this overshadows their other strengths. My DC’s strengths are turns and jumps but these appear to be less appreciated than a stunning arabesque line I find. I think the best thing is to speak to your DC’s teacher and a physio who specialises in dancers. They can help guide and are qualified to do so. In terms of physios, I would suggest doing research and not immediately going to the ones usually posted on social media. Whilst they are no doubt very good, I find that the fees they usually charge can be limiting if you want regular sessions. Dig deeper and you will find more affordable but just as qualified ones (who often work with company dancers and vocational school students).

I think you will receive lots of different answers to this query as it would depend on a whole variety of factors. It would depend on age, what your DC does, any targeted areas that need more work, etc, etc. 20 hours seems quite a lot of ballet (to me, but that’s only because my DC only dances in the weekends) especially if the DC isn’t in full time vocational school (and if DC is, they’re probably closely guided and monitored on the stretching and conditioning they need). When my DC started one of the more well known associates scheme in Year 7, they were given this sheet of conditioning exercises that they were told should not take longer than 20 mins. For my DC, who unfortunately does not find stretching fun (DC is very active and restless and likes to be doing all sorts of stuff so the idea of just being in one place, despite trying to listen to music etc, just bores them), trying to get that 20 minutes is already a chore and they’re meant to do this 6 times a week. As DC’s teacher and physio got to know them, DC was also given guidance on which exercises to focus on and for how long. For example my DC isn’t naturally flexible but has a very strong core and just a strong sturdy physique overall. Never had any injuries, never experiences any pains and niggles. Add to this extreme growth spurt within a year and they had been advised to focus their time on stretching rather than conditioning/strength work (DC was told to do 80/20, stretching/conditioning), for example. I think it’s about being guided by those who know your DC well and what your DC is willing to do without killing the joy of the whole thing. I know some DCs who can stretch for hours, all day, every day and they actually enjoy it. Then there are those, like my DC, who’d find half an hour of half-hearted stretching already tortuous.

There probably isn’t a definitive answer to this and I suspect you’ll get mixed responses. I personally prefer in-person but that’s because my DD has an awful track record for anything recorded. She does fairly well in in-person or even live zoom auditions but doesn’t do well in video (after lockdown, she’s now extremely averse to anything that involves videos). If your DD has fared well in the past with video auditions or assessments then go with your instinct and which she is more keen/comfortable to do.

I’m not sure if associates schemes are fine with it but I think if you’re open and transparent and inform them, they usually are. I know in Birmingham there are many RBS JAs who are also Elmhurst Young Dancers and in London, there are RBS SAs who are also associates of ENBS. And a lot of DCs attend Saturday AND Sunday associates. I actually know of young dancers from previous years who were associates of 4 (!) schemes. I don’t think it’s unheard of to be an associate of 2. In fact, I think it’s becoming the norm, now that the dance world and gaining places in vocational schools are increasingly becoming more and more competitive. There are many young dancers who try to squeeze in as much as they can within the week.

They do come up small, and quite short on the body. I find the camisole ones to be the smallest fitting ones. The sleeves (3/4 or full length) tend to be narrower than other brands’ sleeves. However, be careful about sizing up with the styles that are very low back. The arms can possibly fall off the shoulders if you size up. Daria definitely comes up small. I would say the Anna is more consistent size-wise with other brands, so is probably a safer bet. You can also order the Anna customised with different sleeve lengths. The Daria I believe only comes as a camisole.